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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2016

    Default Im not terribly enthuized playing my Palard, any thoughts/fixes for level 9?

    We started a campaign at level 8 and I feel that my concept is good, but I think I'm might not playing him correctly.

    The DM is letting us swap a few things at level 9 if we want - so my question is, can this character be better? and what sort of strategy would you employ to cater to his strengths?

    Or maybe I'm just not RP'ing him correctly and that's why I can't get into him.

    After reading his character sheet - how do you envision him?

    Human
    Glory Paladin 5 / Lore Bard 3

    28 point buy

    Background:
    Soldier

    Feats:
    Shield Master

    Magic Items (5 rares):
    • Mithril Plate Armor
    • Longsword +1
    • Gauntlets of Ogre Power
    • Stone of Goodluck
    • Cloak of Protection

    AC: 22

    Saves:
    Str 6, Dex 2, Con 5, Int 0, Wis 7, Cha 9

    Skills:
    Athletics 10, Persuasion 10, Intimidation 7, and proficiency with 6 other skills

    I took Glory Paladin for Peerless Athlete:
    As a bonus action, you can use your Channel Divinity to augment your athleticism. For the next 10 minutes, you have advantage on Strength (Athletics) and Dexterity (Acrobatics) checks; you can carry, push, drag, and lift twice as much weight as normal; and the distance of your long and high jumps increases by 10 feet (this extra distance costs movement as normal).
    Then with Bard I took Reduce/Enlarge, which now lets me shove/grapple gargantuan creatures (with two round setup)

    The concept is that he has been a soldier/mercenary his whole life and now that he's out he is trying his hand at the performance arts (mostly stand up comedy and one man renditions of Broadway musicals (Cats was his latest)). He is the charismatic face of the party and in combat he can lock down BBEG's 1v1 while supporting the rest of party.

    Pros -
    • I'm a pretty hearty tank even without the Paladin Auras
    • the DM is house ruling that I can attack, shove prone (SM), attack (which has helped).
    • Jack of all Trades and expertise has made me the Swiss Army knife of the group
    • Cutting words / Bardic inspiration have definitely saved people more than once
    • Bless, advantage, and +10 athletics makes it pretty tough to beat me in grapple/shove checks
    • Bless, Guidance (druid/artificer), advantage, and +10 to persuasion makes it fairly likely that I get the info I need


    Cons -
    • A good opportunity for grappling has yet to come up
    • Darkvision is a serious pain (we use roll20 dynamic lighting)
    • I'm not a huge fan of humans, but it seems necessary anytime you use a feat
    • Shield Master, though better with the DM house rule, is still heavily dependent on turn order
    • The lack of spell slots and higher level spells is a pain
    • Inspiring Smite (Glory Paladin) is terrible


    So after reading this -
    • how's the concept?
    • Do you like Shield Master on him (given the DM house rule)?
    • Can I get away with playing a different race?
    • Is grappling/shoving an effective strategy?
    • How are the items?
    • I was planning on going Bard the rest of the way (saves haven't been an issue) - or are Auras necessary?
    • How would you guys RP him?
    • Anything else that seems glaring or that you might swap out at level 9?


    I really do want to like this guy, I think he has a lot going for him in and out of combat which is awesome - I guess I'm just not sure how to play him (I usually play full caster or GWF/PAM).

    Thank you guys for the responses in advanced.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Feb 2017

    Default Re: Im not terribly enthuized playing my Palard, any thoughts/fixes for level 9?

    Three questions:

    -Which other Paladin subclasses do you like?

    -If you're not a fan of human, which races do you like?

    -I don't get how Enlarge can let you grapple Gargantuan creatures, would you mind explaining?

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2020

    Default Re: Im not terribly enthuized playing my Palard, any thoughts/fixes for level 9?

    I’d want pal 6 ASAP, if not for you then the other melee. You also picked a standard multi class that doesn’t really come online until tier3, and you are playing him in the not so great lvls.

    You’re going to be a good tank, and a good face with utility but don’t expect high tier 2 bard lvl shenanigans or sorcadin lvl optimized face rolling. Items look great..
    Last edited by Hael; 2021-01-15 at 01:38 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2016

    Default Re: Im not terribly enthuized playing my Palard, any thoughts/fixes for level 9?

    -Which other Paladin subclasses do you like?
    Never played Paladin before - maybe Devotion?

    -If you're not a fan of human, which races do you like?
    I don't have a favorite, I tend to play a race depending on the class I'm playing.

    -I don't get how Enlarge can let you grapple Gargantuan creatures, would you mind explaining?
    Sorry, we have a Druid that can also cast it - so I cast on myself, he casts on the creature, now I am large and the creature is huge.
    Last edited by Nefariis; 2021-01-15 at 02:23 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Titan in the Playground
     
    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Im not terribly enthuized playing my Palard, any thoughts/fixes for level 9?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nefariis View Post
    -Which other Paladin subclasses do you like?
    Never played Paladin before - maybe Devotion?

    -If you're not a fan of human, which races do you like?
    I don't have a favorite, I tend to play a race depending on the class I'm playing.

    -I don't get how Enlarge can let you grapple Gargantuan creatures, would you mind explaining?
    Sorry, we have a Druid that can also cast it - so I cast on myself, he casts on the creature, now I am large and the creature is huge.
    I don't think that you can stack magical effects effects like that: check chapter 10 of the PHB or the Basic Rules on stacking magical effects. You can't be under the effect of the same spell twice at the same time. Your druid can, however, polymorph you into a Large or Huge Beast, and in the latter form you can grapple gargantuan critters.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2021-01-15 at 03:27 PM.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
    Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Orc in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Feb 2016

    Default Re: Im not terribly enthuized playing my Palard, any thoughts/fixes for level 9?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nefariis View Post
    -Which other Paladin subclasses do you like?
    Never played Paladin before - maybe Devotion?

    -If you're not a fan of human, which races do you like?
    I don't have a favorite, I tend to play a race depending on the class I'm playing.

    -I don't get how Enlarge can let you grapple Gargantuan creatures, would you mind explaining?
    Sorry, we have a Druid that can also cast it - so I cast on myself, he casts on the creature, now I am large and the creature is huge.
    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    I don't think that you can stack magical effects effects like that: check chapter 10 of the PHB or the Basic Rules on stacking magical effects. You can't be under the effect of the same spell twice at the same time. Your druid can, however, polymorph you into a Large or Huge Beast, and in the latter form you can grapple gargantuan critters.
    Emphasis mine. He said he casts it on himself, then the druid casts reduce on the creature. Not they both cast on him.(easy to misunderstand though)

    It works but is dependent on con saves which makes it not a great use due to most gargantuan creatures having a great con.
    Last edited by OzDragon; 2021-01-15 at 03:32 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2016

    Default Re: Im not terribly enthuized playing my Palard, any thoughts/fixes for level 9?

    but we digress!

    I'm just curious how people feel about shield master and shoving/grappling on this build

    because a real alternative would be to play a custom race out of Tasha's

    • start 17 Cha, 15 Con
    • get darkvision (which would definitely be helpful)
    • A Half Cha feat for 18 Cha


    level 4 choose +2 ASI for 20 Cha
    level 9 choose Resilient Con or another half con feat for 16 Con

    So I give up Shield Master for two feats half feats and +1 cha / +1 con

    I would still have +10 Athletics, so I can still shove and grapple without Shield Master, I just wouldnt have the +2 dex to saves and the ability to avoid half damage

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Feb 2017

    Default Re: Im not terribly enthuized playing my Palard, any thoughts/fixes for level 9?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nefariis View Post
    but we digress!

    I'm just curious how people feel about shield master and shoving/grappling on this build

    because a real alternative would be to play a custom race out of Tasha's

    • start 17 Cha, 15 Con
    • get darkvision (which would definitely be helpful)
    • A Half Cha feat for 18 Cha


    level 4 choose +2 ASI for 20 Cha
    level 9 choose Resilient Con or another half con feat for 16 Con

    So I give up Shield Master for two feats half feats and +1 cha / +1 con

    I would still have +10 Athletics, so I can still shove and grapple without Shield Master, I just wouldnt have the +2 dex to saves and the ability to avoid half damage
    I personally wouldn't go for Shield Master if I was going for a grappling build. A shield keeps one of your hands busy and you're likely going to need two if you want to do something once you've grappled the enemy.

    Also while grappling builds can work well, I'm not sure what you want to do with it.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2016

    Default Re: Im not terribly enthuized playing my Palard, any thoughts/fixes for level 9?

    How I envisioned it working was attack, drop sword, grapple, shield master shove with the bonus action.

    Now he is grappled and prone and I got the free first attack in.

    I could give or take the +2 to dex saves - but we are fighting tons of dragons and the "save take no damage" has come in handy a few times.
    Last edited by Nefariis; 2021-01-15 at 06:01 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2020

    Default Re: Im not terribly enthuized playing my Palard, any thoughts/fixes for level 9?

    Yes the Aura level 6 is necessary, particularly since you'll be pumping Cha since you are a Bard. +5 to every save is too good to pass up.

    Other than that, I find it hard to start at mid level and be invested in a character, which maybe doesn't sound like what you want to hear. Dialing up some great abilities and magic items and putting them on a page isn't as fun as earning them. We've played 5 (working on 6) campaigns from level 1 to completion. We set up level 7 characters once, and that lasted 3 sessions before everyone lost interest.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2016

    Default Re: Im not terribly enthuized playing my Palard, any thoughts/fixes for level 9?

    Other than that, I find it hard to start at mid level and be invested in a character, which maybe doesn't sound like what you want to hear. Dialing up some great abilities and magic items and putting them on a page isn't as fun as earning them. We've played 5 (working on 6) campaigns from level 1 to completion. We set up level 7 characters once, and that lasted 3 sessions before everyone lost interest.
    Well everyone else started at level one - I dm'ed the first 7 levels, someone just took over for me, and now I'm jumping into play.


    And Shield Master I guess might still be worth it

    The DM is letting me split my attack action up (attack, shove, attack)

    So it essentially gives me -
    • one free attack (which is half PAM)
    • +2 Dex Save (pretty good)
    • Evasion for a reaction (7th level rogue ability)


    I don't know, I'm clearly wavering back and forth - I need someone to tell me what to do and why
    Last edited by Nefariis; 2021-01-15 at 06:20 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2017

    Default Re: Im not terribly enthuized playing my Palard, any thoughts/fixes for level 9?

    A couple of points ...

    1) Paladin 6 is a priority - the bonus to saving throws is too useful for both you and the party as several folks have mentioned.

    In general, I have found grappling to be less than stellar. Sure you can grapple someone reducing their speed to zero, then knock them prone so that they can't get up. This gives folks advantage on attacks within 5' and disadvantage on ranged attacks (even if it is a dragon or huge creature that you knock prone (RAW)). It sounds good on paper but I've never really seen it work out in practice in the games I have played in. It might be fun for bragging rights - look a grappled a dragon - but by the time you are typically doing that the casters are "Look, I locked down the dragon with a Wall of Force". or similar.

    On the other hand, if the DM gives you monsters one at a time with no reasonable defence against it then it can work quite well in some cases.

    Other people may have different opinions - but personally, I wouldn't invest much in it beyond expertise in athletics then use it when it comes up but I would avoid making it the one thing your character is really good at since I don't think it will come up enough to be worthwhile.

    Also, grappling means that you need a hand free to actually make use of it. This really makes it difficult to use a sword and shield since if you drop the weapon to grapple you are left trying to punch your opponent with unarmed strikes for 1+str damage and not doing much of anything else. On the other hand, you can't use a 2 handed weapon for the same reason so you are likely left using a long sword - with 2 hands when not grappling or with one hand when you choose to grapple.

    It is a pretty big hit to AC and makes shield master pretty useless. Honestly, because of this I wouldn't mix grappling with the shield master feat since you can't do both well at the same time.



    2) If seeing in the dark is an issue then you will either need a race with darkvision or take the Eldritch Adept: Devils Sight feat from Tashas for the ability to see perfectly in the dark. Alternatively carry a light source and give up on stealth. Roll20 makes it easy to have a torch/lantern/other light source and just carry it around with your character.

    3) Multiclassing to bard or sorcerer for extra spell slots takes a LONG time and honestly doesn't make that much difference until much higher levels. A level 9 paladin has spells slots of a 5th level caster while a 6 paladin/3 bard has the slots of a 6th level caster which amounts to one extra 3rd level slot after taking 3 levels of bard - so an extra slot or two for smiting isn't really the best motivation for multiclassing. It starts to make a bigger difference into late tier 3 and tier 4 when you have more bard than paladin levels.

    e.g. a 13 paladin is a 7th level caster while a 6 paladin/7 bard is a 10th level caster giving them a couple of extra 5th level slots. So the multiclass gets higher level slots sooner but it takes a while. (However, keep in mind that the 6 paladin/7 bard still only has access to 4th level spells).

    4) I would tend not to pick a paladin oath just based on the one feature "peerless athlete" unless it is a key element of your character backstory. There are a lot of good flavorful paladin oaths and I would pick the one that makes the most sense for how you think of the character rather than some mechanical benefit.

    Paladins also offer good benefits to higher levels - so level 11 paladin might be worth considering for improved divine smite if you plan on mostly being melee.

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