Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

[Damon_Tor]

This is a simple thought experiment. Rules are: self-cast spells only, no items unless they come from your class somehow. For now we'll exclude summons.

Basic Build:

• Wizard (Bladesinger) 6
• Fighter (Echoknight) 11
• Ranger (Gloomstalker) 3
• Needed ASIs: Magic Initiate (for Eldritch Blast), Metamagic Adept (for Quicken Spell)

When I take the attack action I get 3 attacks. On the first turn of an encounter, I get 4 attacks instead. If I use Unleash incarnation, I get 5. I can replace one of those attacks with Eldritch Blast, which creates 4 attacks of its own, so each attack action gives me 8 attacks. I use action surge to do this twice for a total of 16 attacks. Then I use Quicken Spell to cast Scorching Ray as a bonus action with my 4th level spell slot for another 5 attacks, for a total of 21 attacks. Haste gives me one extra attack, for 22.

(I'm aware this build isn't actually viable for a number of reasons, I was simply getting the number of attacks as high as physically possible as a thought experiment.)

The best I could do with a pure martial build:

• Fighter (Echo Knight) 11
• Ranger (Gloomstalker) 3
• Barbarian (Beast) 3
• Monk (Any?) 3

I could attack 3 times normally per attack action, 4 times if I use my claws, 5 times if I use my claws and it's the first turn of the encounter, 6 times if I use Unleash Incarnation. I can Action Surge to take another attack action, for 12 attacks. Then I use Flurry of Blow and attack two more times, for a total of 14 attacks.

[nickl_2000]

That's pretty darn impressive. Given the right situation you can make more with a Hunter Ranger Utilizing Volley

Hunter Ranger 11, Fighter 2, Sorcerer 7

10 feet from a point gives you a 10ft radius circle.

00x00
0xxx0
xxxxx
0xxx0
00x00

Use your first action to Volley to attack 13 targets, then action surge and Volley against to attack an additional 13 targets. Then quicken a 4th level Scorching Ray for 5 more attacks. Then have haste pre-cast to get one more attack with the bow.

Giving a total 32 attacks in a single round. Sure the situation would rarely even happen (as in never), but we are talking ideals and it would sure be sweet if it did.

[Amnestic]

RAW I'm not sure you can utilise both Bladesinger cantrip-extra attack and fighter extra attack features at the same time, since they're named the same and the features explicitly don't stack.

I think that's silly, personally, and would rule you can stack, them, but it's something to be aware of.

[MaxWilson]

This is a simple thought experiment. Rules are: self-cast spells only, no items unless they come from your class somehow. For now we'll exclude summons.

Basic Build:

• Wizard (Bladesinger) 6
• Fighter (Echoknight) 11
• Ranger (Gloomstalker) 3
• Needed ASIs: Magic Initiate (for Eldritch Blast), Metamagic Adept (for Quicken Spell)

When I take the attack action I get 3 attacks. On the first turn of an encounter, I get 4 attacks instead. If I use Unleash incarnation, I get 5. I can replace one of those attacks with Eldritch Blast, which creates 4 attacks of its own, so each attack action gives me 8 attacks. I use action surge to do this twice for a total of 16 attacks. Then I use Quicken Spell to cast Scorching Ray as a bonus action with my 4th level spell slot for another 5 attacks, for a total of 21 attacks. Haste gives me one extra attack, for 22.

(I'm aware this build isn't actually viable for a number of reasons, I was simply getting the number of attacks as high as physically possible as a thought experiment.)

The best I could do with a pure martial build:

• Fighter (Echo Knight) 11
• Ranger (Gloomstalker) 3
• Barbarian (Beast) 3
• Monk (Any?) 3

I could attack 3 times normally per attack action, 4 times if I use my claws, 5 times if I use my claws and it's the first turn of the encounter, 6 times if I use Unleash Incarnation. I can Action Surge to take another attack action, for 12 attacks. Then I use Flurry of Blow and attack two more times, for a total of 14 attacks.

You can add a reaction attack by taking Martial Adept to learn Parry and then provoking an opportunity attack that misses, for a total of 23 attacks.

(Of course you never actually would want to.)

That's pretty darn impressive. Given the right situation you can make more with a Hunter Ranger Utilizing Volley

Hunter Ranger 11, Fighter 2, Sorcerer 7

10 feet from a point gives you a 10ft radius circle.

00x00
0xxx0
xxxxx
0xxx0
00x00

Use your first action to Volley to attack 13 targets, then action surge and Volley against to attack an additional 13 targets. Then quicken a 4th level Scorching Ray for 5 more attacks. Then have haste pre-cast to get one more attack with the bow.

Giving a total 32 attacks in a single round. Sure the situation would rarely even happen (as in never), but we are talking ideals and it would sure be sweet if it did.

Why only 13 targets? If they are Tiny flying targets, you can fit (4/3*pi*1000 / 125) (33) 5' cubes into a 10' diameter, each of which holds 4 Tiny creatures (Abyssal chickens?). 132 attacks per Volley.

[Hael]

Instead of taking fighter to 11, you could keep it at 3. Then with the additional 8 lvls, could raise your bladesinger high enough to cast simulacrum. If you count that as extra attacks, you will reach 40 (if I count right)

[nickl_2000]

You can add a reaction attack by taking Martial Adept to learn Parry and then provoking an opportunity attack that misses, for a total of 23 attacks.

(Of course you never actually would want to.)



Why only 13 targets? If they are Tiny flying targets, you can fit (4/3*pi*1000 / 125) (33) 5' cubes into a 10' diameter, each of which holds 4 Tiny creatures (Abyssal chickens?). 132 attacks per Volley.

Solid point, although now I'm realizing the supposition is Most attack vs 1 target in 1 turn which makes my entire post invalid.

[Hael]

Also, depending on what you count as an attack, you could use animate objects instead of haste.

[Joe the Rat]

Also, depending on what you count as an attack, you could use animate objects instead of haste.

Yeah, I was eyeing the 32 attacks from a 9th level Conjure Animals I'd go Owls for the flyby so we don't argue over crowding.
(nobody had to say they were good attacks...)

[MaxWilson]

Yeah, I was eyeing the 32 attacks from a 9th level Conjure Animals I'd go Owls for the flyby so we don't argue over crowding.
(nobody had to say they were good attacks...)

Or a bunch of Animate Dead. Or an arbitrarily-large number of Summon Greater Demon + Planar Binding.

[Damon_Tor]

That's pretty darn impressive. Given the right situation you can make more with a Hunter Ranger Utilizing Volley

Solid point, although now I'm realizing the supposition is Most attack vs 1 target in 1 turn which makes my entire post invalid.

Correct, yes. There's too much wiggle room in volley: for example, beyond the "4 tiny creatures can fit in a 5-foot square" problem, you get into problems in situations where creatures are allowed to share each other's spaces. There's no defined number of creatures that can be mounted on another creature, so in theory you could use volley on an elephant and all 500,000 pixies using that elephant as a mount and generate 500,001 attacks.

Instead of taking fighter to 11, you could keep it at 3. Then with the additional 8 lvls, could raise your bladesinger high enough to cast simulacrum. If you count that as extra attacks, you will reach 40 (if I count right)

Also, depending on what you count as an attack, you could use animate objects instead of haste.

Yeah, I was eyeing the 32 attacks from a 9th level Conjure Animals I'd go Owls for the flyby so we don't argue over crowding.
(nobody had to say they were good attacks...)

Or a bunch of Animate Dead. Or an arbitrarily-large number of Summon Greater Demon + Planar Binding.

I did say no summons.

You can add a reaction attack by taking Martial Adept to learn Parry and then provoking an opportunity attack that misses, for a total of 23 attacks.

I thought of that, but there's no way to guarantee the enemy will take the AoO so it felt a little flimsy to me. I tried for a minute to see if I could figure out a way to include Grasp of Hadar and Brace in the build for a reaction attack though.

[MaxWilson]

I did say no summons.

Yeah, sorry, I was illustrating why I agree with you there: allowing summons makes the whole thought experiment unbounded and therefore meaningless.

I thought of that, but there's no way to guarantee the enemy will take the AoO so it felt a little flimsy to me. I tried for a minute to see if I could figure out a way to include Grasp of Hadar and Brace in the build for a reaction attack though.

Ah, so you're going for a guaranteed number of attacks, not just number of attacks-with-high-probability.

I would say that in practice it's rare for DMs to make enemies willingly forgo an AoO, although of course Riposte only works on a miss, which might not be rare.

[Valmark]

Depending on the DM's ruling Haste could give you 4 instead of one attack by substituting Eldritch Blast to the attack thanks to Bladesong. I'm not sure how many would allow it, but it's a possibility.

[Silpharon]

This is like the offering + genji glove combo from ff6. :)

I sure hope you cast Hex beforehand for 22d6 extra damage!

[LudicSavant]

On the 'pure martial' front, you should be able to nab 20 attacks using a Samurai and Strength Before Death + Rapid Attack + Bonus Action Attack.

[J.C.]

Sure. I can do better.

But first, let us lay down some ground rules. Kapische?

[Valmark]

Sure. I can do better.

But first, let us lay down some ground rules. Kapische?

Aren't self-cast spells only, no magic items unless class-given and no summons enough rules?

[Arkhios]

One could argue that the Echo itself is also a summon.

[Frogreaver]

One could argue that the Echo itself is also a summon.

LOL. If it's not a summon then what is it?

[Damon_Tor]

One could argue that the Echo itself is also a summon.

Even so, you are the creature making the attacks, you are simply making the attacks from its space instead of yours.

[Damon_Tor]

On the 'pure martial' front, you should be able to nab 20 attacks using a Samurai and Strength Before Death + Rapid Attack + Bonus Action Attack.

Strength before death is technically two different turns. I would probably allow it if you had a reliable way to trigger strength before death yourself accounted for in the build. I've fiddled with that a bit: 2 levels of moon druid, bonus action wildshape into a tiny creature with 1 HP, climb 10 feet up and fall to take 1d6 damage and technically fulfill the conditions of Strength Before Death, stand up and take your second turn. Though because you have to bonus action wildshape and don't get to fighter 20 that's just 15 attacks.

[Damon_Tor]

Depending on the DM's ruling Haste could give you 4 instead of one attack by substituting Eldritch Blast to the attack thanks to Bladesong. I'm not sure how many would allow it, but it's a possibility.

A well trod debate. However, my interpretation is: "Can't" beats "Can". In this case, the special conditions (1 weapon attack only) of the Haste spell are a "can't" condition which overrules the "can" of the Bladesinger's extra attack.

[LudicSavant]

Strength before death is technically two different turns. I would probably allow it if you had a reliable way to trigger strength before death yourself accounted for in the build. I've fiddled with that a bit: 2 levels of moon druid, bonus action wildshape into a tiny creature with 1 HP, climb 10 feet up and fall to take 1d6 damage and technically fulfill the conditions of Strength Before Death, stand up and take your second turn. Though because you have to bonus action wildshape and don't get to fighter 20 that's just 15 attacks.

You don’t need to do anything like that. You can just, say, fly then let yourself fall while injured.

[Damon_Tor]

You don’t need to do anything like that. You can just, say, fly then let yourself fall while injured.

I suppose you could spend some time before combat punching yourself until you were at 1 HP (unarmed damage is reliable, so you wouldn't be left risking bringing yourself to 0 prematurely): I never disallowed prep-time (and the caster was allowed to pre-buff himself) so I suppose it's only fair. Then all you need to do is attempt an ill-advised backflip: jump 10 feet into the air, fall, break your neck, then you get to take your second turn.

Of course you would be dying at the end of all of this, but I suppose I never made a rule prohibiting suicide builds.

[CapnWildefyr]

When I take the attack action I get 3 attacks. On the first turn of an encounter, I get 4 attacks instead. If I use Unleash incarnation, I get 5. I can replace one of those attacks with Eldritch Blast, which creates 4 attacks of its own, so each attack action gives me 8 attacks. I use action surge to do this twice for a total of 16 attacks. Then I use Quicken Spell to cast Scorching Ray as a bonus action with my 4th level spell slot for another 5 attacks, for a total of 21 attacks. Haste gives me one extra attack, for 22.

Not sure you can swap an attack for a spell -- the attack is just one d20 roll, not the attack action. The cantrip requires an entire action, and you only get 1 + the surge. Still like 16 attacks though.

[Valmark]

Not sure you can swap an attack for a spell -- the attack is just one d20 roll, not the attack action. The cantrip requires an entire action, and you only get 1 + the surge. Still like 16 attacks though.

They are using Bladesinger's feature to swap one attack from the Attack action with a cantrip (Eldritch Blast).

[J.C.]

They are using Bladesinger's feature to swap one attack from the Attack action with a cantrip (Eldritch Blast).

The OP needs to choose between Fighter Extra Attack and Bladesinger Extra Attack. They cannot both be used. So his proposed solution can only produce 20 attacks, correct?

[JNAProductions]

The OP needs to choose between Fighter Extra Attack and Bladesinger Extra Attack. They cannot both be used. So his proposed solution can only produce 21 attacks, correct?

Depends how the DM rules. By RAW, I’d agree, but as a DM, I would allow it. You’ve invested 17 levels into this-might as well be cool.

[J.C.]

Depends how the DM rules. By RAW, I’d agree, but as a DM, I would allow it. You’ve invested 17 levels into this-might as well be cool.

RAW is what counts for this thought experiment, correct?

[Valmark]

The OP needs to choose between Fighter Extra Attack and Bladesinger Extra Attack. They cannot both be used. So his proposed solution can only produce 20 attacks, correct?

Depends. Is the limitation on Extra Attack restricted to the number of attacks? From how the Multiclass rules are written it could go either way.

[JNAProductions]

RAW is what counts for this thought experiment, correct?

For this, probably. So OP’s build is actually down to 16 attacks, by my count.

That being said, it’d work at my table, and many others probably, so perhaps there should be two categories-one for strict RAW, one for reasonable RAF.