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  1. - Top - End - #151

    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by WaroftheCrans View Post
    Chronurgist 10th level feature looks like it would be good for haste. Seems to be the "use an object" category of action

    So using a 4th level level slot we can increase the attacks of the evoker wizards by changing them to chronurgists, adding 5 attacks.
    OP says self-cast spells only, so you can't have anyone else concentrate on Haste for you. So how does this help?

  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnestic View Post
    I have never heard of this. Can you provide links?
    I am also curious for links.
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  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by J.C. View Post
    There is nothing controversial about my solutions.
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  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    OP says self-cast spells only, so you can't have anyone else concentrate on Haste for you. So how does this help?
    No, you misunderstand me. The thought is that using the bead would count as using an object, so you could use the haste granted action to do that. This would bring haste from adding 1 attack, to adding 6 attacks via Jim's Magic Missile IV.
    Last edited by WaroftheCrans; 2021-01-20 at 03:57 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #155

    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by WaroftheCrans View Post
    No, you misunderstand. Using the bead would count as using an object, so you could use the haste granted action to do that. This would bring haste from adding 1 attack, to adding 6 attacks via Jim's Magic Missile IV.
    Ah, got it. Thanks for explaining.

    I personally don't think this works though. It's not a Use An Object action, it's a custom Arcane Abeyance-created action which releases the spell, after which the bead disappears. Not the same thing. (Same reason you can't use Haste's extra action to cast spells out of wands.) But I'll go with however Damon_Tor rules it.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2021-01-20 at 04:02 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Ah, got it. Thanks for explaining.

    I personally don't think this works though. It's not a Use An Object action, it's a custom Arcane Abeyance-created action which releases the spell, after which the bead disappears. Not the same thing. (Same reason you can't use Haste's extra action to cast spells out of wands.) But I'll go with however Damon_Tor rules it.
    It doesn't work for the same reason an artificer can't use haste to to activate his SSI:

    "If an item requires an action to activate, that action isn't a function of the Use an Item action, so a feature such as the rogue's Fast Hands can't be used to activate the item."
    -DMG p. 141

    This rule is in the section of the DMG specifically covering magic items, and so doesn't apply to things like caltrops and ball bearings and vials of acid, which you could use with Haste just fine. But it's difficult to argue that a mote of condensed magic is not a magic item.

  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Ah, got it. Thanks for explaining.

    I personally don't think this works though. It's not a Use An Object action, it's a custom Arcane Abeyance-created action which releases the spell, after which the bead disappears. Not the same thing. But I'll go with however Damon_Tor rules it.
    There is are two ways you can use an item in 5e. Magic Items have one way to activate, all other items another way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Activating an Item
    Activating some magic items requires a user to do something special, such as holding the item and uttering a command word. The description of each item category or individual item details how an item is activated. Certain items use the following rules for their activation.
    If an item requires an action to activate, that action isn't a function of the Use an Item action, so a feature such as the rogue's Fast Hands can't be used to activate the item.
    Quote Originally Posted by Use an Object
    You normally interact with an object while doing something else, such as when you draw a sword as part of an attack. When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action. This action is also useful when you want to interact with more than one object on your turn.
    I'm not sure where the definition of magic items is, but I believe that it is not "any object created by magic." As such, the arcane abeyance would fall under Use an Object. The logic presented in your second sentence is faulty, since no item or object is a "Use an Object" Action, something Jeremy Crawford appears to be unaware of, considering he has stated from his twitter that you can only 'Use an Object" on items that say that is the type of action you use.

    On a side note, is there anything in sorcerer, bard, cleric or druid that would help us? The highest attack builds come from a 1st level wizard spell and 9th level casting progression, but other than the chronurgist's 10th level feature, wizard offers no bonuses.

    Edit: I started this post before Damon Tor's was posted, and I will fall back to that, but if anyone knows where the definition of magic item proper is, that would be great. I feel like there are rules concerning magic items that wouldn't make sense applied to this feature.
    Last edited by WaroftheCrans; 2021-01-20 at 05:25 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #158

    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by WaroftheCrans View Post
    Edit: I started this post before Damon Tor's was posted, and I will fall back to that, but if anyone knows where the definition of magic item proper is, that would be great. I feel like there are rules concerning magic items that wouldn't make sense applied to this feature.
    Rules that don't make sense, sigh. Welcome to 5E.

  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    So what are the top 5 Official builds and their attack counts?

  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Rules that don't make sense, sigh. Welcome to 5E.
    *Welcome to D&D
    Are Magic Items really not specifically defined at any point? What I could find is in the dmg on page 135, where Magic Items are explicitly treasure:
    Magic items are gleaned from the hoards of conquered monsters or discovered in Jong-Jost vaults. Such items grant capabilities a character could rarely have otherwise, or they complement their owner's capabilities in wondrous ways.

    Each magic item has a rarity: common, uncommon, rare, very rare, or legendary. Common magic items, such as a potion of healing, are the most plentiful. Some legendary items, such as the apparatus of Kwalish, are unique. The game assumes that the secrets of creating the most powerful items arose centuries ago and were then gradually lost as a result of wars, cataclysms, and mishaps. Even uncommon items can't be easily created. Thus, many magic items are well-preserved antiquities.
    This rules out class feature created items from being magic items, unless otherwise specified like the artificer's "Replicate Magic Item."

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon_Tor View Post
    It doesn't work for the same reason an artificer can't use haste to to activate his SSI:
    According to Crawford, the spell storing item is not a magic item and is compatible with both Fast Hands and Haste. Normally, I tend to disregard JC, as he isn't the most consistent, and frequently disregards RAW (like his other contradictory statement that unless it explicitly states that it uses "Use an Object" it doesn't), but in this case, there is no RAW to contradict him, it makes sense with what RAW I can find, is internally consistent, and most importantly sides with me.

    "If an item requires an action to activate, that action isn't a function of the Use an Item action, so a feature such as the rogue's Fast Hands can't be used to activate the item."
    -DMG p. 141

    This rule is in the section of the DMG specifically covering magic items, and so doesn't apply to things like caltrops and ball bearings and vials of acid, which you could use with Haste just fine. But it's difficult to argue that a mote of condensed magic is not a magic item.
    That does refer specifically to magic items, and behold, I have argued that a mote of condensed magic is not a magic item. To repeat, "Rules that don't make sense, sigh. Welcome to 5E.[/QUOTE]"

    RAW is such a fun topic
    Last edited by WaroftheCrans; 2021-01-20 at 07:06 PM. Reason: moved the word really in the first paragraph.

  11. - Top - End - #161
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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by WaroftheCrans View Post
    Edit: I started this post before Damon Tor's was posted, and I will fall back to that, but if anyone knows where the definition of magic item proper is, that would be great. I feel like there are rules concerning magic items that wouldn't make sense applied to this feature.
    Keeping it to simple English, a magic item is an item that is magic. We have this for determining whether or not something is magic:

    "Determining whether a game feature is magical is straightforward. Ask yourself these questions about the feature:
    • Is it a magic item?
    • Is it a spell? Or does it let you create the effects of a spell that’s mentioned in its description?
    • Is it a spell attack?
    • Is it fueled by the use of spell slots?
    • Does its description say it’s magical?

    If your answer to any of those questions is yes, the feature is magical."
    -Sage Advice Compendium

    The first point isn't useful to us, as that would be begging the question, but since it lets you create the effects of a spell, is fueled by the use of spell slots, and the description says its magical. I think it's clearly magic as that word is defined above.

    I suppose the question becomes, what is an item. There's no clear definition of "item" in the rules, so basic English will have to suffice, which basically leaves it as a synonym for "object".

  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by WaroftheCrans View Post
    *Welcome to D&DAccording to Crawford, the spell storing item is not a magic item and is compatible with both Fast Hands and Haste. Normally, I tend to disregard JC, as he isn't the most consistent, and frequently disregards RAW (like his other contradictory statement that unless it explicitly states that it uses "Use an Object" it doesn't), but in this case, there is no RAW to contradict him, it makes sense with what RAW I can find, is internally consistent, and most importantly sides with me.
    I'm going to say he's wrong on this one, in that it creates the effect of a spell, which makes it magic as per his own definition of the word.

  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by J.C. View Post
    So what are the top 5 Official builds and their attack counts?
    I will not be using PAM, as Damon Tor has determined he does not want that in his challenge. PAM has been replaced by brace. I have added in brace reaction attack and Arcane Abeyance. The SAC defends Arcane Abeyance's use, but more importantly, RAW does not contradict it, and there is an ongoing discussion about it. Should it be disqualified, drop totals from entries 2-5 by 5 attacks. Time stop is not used.
    1. Hydras: Arbitrarily high.
    2. Xardorok Sunblight : Action = 8, AS = 8, BA = 11, R = 1, HA = 6 Total 34. Instead of a gloomweaver, it's Xardorok Sunblight, CR 5, who you can true polymorph an object into and magic jar into. If you can manage to become Laeral Silverhand, Alter attacks to either 52, 32, or 35. It's weird, and I messed up the initial.
    3. Gloomweaver: Action = 2 + 11, AS = 2 + 10, BA = 1, R = 1, HA = 6. Total: 33
    4. Bracing Bladesinger: Action = 2 + 4, AS = 2 + 4, BA = 11, R = 1, HA = 6. Total 30.
    5. Bracing Chronurgist: 29 attacks in a turn. Gloomweaver, but without spear attacks.


    Quote Originally Posted by Damon_Tor View Post
    Spoiler: SNIP
    Show
    Keeping it to simple English, a magic item is an item that is magic. We have this for determining whether or not something is magic:

    "Determining whether a game feature is magical is straightforward. Ask yourself these questions about the feature:
    • Is it a magic item?
    • Is it a spell? Or does it let you create the effects of a spell that’s mentioned in its description?
    • Is it a spell attack?
    • Is it fueled by the use of spell slots?
    • Does its description say it’s magical?

    If your answer to any of those questions is yes, the feature is magical."
    -Sage Advice Compendium

    The first point isn't useful to us, as that would be begging the question, but since it lets you create the effects of a spell, is fueled by the use of spell slots, and the description says its magical. I think it's clearly magic as that word is defined above.

    I suppose the question becomes, what is an item. There's no clear definition of "item" in the rules, so basic English will have to suffice, which basically leaves it as a synonym for "object".
    It is obviously magical. That's not the question. Not all items that are magical are magic items. Magic Items is a specific designation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon_Tor View Post
    I'm going to say he's wrong on this one, in that it creates the effect of a spell, which makes it magic as per his own definition of the word.
    Yes, it is magical. But not a magic item. We can call this a magical item to make the distinction.
    It doesn't meet the criteria for a magic item. Compare and contrast an artificer's Infuse Item feature, and their Magical Tinkering Feature. Both create a magical item. Infuse item specifically calls it out as being a magic item, while Magical tinkering does not.
    Last edited by WaroftheCrans; 2021-01-20 at 09:49 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #164

    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by WaroftheCrans View Post
    According to Crawford, the spell storing item is not a magic item and is compatible with both Fast Hands and Haste. Normally, I tend to disregard JC, as he isn't the most consistent, and frequently disregards RAW (like his other contradictory statement that unless it explicitly states that it uses "Use an Object" it doesn't), but in this case, there is no RAW to contradict him, it makes sense with what RAW I can find, is internally consistent, and most importantly sides with me.
    Crawford didn't say that. He gave one of his famous non-answers:

    If you use the action of the D&D haste spell to take the Use an Object action, that object can't be a magic item, since Use an Object works only with nonmagical items, as clarified in the DMG.

    If the item of Spell-Storing Item is nonmagical, it's usable with Use an Object. #DnD

    When Crawford says if A then B, that's not the same thing as Crawford saying A therefore B. He's just being cagey. Presumably it's up to your DM to decide whether SSI is a magic item or not and Crawford didn't want to get into that, but it means that Crawford's Tweet is irrelevant to this thread.

  15. - Top - End - #165
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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Crawford didn't say that. He gave one of his famous non-answers:

    If you use the action of the D&D haste spell to take the Use an Object action, that object can't be a magic item, since Use an Object works only with nonmagical items, as clarified in the DMG.

    If the item of Spell-Storing Item is nonmagical, it's usable with Use an Object. #DnD

    When Crawford says if A then B, that's not the same thing as Crawford saying A therefore B. He's just being cagey. Presumably it's up to your DM to decide whether SSI is a magic item or not and Crawford didn't want to get into that, but it means that Crawford's Tweet is irrelevant to this thread.
    I appear to have linked incorrectly. In my defense, I don't use twitter at all, but the previous one addresses that point.

    The D&D artificer's Spell-Storing Item feature doesn't turn an object into a magic item.

    That said, you could use the feature on a magic item.
    This is why he's cagey in the second one, because if you used the feature on a magic item, you can't take the Use An Object Action on it.
    Last edited by WaroftheCrans; 2021-01-20 at 08:35 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #166
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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by WaroftheCrans View Post
    I will not be using PAM, as Damon Tor has determined he does not want that in his challenge. PAM has been replaced by brace. I have added in brace reaction attack and Arcane Abeyance. The SAC defends Arcane Abeyance's use, but more importantly, RAW does not contradict it, and there is an ongoing discussion about it. Should it be disqualified, drop totals from entries 2-5 by 5 attacks. Time stop is not used.
    1. Hydras: Arbitrarily high.
    2. Xardorok Sunblight : Action = 8, AS = 8, BA = 11, R = 1, HA = 6 Total 34. Instead of a gloomweaver, it's Xardorok Sunblight, CR 5, who you can true polymorph an object into and magic jar into. If you can manage to become Laeral Silverhand, increase attacks by 6 to 40.
    3. Gloomweaver: Action = 2 + 11, AS = 2 + 10, BA = 1, R = 1, HA = 6. Total: 33
    4. Bracing Bladesinger: Action = 2 + 4, AS = 2 + 4, BA = 11, R = 1, HA = 6. Total 30.
    5. Bracing Chronurgist: 29 attacks in a turn. Gloomweaver, but without spear attacks.
    Let's get the Arcane Abeyance issue sorted out. Damon Tor has ruled on this already, correct?

    Also, can you clarify and demonstrate how Laeral Silverhand generates her number of attacks?

    Further, can you explain how you get the opponent to move into your reach to trigger Brace reaction attack?
    Last edited by J.C.; 2021-01-20 at 07:58 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #167

    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by WaroftheCrans View Post
    I appear to have linked incorrectly. In my defense, I don't use twitter at all, but the previous one addresses that point.

    The D&D artificer's Spell-Storing Item feature doesn't turn an object into a magic item.

    That said, you could use the feature on a magic item.
    This is why he's cagey in the second one, because if you used the feature on a magic item, you can't take the Use An Object Action on it.
    I had some trouble following your link but I did some Googling and I think this is what you're pointing to: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...37603270012928 Thanks for including the Tweet text, my Twitter-fu is weak enough that I couldn't have found it otherwise. : )

    I typically ignore Crawford's Tweets except to occasionally complain about them, but I'm glad that I understand now which Tweets are motivating your perspective on Haste/SSI.

    Quote Originally Posted by WaroftheCrans View Post
    I will not be using PAM, as Damon Tor has determined he does not want that in his challenge. PAM has been replaced by brace. I have added in brace reaction attack and Arcane Abeyance. The SAC defends Arcane Abeyance's use, but more importantly, RAW does not contradict it, and there is an ongoing discussion about it. Should it be disqualified, drop totals from entries 2-5 by 5 attacks. Time stop is not used.
    1. Hydras: Arbitrarily high.
    2. Xardorok Sunblight : Action = 8, AS = 8, BA = 11, R = 1, HA = 6 Total 34. Instead of a gloomweaver, it's Xardorok Sunblight, CR 5, who you can true polymorph an object into and magic jar into. If you can manage to become Laeral Silverhand, increase attacks by 6 to 40.
    3. Gloomweaver: Action = 2 + 11, AS = 2 + 10, BA = 1, R = 1, HA = 6. Total: 33
    4. Bracing Bladesinger: Action = 2 + 4, AS = 2 + 4, BA = 11, R = 1, HA = 6. Total 30.
    5. Bracing Chronurgist: 29 attacks in a turn. Gloomweaver, but without spear attacks.

    Gloomweaver: Action = 2 + 11, AS = 2 + 10, BA = 1, R = 1, HA = 6. Total: 33
    3. Bracing Bladesinger 17/Echo Knight 3: 30 attacks in a turn.
    4. Bracing Chronurgist: 29 attacks in a turn.
    5.

    It is obviously magical. That's not the question. Not all items that are magical are magic items. Magic Items is a specific designation.

    Yes, it is magical. But not a magic item. We can call this a magical item to make the distinction.
    It doesn't meet the criteria for a magic item. Compare and contrast an artificer's Infuse Item feature, and their Magical Tinkering Feature. Both create a magical item. Infuse item specifically calls it out as being a magic item, while Magical tinkering does not.
    Damor_Tor, can we get a ruling on magic items? If they're allowed, Hunter Ranger 11/Fighter 2 + Two-Bird Sling deserves at least 99 attacks even without going 3D: roughly 12 squares full of velociraptors surrounding a Medium target = 48 Tiny raptors per Volley, plus the target itself, plus Horde Breaker, plus another 48 raptors and the target itself again from an action surge. 48+1+1+48+1 = 99. I'm not going to bother to find an upper limit with this tactic (from Quicken Spell metamagic or whatever), but Volley + Two Bird Sling is clearly higher than anything else except the Hydra.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2021-01-20 at 08:35 PM.

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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I had some trouble following your link but I did some Googling and I think this is what you're pointing to: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...37603270012928 Thanks for including the Tweet text, my Twitter-fu is weak enough that I couldn't have found it otherwise. : )

    I typically ignore Crawford's Tweets except to occasionally complain about them, but I'm glad that I understand now which Tweets are motivating your perspective on Haste/SSI.
    I was just talking about the SSI on a different form and it is definitely one of the most contested features to date. Most of this is contributed to the fact it is a standalone feature with no precedent. The closest I've tracked down is the wand of fear's command option that also has a spell effect without casting said spell but it at least has a set DC to reference and is a magical item so the action economy is clear.

    Its such a fun idea for a feature I personally don't mind all the headspace wasted on trying to extrapolate RAI but I can see why it so irksome.
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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    I was just talking about the SSI on a different form and it is definitely one of the most contested features to date. Most of this is contributed to the fact it is a standalone feature with no precedent. The closest I've tracked down is the wand of fear's command option that also has a spell effect without casting said spell but it at least has a set DC to reference and is a magical item so the action economy is clear.

    Its such a fun idea for a feature I personally don't mind all the headspace wasted on trying to extrapolate RAI but I can see why it so irksome.
    Personally I'm not all that interested in a RAI ruling here because I think the RAW for Artificers is already slightly wrong (in terms of what will be most fun for the players). My preferred way to run Artificer spells is (1) you have to prep individual Artificer "spells" instead of slots, and must have your tinker tools/whatever at the time you do, but (2) they are mechanical devices, and activating an artificer "spell" is NOT a Cast a Spell action, cannot be Counterspelled, and requires no spell components (does require interacting with the device but it's not a somatic component, e.g. could be done even while wearing armor you're not proficient in), although it can still be Dispelled. Concentration spells are inventions which are unstable enough to require constant attention.

    Having rewritten Artificer magic that way, of course I will let you activate your Artificer Bazooka Balls (Fireball) as a Use An Item interaction, because that's literally what you're doing: taking the physical action the Artificer player built into the Bazooka Ball, e.g. pulling the pin and throwing it. A Spell Storing Item is just an invention with multiple uses, e.g. a Spider Man-style web shooter (why webs would be unstable enough to require concentration? player decides, but e.g. maybe they tend to collapse into a two-dimensional web if you don't jerk on the strands in the right rhythm to keep certain harmonics in a standing wave modulation <insert more technobabble here>).

    The classical complaint about AD&D wizards having to memorize specific spells is that it makes you feel like Batman with a utility belt instead of like an actual wizard, but Batman with a utility belt is EXACTLY the right feel for an Artificer. Hopefully the advantages and disadvantages I've created for Artificer magic roughly balance each other out. Probably the most abusive thing you could possibly do with these rules is use Quicken Spell metamagic and an Artificer invention in the same turn, but it's a relatively low-powered exploit (hard to abuse) and frankly I'm not worried about it.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2021-01-20 at 08:50 PM.

  20. - Top - End - #170
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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I had some trouble following your link but I did some Googling and I think this is what you're pointing to: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...37603270012928 Thanks for including the Tweet text, my Twitter-fu is weak enough that I couldn't have found it otherwise. : )
    I accidentally put two https:// in the link. Fixed it now.

    Damor_Tor, can we get a ruling on magic items? If they're allowed, Hunter Ranger 11/Fighter 2 + Two-Bird Sling deserves at least 99 attacks even without going 3D: roughly 12 squares full of velociraptors surrounding a Medium target = 48 Tiny raptors per Volley, plus the target itself, plus Horde Breaker, plus another 48 raptors and the target itself again from an action surge. 48+1+1+48+1 = 99. I'm not going to bother to find an upper limit with this tactic (from Quicken Spell metamagic or whatever), but Volley + Two Bird Sling is clearly higher than anything else except the Hydra.
    Presuming its still the same, he forbade magic items, EXCEPT from class features. If the Two Bird Sling is somehow a common item, you can take artificer for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    I was just talking about the SSI on a different form and it is definitely one of the most contested features to date. Most of this is contributed to the fact it is a standalone feature with no precedent. The closest I've tracked down is the wand of fear's command option that also has a spell effect without casting said spell but it at least has a set DC to reference and is a magical item so the action economy is clear.

    Its such a fun idea for a feature I personally don't mind all the headspace wasted on trying to extrapolate RAI but I can see why it so irksome.
    Quote Originally Posted by Max Wilson
    I typically ignore Crawford's Tweets except to occasionally complain about them, but I'm glad that I understand now which Tweets are motivating your perspective on Haste/SSI.
    Just as a clarification, I don't actually intend to use SSI, but rather AA; artificers don't get the necessary number of slots to take full advantage of. SSI just provides valuable context for the debate on whether AA can be used with haste. Artificer in general in fact provides good context. Here I'm using SSI to set precedent for AA. I think the Crawford tweet shows RAI is on my side, the only issue is where is the RAW. I also agree that Crawford's tweets should be taken with copious amounts of salt.
    Quote Originally Posted by J.C. View Post
    Also, can you clarify and demonstrate how Laeral Silverhand generates her number of attacks?

    Further, can you explain how you get the opponent to move into your reach to trigger Brace reaction attack?
    Actually, I messed up Laeral's, but I'll throw out 2 dubious interpretations that I don't believe is correct to patch that up.

    Laeral Silverhand (from Waterdeep: Dragonheist)
    Laeral makes three attacks with her silver hair and flame tongue, in any combination. She can cast one of her cantrips or 1st-level spells before or after making these attacks.

    I had not recalled it correctly, and thought it outright stated she could cast two cantrips, like Sunblight. Dubious interpretation 1: "She can cast one of her cantrips or 1st level spells before or after making these attacks" uses an inclusive or, meaning she can cast her cantrips 4 times, which would actually increase Sunblight's total by 28 attacks. Highly dubious.

    Dubious interpretation 2: 1st level spells only refers to the spell selection pool, not the slot used. In this case, it increases the gloom weaver's total by 2. This one is more accurate.
    If neither of these dubious interpretations is correct, its ironic that the polymorphed forms are useful strictly in order of decreasing CR.
    Regardless of what interpretation is correct, my statement about her number of attacks is inaccurate.

    As for brace, it's the forced movement gimmick from before with pushing attack or grasp of hadar. Unlike OA's, brace does not have any language saying that it can't be forced movement.

    Brace
    When a creature you can see moves into the reach you have with the melee weapon you're wielding, you can use your reaction to expend one superiority die and make one attack against the creature, using that weapon. If the attack hits, add the superiority die to the weapon's damage roll.

    I'm honestly excited to see the 70 attack build, I've proven to myself that my expectations for the number of attacks can be exceeded.
    Last edited by WaroftheCrans; 2021-01-20 at 08:57 PM.

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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by WaroftheCrans View Post
    Presuming its still the same, he forbade magic items, EXCEPT from class features. If the Two Bird Sling is somehow a common item, you can take artificer for it.
    Ah, thanks, I see it now.

    It's not Common.

  22. - Top - End - #172
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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by WaroftheCrans View Post
    Actually, I messed up Laeral's, but I'll throw out 2 dubious interpretations that I don't believe is correct to patch that up.

    Laeral Silverhand (from Waterdeep: Dragonheist)
    Laeral makes three attacks with her silver hair and flame tongue, in any combination. She can cast one of her cantrips or 1st-level spells before or after making these attacks.

    I had not recalled it correctly, and thought it outright stated she could cast two cantrips, like Sunblight. Dubious interpretation 1: "She can cast one of her cantrips or 1st level spells before or after making these attacks" uses an inclusive or, meaning she can cast her cantrips 4 times, which would actually increase Sunblight's total by 28 attacks. Highly dubious.

    Dubious interpretation 2: 1st level spells only refers to the spell selection pool, not the slot used. In this case, it increases the gloom weaver's total by 2. This one is more accurate.
    If neither of these dubious interpretations is correct, its ironic that the polymorphed forms are useful strictly in order of decreasing CR.
    Regardless of what interpretation is correct, my statement about her number of attacks is inaccurate.

    As for brace, it's the forced movement gimmick from before with pushing attack or grasp of hadar. Unlike OA's, brace does not have any language saying that it can't be forced movement.

    Brace
    When a creature you can see moves into the reach you have with the melee weapon you're wielding, you can use your reaction to expend one superiority die and make one attack against the creature, using that weapon. If the attack hits, add the superiority die to the weapon's damage roll.

    I'm honestly excited to see the 70 attack build, I've proven to myself that my expectations for the number of attacks can be exceeded.
    I agree with you and think that both of the Dubious interpretations about Laeral don't work.

    And the Arcane Abeyance trick has been disallowed. So Xardabrok Sunblight stands at 29, correct?

    However, I think Laeral could tie here. You could Magic Jar into her and you could Shapechange into a Gloom Weaver and one way you could do that is to Shapechange into a Deva and then use it's Change Shape ability to magically polymorph into a Gloom Weaver. You could then drop concentration on the Shapechange and the magical polymorph into the Gloom Weaver would persist until dispelled per RAW.

    That way you get access to Gloom Weaver multiattack (2 attack + 1 spell) and Laeral's multiattack (3 attacks plus cantrip/1st level spell). You don't get her class level spells but the multiattack can use one of your first level spells and that 1st level spell could be Dissonant Whispers which will trigger Warcaster and net you a Jim's Magic Missiles in your reaction channel.

    So . . .

    Lareal Silverhand

    Prep
    Character already has completed: Magic Jar into Laereal, Shapechange (Deva) to magically polymorph into a Gloom Weaver.

    Cast Haste.

    Main: 13 (2 + 11 JMM)
    Action Surge: 4 (3 + 1 Dissonant Whispers)
    Haste Action: 1
    Bonus Action: 1
    Reaction: 10 (JMM)
    Total = 29

    So 29 is what I can squeeze out of Laeral (without revealing my tricks). Compare to Xardabrok.

    Xardabrok

    Main: 8 (4 + 4)
    Action Surge: 8 (4 + 4)
    Haste Action: 1
    Bonus Action: 11 (JMM)
    Reaction: 1 (Brace)
    Total = 29

    I still haven't revealed my tricks yet that can push these numbers further. I am wanting to consolidate what we have so far.



    Incidentally, some mention should be made of Shapechange into Marilith. She puts out good numbers and is a really good overall go-to form for Shapechange.

    Marilith

    Prep
    Contingency:Haste, Cast Shapechange

    Main: 7
    Action Surge: 7
    Haste Action: 1 (Drop concentration on Shapechange, Contingency: Haste)
    Bonus Action: 10 (JMM)
    Reaction: 1 (Brace)
    Total: 26

    She puts out solid numbers and is a great chassis for several tests (e.g. highest nova Melee DPR).

    But the thing to know about her is that if you put PAM (and optionally Sentinel) on her she can pump out as many attacks in a round with her replenishing Reactions as the size of the horde that gangs up on her.

    So if you dropped her into a pool of 60 sharks in a chum suit she gets 60 reaction attacks. Her total number of attacks in a round is Unbounded.

    So if you ever need to hold off a zombie horde (Hodor! Hodor! Hodor!) or are fighting a summoner slinging 32 flying snakes at you a turn, Marilith is one answer. Of course her capacity to do this is not relevant to the thread challenge since each reaction attack occurs on a different turn and not on a single turn.
    Last edited by J.C.; 2021-01-21 at 01:07 AM.

  23. - Top - End - #173
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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Personally I'm not all that interested in a RAI ruling here because I think the RAW for Artificers is already slightly wrong (in terms of what will be most fun for the players). My preferred way to run Artificer spells is (1) you have to prep individual Artificer "spells" instead of slots, and must have your tinker tools/whatever at the time you do, but (2) they are mechanical devices, and activating an artificer "spell" is NOT a Cast a Spell action, cannot be Counterspelled, and requires no spell components (does require interacting with the device but it's not a somatic component, e.g. could be done even while wearing armor you're not proficient in), although it can still be Dispelled. Concentration spells are inventions which are unstable enough to require constant attention.

    Having rewritten Artificer magic that way, of course I will let you activate your Artificer Bazooka Balls (Fireball) as a Use An Item interaction, because that's literally what you're doing: taking the physical action the Artificer player built into the Bazooka Ball, e.g. pulling the pin and throwing it. A Spell Storing Item is just an invention with multiple uses, e.g. a Spider Man-style web shooter (why webs would be unstable enough to require concentration? player decides, but e.g. maybe they tend to collapse into a two-dimensional web if you don't jerk on the strands in the right rhythm to keep certain harmonics in a standing wave modulation <insert more technobabble here>).

    The classical complaint about AD&D wizards having to memorize specific spells is that it makes you feel like Batman with a utility belt instead of like an actual wizard, but Batman with a utility belt is EXACTLY the right feel for an Artificer. Hopefully the advantages and disadvantages I've created for Artificer magic roughly balance each other out. Probably the most abusive thing you could possibly do with these rules is use Quicken Spell metamagic and an Artificer invention in the same turn, but it's a relatively low-powered exploit (hard to abuse) and frankly I'm not worried about it.
    You beat me to it! Ive been working on a pseudo vancian casting system for the artificer. It's almost complete but I'm trying to find the sweet spot for item prep. I think for the restrictions of being a prepared *caster* they should get a few bonus slots/items per day.
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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    I believe that there really isn't a RAW or a RAI argument for the Arcane Abeyance being a magic item, and think that there's a good chance they end up allowed, but that's besides the point I suppose. Without it, Xardabrok is at 29.

    Interesting idea for Laeral, but I don't think it quite works as written for two reasons, 1 of which I can't prove, 1 of which I can. I have never concerned myself with shapechange, magic jar, or true polymorph cheese in my time of playing 5e, and so I don't know the rules to prove this definitively, but I am 90% sure you do not get to keep traits acquired from the Deva's change shape after shapechange ends. If it does work, I recommend posting that in the "A Pun Pun Build is Starting to Look Possible" thread, which is all about gaining permanent abilities, mainly through shape change.

    The part I know doesn't quite work is Dissonant Whispers: Dissonant Whispers forces the target to make a saving throw rather than making an attack roll. It's why I've chosen to use Brace and forced movement to generate reaction attacks, rather than Dissonant Whispers and Warcaster. This only drops it by 1 attack, but that 1 attack does matter. For those who don't have Laerals first level spell multiattack, it's not at all worth it, as you simply move a spell from action cast to reaction cast.

    Mariliths are cool, and it's an interesting idea to drop concentration midway through, and use contingency haste. But as you mentioned, they don't quite making it to compete against the other shapechange forms.

  25. - Top - End - #175

    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    You beat me to it! Ive been working on a pseudo vancian casting system for the artificer. It's almost complete but I'm trying to find the sweet spot for item prep. I think for the restrictions of being a prepared *caster* they should get a few bonus slots/items per day.
    Hmm, interesting. How much are you planning to offer?

    Spoiler: Thought Experiment
    Show

    I'd be open to giving bonus inventions per day based on Int, just like AD&D gives bonus cleric spells for high Wis. That prevents the benefit from being too front-loaded.

    I could imagine offering an extra 1st level invention for Int 14, an extra 2nd level invention for Int 16, an extra 3rd level invention for Int 18, and an extra 4th level invention for Int 20. Since I use spell points this would actually translate into +2 SP at 1st level (requires Int 14), or +5 at 5th level (requires Int 16), or +10 at 9th level (requires Int 18), +16 at 13th level (requires Int 20). Especially considering how cheap it is to prep Artillerist Turrets (2 SP) or Steel Defender repair kits (2 SP) that should give Artificers plenty of room to make inventions.

    I'm honestly not sure it's necessary to give bonus spells, given that I'm already using spell points AND giving offsetting advantages like immunity to Counterspell and not needing verbal components. But I'll keep it in mind as an option for maybe someday.

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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Hmm, interesting. How much are you planning to offer?

    Spoiler: Thought Experiment
    Show

    I'd be open to giving bonus inventions per day based on Int, just like AD&D gives bonus cleric spells for high Wis. That prevents the benefit from being too front-loaded.

    I could imagine offering an extra 1st level invention for Int 14, an extra 2nd level invention for Int 16, an extra 3rd level invention for Int 18, and an extra 4th level invention for Int 20. Since I use spell points this would actually translate into +2 SP at 1st level (requires Int 14), or +5 at 5th level (requires Int 16), or +10 at 9th level (requires Int 18), +16 at 13th level (requires Int 20). Especially considering how cheap it is to prep Artillerist Turrets (2 SP) or Steel Defender repair kits (2 SP) that should give Artificers plenty of room to make inventions.

    I'm honestly not sure it's necessary to give bonus spells, given that I'm already using spell points AND giving offsetting advantages like immunity to Counterspell and not needing verbal components. But I'll keep it in mind as an option for maybe someday.
    I kept the slot style prep for my homebrew and found that just one extra 1st level slot at 8, one extra 2nd level at 13 and one 3rd level slot at 17 to have a very nice feel so far.
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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by J.C. View Post
    So if you dropped her into a pool of 60 sharks in a chum suit she gets 60 reaction attacks. Her total number of attacks in a round is Unbounded.
    It doesn't help for "in a turn" but it's a lovely trick for "in a round". There isn't anything like dissonant whisper that works on multiple targets, right?

    It's fun to see all those crazy ideas, it keeps the brainstorm going!
    Last edited by bid; 2021-01-21 at 12:06 PM.
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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by bid View Post
    It doesn't help for "in a turn" but it's a lovely trick for "in a round". There isn't anything like dissonant whisper that works on multiple targets, right?

    It's fun to see all those crazy ideas, it keeps the brainstorm going!
    You can upcast command for up to 9 targets, but like dissonant whispers, it's not an attack, it's a saving throw. Command doesn't actually deal direct damage, but it takes their action instead of reaction. That's good in this case, as Mariliths get one reaction per turn.

    Still, in a "multiple targets in a round" type of challenge, mariliths would probably not compete with other methods, like volley or other spells.

    You can get a large amount using Warcaster and two Command spells, casting magic missiles at 17 targets on your reactions, but that really doesn't cut it, especially since spell slots run out quickly.

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    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by WaroftheCrans View Post
    I believe that there really isn't a RAW or a RAI argument for the Arcane Abeyance being a magic item, and think that there's a good chance they end up allowed, but that's besides the point I suppose. Without it, Xardabrok is at 29.
    The bead that is generated by Arcane Abeyance is created out of nothing and disappears when the duration expires. It is entirely a creation of magic. If it were a non-magical bead, the bead would be required as a nonmagical component and persist after the duration expired. The SAC guidelines indicate that it is magical.

    Quote Originally Posted by WaroftheCrans View Post
    Interesting idea for Laeral, but I don't think it quite works as written for two reasons, 1 of which I can't prove, 1 of which I can. I have never concerned myself with shapechange, magic jar, or true polymorph cheese in my time of playing 5e, and so I don't know the rules to prove this definitively, but I am 90% sure you do not get to keep traits acquired from the Deva's change shape after shapechange ends. If it does work, I recommend posting that in the "A Pun Pun Build is Starting to Look Possible" thread, which is all about gaining permanent abilities, mainly through shape change.
    The Deva trick works RAW and is frequently allowed in Tier 4 and in PvP. It's a magical polymorph that persists until dispelled or until the Deva is killed or reduced to zero hit points (which doesn't happen when you drop concentration).

    Quote Originally Posted by WaroftheCrans View Post
    The part I know doesn't quite work is Dissonant Whispers: Dissonant Whispers forces the target to make a saving throw rather than making an attack roll. It's why I've chosen to use Brace and forced movement to generate reaction attacks, rather than Dissonant Whispers and Warcaster. This only drops it by 1 attack, but that 1 attack does matter. For those who don't have Laerals first level spell multiattack, it's not at all worth it, as you simply move a spell from action cast to reaction cast.
    Dissonant Whispers enables an OA attack from Warcaster that can be a high attack count spell.

    Quote Originally Posted by WaroftheCrans View Post
    Mariliths are cool, and it's an interesting idea to drop concentration midway through, and use contingency haste. But as you mentioned, they don't quite making it to compete against the other shapechange forms.
    Sure, Marilith doesn't win in the specific category of highest attacks in a turn.

    But, she wins in highest number of attacks in a round (great against hordes), highest melee DPR (great against regular AC), and highest number of Counterspells in a round (great against covens). You can do funky things like Magic Jar into a Nilbolg and be able to shut down a ton of damage an Unbounded number of times.
    Last edited by J.C.; 2021-01-21 at 07:31 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #180

    Default Re: Most attacks vs 1 target in 1 turn: 22? Can anyone do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by J.C. View Post
    The Deva trick works RAW and is frequently allowed in Tier 4 and in PvP. It's a magical polymorph that persists until dispelled or until the Deva is killed or reduced to zero hit points (which doesn't happen when you drop concentration)
    Re: dispelling, please note that Dispel Magic only has the ability to end spells, by RAW anyway. It could end Shapechange, and if that ends the polymorph then fine; but it cannot force a genuine Deva back into Deva form if it is polymorphed.

    Antimagic Shell could though.

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