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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by J.C. View Post
    I will happily post it in a thread that discriminates between legal and illegal builds.
    So make your own thread, if you want to.

    But right now, you're making big claims without backing them up.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

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  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Does it even matter? Eldariel has clearly already won the thread by reminding us of Hydra Shapechange/True Polymorph. There is no integer so large that a hydra cannot attain that number of attacks.
    I agree that this is almost certainly the way to the most attacks, but I will raise a couple of objections.
    I would like to point out that the Hydra doesn't have a method of healing itself (No allies is assumed), and the net damage per Hydra head is 15 (Take 25, heal 10). A Hydra has 172 hp, so you can only take the damage 10 times, for a net total of 15 heads, which becomes 30 attacks with action surge, and 31 with a bonus action attack from some means. (Battlemaster maneuvers come to mind). With Second wind, which you have from fighter levels you should be able to get one more head, and 2 more attacks.

    In the case of Shapechange and True Polymorph, you're going to have to make concentration checks for each one, and for True Polymorph you don't have action surges. True Polymorph and Magic Jar as permanent buffs that you had prior to this feels against the spirit of it.

    As a last point, you don't really have a reliable way to deal exactly 25 damage to yourself. This certainly seemed to be a point of contention for the OP in the samurai case, and if you do figure a way to deal exactly 25 damage to yourself each time, we're still talking about at minimum 12 rounds of setup, when the other greatest amount of setup is 2 rounds.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by J.C. View Post
    I will happily post it in a thread that discriminates between legal and illegal builds.
    Is discriminate yet another of those words whose meaning eludes you? This thread has been discriminating between legal and illegal builds, and had substantive debates on the legality of builds. I will echo other posters in saying that if that still isn't enough for you, create your own thread.

    Still waiting for the proof on my builds being illegal.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by WaroftheCrans View Post
    Is discriminate yet another of those words whose meaning eludes you? This thread has been discriminating between legal and illegal builds, and had substantive debates on the legality of builds. I will echo other posters in saying that if that still isn't enough for you, create your own thread.

    Still waiting for the proof on my builds being illegal.
    Can you post just your legal builds for consideration? That would mean filtering out those builds that rely on illegally generating Opportunity Attacks from forced movement and any that violate the Extra Attack rule.

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by J.C. View Post
    Can you post just your legal builds for consideration? That would mean filtering out those builds that rely on illegally generating Opportunity Attacks from forced movement and any that violate the Extra Attack rule.
    Nothing you have said has remotely come close to proving that my opportunity attack generation method is illegal. SAC is not RAW. Enter means exactly what I said it meant. As for the Extra Attack rule, that is fiercely debated, but only one of my builds use that, that is to say, Build #2 on my post.

    I will repost one that I am sure that you will have no objections to. Refer to the notes.

    Build 1: V. Human Bladesinger 17/Echo Knight 3
    Feats: Magic initiate or Spellsniper (Eldritch Blast), Eldritch Adept (Grasp Of Hadar), Metamagic Adept (Quicken Spell), Polearm Master, War Caster.
    Setup: Have haste precast on you.
    Action: Take attack action for 1 melee attack and 4 eldritch blasts, and unleash incarnation for 6 attacks. Action surge and repeat, for a total of 12 attacks. The first of these eldritch blasts will draw the target in for a reaction cast EB, for an additional 4 attacks. Bonus action cast Jim's Magic Missile IX for 11 more attacks, and take haste attack action for an additional attack. Total: 27 attacks.
    Notes: If ruled that unleash incarnation can be used on the haste attack (It is my belief that haste is the specific rule in this case), it can go up to 28. If you wish to go with the RAI on PAM, replace PAM and War Caster with Martial Adept (Brace) for a reaction attack, bringing the total down to 24.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by WaroftheCrans View Post
    Nothing you have said has remotely come close to proving that my opportunity attack generation method is illegal. SAC is not RAW. Enter means exactly what I said it meant. As for the Extra Attack rule, that is fiercely debated, but only one of my builds use that, that is to say, Build #2 on my post.

    I will repost one that I am sure that you will have no objections to. Refer to the notes.

    Build 1: V. Human Bladesinger 17/Echo Knight 3
    Feats: Magic initiate or Spellsniper (Eldritch Blast), Eldritch Adept (Grasp Of Hadar), Metamagic Adept (Quicken Spell), Polearm Master, War Caster.
    Setup: Have haste precast on you.
    Action: Take attack action for 1 melee attack and 4 eldritch blasts, and unleash incarnation for 6 attacks. Action surge and repeat, for a total of 12 attacks. The first of these eldritch blasts will draw the target in for a reaction cast EB, for an additional 4 attacks. Bonus action cast Jim's Magic Missile IX for 11 more attacks, and take haste attack action for an additional attack. Total: 27 attacks.
    Notes: If ruled that unleash incarnation can be used on the haste attack (It is my belief that haste is the specific rule in this case), it can go up to 28. If you wish to go with the RAI on PAM, replace PAM and War Caster with Martial Adept (Brace) for a reaction attack, bringing the total down to 24.
    Generating Opportunity Attacks from forced movement is not allowed by the rules. {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by Pirate ninja; 2021-01-18 at 09:59 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by J.C. View Post
    Generating Opportunity Attacks from forced movement is not allowed by the rules. {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
    Like a broken record.
    Polearm Master has a clear statement on how it modifies opportunity attacks. This method of generating opportunity attacks is consistent with Polearm Master. Therefore, this method is allowed by the rules. QED.

    Incidentally, if you read or understood the previous post, you'd know that I would still have 24 attacks without Polearm Master.
    Last edited by Pirate ninja; 2021-01-18 at 10:01 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by J.C. View Post
    Generating Opportunity Attacks from forced movement is not allowed by the rules. {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
    If you go at the end of the post it provides an alternative to using Polearm Master in that manner. It's already cleaned up.
    Last edited by Pirate ninja; 2021-01-18 at 10:00 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    If you go at the end of the post it provides an alternative to using Polearm Master in that manner. It's already cleaned up.
    {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by Pirate ninja; 2021-01-18 at 10:00 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by J.C. View Post
    {Scrub the post, scrub the quote.}
    It is. Stop screeching the same nonsense. If you want the RAI instead of the RAW, that is what the alternative is for.
    Last edited by Pirate ninja; 2021-01-18 at 10:02 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by WaroftheCrans View Post
    It is. Stop screeching the same nonsense. If you want the RAI instead of the RAW, that is what the alternative is for.
    We are simply not agreeing on the rules. You insist on egregiously breaking the Opportunity Attacks rule. If you want my participation you need to adhere to the rules. {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by Pirate ninja; 2021-01-18 at 10:03 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by J.C. View Post
    We are simply not agreeing on the rules. You insist on egregiously breaking the Opportunity Attacks rule. If you want my participation you need to adhere to the rules. {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
    To the bolded bit...

    I don't think we do. You've come in and made a big deal about how you've got a better build, but presented nothing. So... Bye.
    Last edited by Pirate ninja; 2021-01-18 at 10:04 PM.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

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  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by J.C. View Post
    We are simply not agreeing on the rules. You insist on egregiously breaking the Opportunity Attacks rule. If you want my participation you need to adhere to the rules. {Scrub the post, scrub the quote.}
    To spell it out for you. If you can not disprove a rule interpretation, or show that it egregiously (to use your own word) goes against what could be accepted, that means it is RAW, and rules legal. Anything past that is RAI, RAR, RAF or a ruling. These are not considered the standard for rules legal. If you wanted an AL legal build, tough luck. You're stuck with rules as written, in all of its faulty glory.

    Past that, if you're incapable of parsing any information that isn't spoonfed to you, I wish you luck in life.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    To the bolded bit...

    I don't think we do. You've come in and made a big deal about how you've got a better build, but presented nothing. So... Bye.
    You are entirely right, and I really should have come to that conclusion a while ago (I actually did, shortly before my "bait" post, but unwisely decided to continue, not wanting to give him an excuse). Unless he contributes something of serious value, I'm done responding.

    Just as a tally of builds, put into rough categories:
    Shapechange or magic jar:
    Uncapped Hydra: Uncapped
    Enhanced Gloomweaver 36 attacks in a turn
    Eldariel's Hydras for 32 attacks in a turn.
    RaRa's Gloom weaver for 27 attacks in a turn.

    Mainly spellcasters:
    Martial Adept Chronurgist: 37 attacks a turn.
    Build 2.5, the Martial Adept Evoker: 32 attacks in a turn.
    Chronurgist: 32 attacks a turn.
    Build 2, the Hexvoker: 27 attacks in a turn.
    Bladesinger/Fighter MC: 27 attacks in a turn.
    Bracing Chronurgist: 29 attacks in a turn.
    The Bracing hexvoker: 24 attacks in a turn.
    Max's untitled build: 23 attacks in a turn.

    Mixed multiclasses:
    Build 3, OP v3 with PAM: 27 attacks in a turn.
    Build 3, a modified OP with brace: 24 attacks in a turn.
    The OP with Jim's: 23 attacks in a turn.
    The OP: 22 attacks in a turn.

    Pure martials:
    Samurai 20: 22 attacks in 2 connected turns.
    The Martial OP: 14

    If anyone wants to name any of my builds, or offer a build to any category, I'll update this post.
    Last edited by WaroftheCrans; 2021-01-20 at 03:43 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    My solution of 35 attacks is waiting for an agreed upon set of ground rules. If we don't have an agreed upon set of ground rules then it is impossible to evaluate the builds.

    Quote Originally Posted by J.C. View Post
    Sure. I can do better.

    But first, let us lay down some ground rules. Kapische?
    I will go ahead and not reveal my build until some ground rules can be established.

    Meanwhile I will simply modify Rara's build with some of WarOnCrans ILLEGAL allowances.

    Spoiler: Rara1212
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    My idea requires a bit of set up.
    First we need to find a Gloom Weaver(not the Subclass but the Monster/NPC), and take over their body with Magic Jar(Finding one can be replicated with just casting True Polymorph on an object, since they are CR9). This gives us their body, and most of our statistics are replaced with theirs. We retain our class, alignment and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. (Magic Jar won't let us use a targets class features, sadly) We don't get access to the Gloom Weavers Spellcasting but we get their Innate Spellcasting and all their other stuff. Mainly we are after their Multi attack. This lets us make 2 attacks with their spear and cast 1 spell(with casting time of 1 action), with just 1 action. For example, 2 spear attacks and an eldritch blast for 6 attacks.
    For this we need at least 11 lvls in Wizard(or use Bards ability to steal spells), for 6th level spells.

    Next we need 2 levels of Fighter, for Action surge. Easy way to almost double our attacks.

    At this point, we could cast Jim's Magic missile at 6th level, +2 spear attacks with our action(thanks to the Gloomweavers Multi attack) then action surge and do it again(albeit with a 5th level Jim's) for 8+2 + 7+2 = 19 attacks.
    We still got 7 levels, bonus action and our concentration left to spend.

    Lets go to 17th level wizard(can't think of any subclass that gives us extra attacks with this combo), and 3rd level fighter(echo Knight)
    Lets also use Haste on our selves, and a second 1h weapon(and the Dual Wielder feat), or a scimitar of speed(Crown of Stars also works, if precast).

    Now for the full combo:

    We get a new snazzy body, cast haste & summon our Incarnation. Then we use multi attack to cast a 9th level Jim's, and make 2 spear attacks for 11 + 2 attacks. Use our action surge to do it again with an 8th level Jim's(or a 9th if we have the boon, it's just 1 more attack) for 10 + 2 attacks. We use our haste action for 1 attack, and Unleash our Incarnation for 1 extra attack(only when we take the attack action). Lastly we use our bonus action for 1 dualwielder attack, since we took the attack action.
    For a total of 11 + 2 + 10 + 2 + 2 + 1 = 28 attacks.


    His build was corrected to be 27 attacks total (removing the Unleash Incarnation attack)

    If we are going to allow ILLEGAL builds then his build wins among the builds posted so far.

    Drop Dual Wielder for Telekinetic Feat. Add PAM and Warcaster Feats (his build has room for feats).

    The action plays out the same except that instead of bonus action attack with your Dual Wielder you move away from the enemy and let them OA you (who cares?) and bonus action telekinetically shove (shove is an attack) them back into you with the Telekinetic Feat, triggering the ILLEGAL PAM OA and the ILLEGAL ability to cast a spell in place of the PAM OA. Then hit them with a level 7 Jim's Magical Missile for +9 attacks.

    So that is 36 Attacks from Rara's build if it is ILLEGALLY modified.


    So I guess that means I get semi-credit for the best ILLEGAL build so far.

    Of course I have a fully LEGAL build that does 35 attacks (45ish if you allow the ILLEGAL stuff).
    Last edited by J.C.; 2021-01-18 at 11:36 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #105

    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by WaroftheCrans View Post
    I agree that this is almost certainly the way to the most attacks, but I will raise a couple of objections.
    I would like to point out that the Hydra doesn't have a method of healing itself (No allies is assumed), and the net damage per Hydra head is 15 (Take 25, heal 10). A Hydra has 172 hp, so you can only take the damage 10 times, for a net total of 15 heads, which becomes 30 attacks with action surge, and 31 with a bonus action attack from some means. (Battlemaster maneuvers come to mind). With Second wind, which you have from fighter levels you should be able to get one more head, and 2 more attacks.

    In the case of Shapechange and True Polymorph, you're going to have to make concentration checks for each one, and for True Polymorph you don't have action surges. True Polymorph and Magic Jar as permanent buffs that you had prior to this feels against the spirit of it.

    As a last point, you don't really have a reliable way to deal exactly 25 damage to yourself. This certainly seemed to be a point of contention for the OP in the samurai case, and if you do figure a way to deal exactly 25 damage to yourself each time, we're still talking about at minimum 12 rounds of setup, when the other greatest amount of setup is 2 rounds.
    You don't need action surges when you have arbitrarily many heads, nor do you need to deal exactly 25 damage to yourself. Just bite off one of your heads, grow two more (and regain 20 HP), rest when you need to regain HP (can precast Goodberry as a Bard 17 if you want to jumpstart things by growing a few dozen heads right off the bat). Rinse and repeat until you have thousands of heads, if you want.

    As far as setup time goes, how many heads could a character grow in the time it takes someone else to go from level 17 to level 20? You require weeks or years of setup time to hit 20th level and 23-35(?) attacks, but as a hydra Eldariel can get 100 attacks in only a few hours of setup.

    Of course in practice you'd never do this because it's pointless overkill, fencepost security--like putting up a wall a thousand feet high and green feet long. 3000 heads is no better than 100 heads for overcoming Dispel Magic. You'd be far better off True Polymorphing into an Atropal instead and summoning 3000 Wraiths instead.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2021-01-18 at 11:28 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    You don't need action surges when you have arbitrarily many heads, not do you need to deal exactly 25 damage to yourself. Just bite off one of your heads, grow two more (and regain 20 HP), rest when you need to regain HP (can precast Goodberry as a Bard 17 if you want to jumpstart things by growing a few dozen heads right off the bat). Rinse and repeat until you have thousands of heads, if you want.

    Of course in practice you'd never do this because it's pointless overkill, fencepost security--like putting up a wall a thousand feet high and green feet long. 3000 heads is no better than 100 heads for overcoming Dispel Magic. You'd be far better off True Polymorphing into an Atropal instead and summoning 3000 Wraiths instead.
    Well, there is no set way to just bite off your head, and it really goes against the spirit of the challenge. Also, OOTS #326 comes to mind :)

    My reason for listing 32 attacks is that's the most reasonable amount, and the amount Eldariel listed. Using permanent duration true polymorph just makes you into the monster, which is incredibly boring.

  17. - Top - End - #107

    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by WaroftheCrans View Post
    Well, there is no set way to just bite off your head, and it really goes against the spirit of the challenge. Also, OOTS #326 comes to mind :)
    No set way? Sure there is. Take your Multiattack action against yourself until you do at least 25 points of damage, then stop for the turn.

    Quote Originally Posted by WaroftheCrans View Post
    My reason for listing 32 attacks is that's the most reasonable amount, and the amount Eldariel listed. Using permanent duration true polymorph just makes you into the monster, which is incredibly boring.
    Of course. This whole thread is silly. When would you ever care about how many attacks you make at the exclusion of everything else? In actual play the goal isn't to make a lot of attacks or even usually to do a lot of damage--it's to win the war, or at least the fight.

    Nevertheless, turning a PC into a hundred-headed hydra is something I can imagine actually doing in a high level adventure because honestly it sounds like fun, especially if you do it the day before so that when someone finally kills the hydra, they're still dealing with a spellcaster with 9th level spell slots. Getting to walk up to almost any melee monster and go, "You're dead," could be fun for the whole party. They're the hydra, hydra is the anvil. I can see the party warlock having fun (Repelling) Blasting enemies into your opportunity attack reach, the wizard Longstridering Hasting you for more mobility, etc.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2021-01-18 at 11:44 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by J.C. View Post
    My solution of 35 attacks is waiting for an agreed upon set of ground rules. If we don't have an agreed upon set of ground rules then it is impossible to evaluate the builds.



    I will go ahead and not reveal my build until some ground rules can be established.

    Meanwhile I will simply modify Rara's build with some of WarOnCrans ILLEGAL allowances.

    Spoiler: Rara1212
    Show
    My idea requires a bit of set up.
    First we need to find a Gloom Weaver(not the Subclass but the Monster/NPC), and take over their body with Magic Jar(Finding one can be replicated with just casting True Polymorph on an object, since they are CR9). This gives us their body, and most of our statistics are replaced with theirs. We retain our class, alignment and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. (Magic Jar won't let us use a targets class features, sadly) We don't get access to the Gloom Weavers Spellcasting but we get their Innate Spellcasting and all their other stuff. Mainly we are after their Multi attack. This lets us make 2 attacks with their spear and cast 1 spell(with casting time of 1 action), with just 1 action. For example, 2 spear attacks and an eldritch blast for 6 attacks.
    For this we need at least 11 lvls in Wizard(or use Bards ability to steal spells), for 6th level spells.

    Next we need 2 levels of Fighter, for Action surge. Easy way to almost double our attacks.

    At this point, we could cast Jim's Magic missile at 6th level, +2 spear attacks with our action(thanks to the Gloomweavers Multi attack) then action surge and do it again(albeit with a 5th level Jim's) for 8+2 + 7+2 = 19 attacks.
    We still got 7 levels, bonus action and our concentration left to spend.

    Lets go to 17th level wizard(can't think of any subclass that gives us extra attacks with this combo), and 3rd level fighter(echo Knight)
    Lets also use Haste on our selves, and a second 1h weapon(and the Dual Wielder feat), or a scimitar of speed(Crown of Stars also works, if precast).

    Now for the full combo:

    We get a new snazzy body, cast haste & summon our Incarnation. Then we use multi attack to cast a 9th level Jim's, and make 2 spear attacks for 11 + 2 attacks. Use our action surge to do it again with an 8th level Jim's(or a 9th if we have the boon, it's just 1 more attack) for 10 + 2 attacks. We use our haste action for 1 attack, and Unleash our Incarnation for 1 extra attack(only when we take the attack action). Lastly we use our bonus action for 1 dualwielder attack, since we took the attack action.
    For a total of 11 + 2 + 10 + 2 + 2 + 1 = 28 attacks.


    His build was corrected to be 27 attacks total (removing the Unleash Incarnation attack)

    If we are going to allow ILLEGAL builds then his build wins among the builds posted so far.

    Drop Dual Wielder for Telekinetic Feat. Add PAM and Warcaster Feats (his build has room for feats).

    The action plays out the same except that instead of bonus action attack with your Dual Wielder you move away from the enemy and let them OA you (who cares?) and bonus action telekinetically shove (shove is an attack) them back into you with the Telekinetic Feat, triggering the ILLEGAL PAM OA and the ILLEGAL ability to cast a spell in place of the PAM OA. Then hit them with a level 7 Jim's Magical Missile for +9 attacks.

    So that is 36 Attacks from Rara's build if it is ILLEGALLY modified.


    So I guess that means I get semi-credit for the best ILLEGAL build so far.

    Of course I have a fully LEGAL build that does 35 attacks (45ish if you allow the ILLEGAL stuff).
    Thank you for the contribution. A couple things. Using the 3 levels of echo knight that RaRa already has, you can make the attack from the echo's space. With Polearm Master, you can take Martial Adept (pushing attack) instead of telekinetic, and have your echo be 15 feet away and push him with your bonus action attack from PAM. This can take it to 36 attacks legally, as the unleash incarnation does not work with haste, or to 37 illegally. Truthfully, this is RaRa's build, but we can both say that we enhanced it, you by applying the trick I posted to it with the telekinetic feat, and me by coming up with said trick, and adding an extra attack.

    There is nothing in this thread preventing you from posting your legal build. The other builds here are either legal, or shown to be illegal, and the users of this forum understand what makes a build legal or houseruled. If you post a build that puts out 35 attacks in a turn without transformations, it will be the best of its type. If it can make 45 attacks using the PAM trick, then it's also legal. There is nothing preventing you from posting any build in this thread, or taking a trip to the thread "an ecletic collection of fun builds," or simply creating your own thread.

  19. - Top - End - #109
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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    No set way? Sure there is. Take your Multiattack action against yourself until you do at least 25 points of damage, then stop for the turn.
    Oh lol, I had thought you meant to simply bite your head off in some way without dealing more than 25 damage to yourself. (What even are the rules on attacking yourself?)

    And yes, this whole challenge is silly, but several of these don't actually require extraordinary build resources (neither does this really) or massive amount of time spent as basically an npc.

  20. - Top - End - #110

    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by WaroftheCrans View Post
    Oh lol, I had thought you meant to simply bite your head off in some way without dealing more than 25 damage to yourself. (What even are the rules on attacking yourself?)

    And yes, this whole challenge is silly, but several of these don't actually require extraordinary build resources (neither does this really) or massive amount of time spent as basically an npc.
    I think the hydra thing requires few build resources (True Polymorph, and if you want to use it in actual play you also want a good source of healing like Extended Aura of Vitality). I'm not seeing that "massive amounts of time spent" either unless you're trying to get ten of thousands of heads, which why would you?
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2021-01-18 at 11:59 PM.

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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by WaroftheCrans View Post
    Thank you for the contribution. A couple things. Using the 3 levels of echo knight that RaRa already has, you can make the attack from the echo's space. With Polearm Master, you can take Martial Adept (pushing attack) instead of telekinetic, and have your echo be 15 feet away and push him with your bonus action attack from PAM. This can take it to 36 attacks legally, as the unleash incarnation does not work with haste, or to 37 illegally. Truthfully, this is RaRa's build, but we can both say that we enhanced it, you by applying the trick I posted to it with the telekinetic feat, and me by coming up with said trick, and adding an extra attack.

    There is nothing in this thread preventing you from posting your legal build. The other builds here are either legal, or shown to be illegal, and the users of this forum understand what makes a build legal or houseruled. If you post a build that puts out 35 attacks in a turn without transformations, it will be the best of its type. If it can make 45 attacks using the PAM trick, then it's also legal. There is nothing preventing you from posting any build in this thread, or taking a trip to the thread "an ecletic collection of fun builds," or simply creating your own thread.
    Nope. We need an agreed upon set of ground rules to evaluate the builds. I earned my knowledge in PvP and Battle Royale and Tier 4+ play and will not share in a thread that does not distinguish between legal and illegal builds. The SAC provides an official and unequivocal method of evaluating the builds. Your insistence that illegal builds implementing illegal rule expolits that have been long abandoned should be thrown in the mix alongside officially legal builds makes analysis and comparison impossible.

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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by J.C. View Post
    Nope. We need an agreed upon set of ground rules to evaluate the builds. I earned my knowledge in PvP and Battle Royale and Tier 4+ play and will not share in a thread that does not distinguish between legal and illegal builds. The SAC provides an official and unequivocal method of evaluating the builds. Your insistence that illegal builds implementing illegal rule expolits that have been long abandoned should be thrown in the mix alongside officially legal builds makes analysis and comparison impossible.
    A rules exploit is just that, an exploit. It's not illegal any more than optimization is. SAC is rulings, not rules, and provides no methodology for evaluating build, other than additional constraints outside of the RAW.

    {scrubbed}
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-01-19 at 08:47 AM.

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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by WaroftheCrans View Post
    A rules exploit is just that, an exploit. It's not illegal any more than optimization is. SAC is rulings, not rules, and provides no methodology for evaluating build, other than additional constraints outside of the RAW.

    {scrub the post, scrub the quote}
    RAW arguments vary from DM to DM. The SAC provides a governed ruleset and a fixed reference point for what is deemed official. As long as a build adheres to the SAC and the RAW it can be compared and analyzed meaningfully alongside other builds. And with an agreed upon set of rules, competitions and PvPs are possible. You don't have much experience with PvP or else you would see the importance of a third party arbiter and official rulings on controversial matters.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-01-19 at 08:47 AM.

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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by J.C. View Post
    RAW arguments vary from DM to DM. The SAC provides a governed ruleset and a fixed reference point for what is deemed official. As long as a build adheres to the SAC and the RAW it can be compared and analyzed meaningfully alongside other builds. And with an agreed upon set of rules, competitions and PvPs are possible. You don't have much experience with PvP or else you would see the importance of a third party arbiter and official rulings on controversial matters.
    Or maybe they just aren't following a mentality for PvP since nobody ever mentioned that being important in this thread.

    Also, I feel like posting a build with alternative versions for different rulings makes far more sense then being adamant on your own point of view being the correct one.

    WaroftheCrans hasn't even said that the PAM thing is something they believe in- they prefaced the build by saying that it tecnically works by a very strict reading ignoring everything else. Everybody's aware that it's unlikely to fly at several tables- that doesn't make it wrong or unfun or useless. Again, if you don't like it, why not just make your own thread?

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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    Or maybe they just aren't following a mentality for PvP since nobody ever mentioned that being important in this thread.

    Also, I feel like posting a build with alternative versions for different rulings makes far more sense then being adamant on your own point of view being the correct one.

    WaroftheCrans hasn't even said that the PAM thing is something they believe in- they prefaced the build by saying that it tecnically works by a very strict reading ignoring everything else. Everybody's aware that it's unlikely to fly at several tables- that doesn't make it wrong or unfun or useless. Again, if you don't like it, why not just make your own thread?
    I am talking about accurate and truthful data analysis. I don't care what WaroftheCrans does as long as he properly labels things. If he wants to throw in some antiquated rule abuse exploits that have long been discarded by all of the highest RP and PvP tables then by all means go for it as long as you clearly differentiate the official from the unofficial. He is willfully mixing and obscuring to his advantage here. I improved Rara1212's response by +9 to be a top contender. He did not.
    Last edited by J.C.; 2021-01-19 at 03:53 AM.

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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by J.C. View Post
    I am talking about data analysis. I don't care what WaroftheCrans does as long as he properly labels things. If he wants to throw in some antiquated rule abuse exploits that have long been discarded by all of the highest RP and PvP tables then by all means go for it as long as you clearly differentiate the official from the unofficial. He is willfully mixing and obscuring to his advantage here. I improved Rara1212's response to be a top contender. He did not.
    But they did properly label their build. Literally all you have to do is take the offered alternative if you don't like the base one.

    And I strongly doubt "the highest RP and PVP tables" is an objective statement. Even if they were, what another table does has absolutely no authority on an online theorycraft thread were random users can partecipate and say what they want.

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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    But they did properly label their build. Literally all you have to do is take the offered alternative if you don't like the base one.

    And I strongly doubt "the highest RP and PVP tables" is an objective statement. Even if they were, what another table does has absolutely no authority on an online theorycraft thread were random users can partecipate and say what they want.
    No they did not. The proper labels are Official and Unofficial in this case.

    Sorry. Believe it or not, there is an emerging international circuit of professional PvP players. I play D&D for a living. Wrap your head around that.

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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by J.C. View Post
    No they did not. The proper labels are Official and Unofficial in this case.

    Sorry. Believe it or not, there is an emerging international circuit of professional PvP players. I play D&D for a living. Wrap your head around that.
    No? Unofficial doesn't necessarily mean that it works with house rules, which is what it would do if it was violating the rules.

    And having professional PVP players doesn't actually mean that the table is "higher" then others, although that may be what appears to its players.

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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    No? Unofficial doesn't necessarily mean that it works with house rules, which is what it would do if it was violating the rules.

    And having professional PVP players doesn't actually mean that the table is "higher" then others, although that may be what appears to its players.
    Just label stuff OFFICIAL or UNOFFICIAL. Why are you arguing this? What is your angle here? Please clarify!!!
    Last edited by J.C.; 2021-01-19 at 03:44 AM.

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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by J.C. View Post
    No they did not. The proper labels are Official and Unofficial in this case.

    Sorry. Believe it or not, there is an emerging international circuit of professional PvP players. I play D&D for a living. Wrap your head around that.
    That's very surprising to me. Who pays to watch? How much and how many? What venue?
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2021-01-19 at 04:01 AM.

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