Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Results 1 to 25 of 25
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2011

    Default In which setting(s) would metagame information be the most valuable?

    So, we've had "which D&D world would you want to live on", and "what would you do if you woke up in Faerun", where it was clear that our knowledge of the setting affected our choices. And we know that our knowledge of the system would let us make much better choices than many of the very poorly built NPCs.

    But that's not really unique to D&D. Put me in Battletech, and I'll build better mechs, and my knowledge of history could certainly change things. And when I played the homebrew Paradox (think Rifts, but good) as myself, my metagame knowledge was trump.

    So, what systems and settings can you think of where metagame information would be game changing? Where, if a character knew what you knew, that would make all the difference?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Zombie

    Join Date
    May 2010

    Default Re: In which setting(s) would metagame information be the most valuable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    And we know that our knowledge of the system would let us make much better choices than many of the very poorly built NPCs.
    This is where "easier said than done" comes in. Players might know that "taking feat X is a better choice than feat Y", but as PCs they would have to do the work to get either one. In the real world, they know that spending their free time studying medicine to become a doctor is an optimal choice, but they still spend 12 hours on a Saturday sitting on the couch playing Xbox in their underwear.
    The Curse of the House of Rookwood: Supernatural horror and family drama.
    Ash Island: Personal survival horror in the vein of Silent Hill.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Troll in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    UK
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: In which setting(s) would metagame information be the most valuable?

    I think what really might be valuable is the background knowledge of the setting that we have and the value it could have within the setting.

    Most players learn a fair bit about the campaign worlds they play in, and the sort of players who frequent these boards learn a lot more. Depending on the world, this information could be more useful than any "game mechanics" info. Admittedly being known to possess what is supposed to be secret knowledge known only by the most powerful entities of a world could be very dangerous too.
    Last edited by Khedrac; 2021-01-15 at 04:02 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2011

    Default Re: In which setting(s) would metagame information be the most valuable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xuc Xac View Post
    This is where "easier said than done" comes in. Players might know that "taking feat X is a better choice than feat Y", but as PCs they would have to do the work to get either one. In the real world, they know that spending their free time studying medicine to become a doctor is an optimal choice, but they still spend 12 hours on a Saturday sitting on the couch playing Xbox in their underwear.
    My family is rife with relatives who studied medicine; I went the software development route. This argument kinda… misses the mark with me. I don't really… "sympathize with" is the closest I can phrase it… the non-Determinator people… or the Determinator people who sell their happiness.

    I would totes rock wizardry in a D&D setting, as "fun", "optimal", and "right up my alley". Just like I did programming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khedrac View Post
    I think what really might be valuable is the background knowledge of the setting that we have and the value it could have winithin the setting.

    Most players learn a fair bit about the campaign worlds they play in, and the sort of players who frequent these boards learn a lot more. Depending on the world, this information could be more useful than any "game mechanics" info. Admittedly being known to possess what is supposed to be secret knowledge known only by the most powerful entities of a world could be very dangerous too.
    Dangerous, yes. Consider the consequences, one must.

    So, any worlds / systems where you think you could "get away with it", without being burned as a witch / interrogated / "what's your security clearance?".

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Titan in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2013

    Default Re: In which setting(s) would metagame information be the most valuable?

    Call of Cthulhu

    *walks away gibbering*

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Telok's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    PRAK

    Default Re: In which setting(s) would metagame information be the most valuable?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    Call of Cthulhu

    *walks away gibbering*
    Metagame knowledge: Don't read old books, make the other guy do it. Don't go first or last, if you can help it don't go in at all and participate by telephone. Arson and TNT, good. Chanting and old buildings, bad.
    Niven's Laws, #5
    If you've nothing to say, say it any way you like. Stylistic innovations, contorted story lines or none, exotic or genderless pronouns, internal inconsistencies, the recipe for preparing your lover as a cannibal banquet: feel free. If what you have to say is important and/or difficult to follow, use the simplest language possible. If the reader doesn't get it then, let it not be your fault.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    Area 51

    Default Re: In which setting(s) would metagame information be the most valuable?

    Planescape or Darksun probably.

    the stuff people can know in those settings can change by orders of magnitude both your quality of life and capacity to overcome challenges.

    i think what you really want though, is some meta that can alter your
    1. social class
    2. stat curve

    technically, if you can do one or the other, you can have both. Planescape factions are notorious for having heavy benefits packages rivaling half-class kits like Bards handbook type stuff. Meanwhile, although i memorized the activation key for dragon orbs from dragon lance, if i were imported to that setting, i dont think that information would ever be as useful as something that could get me into a magic apprentice program or a darksun psionic ashram where i could master powers like photosynthesis, molecular transmutation, or the ability to concentrate water.

    But these all boil down to the principle of Mercantile Capitalism:
    by having awareness of what is valuable, but also how to acquire it easily or cheaply,
    you can then generate a high resource, and exchange it for your other wants and needs.

    Outside D&D? that's tough. Probably Champions Variable Power Pool and Flaw Point Matrix. Even buying it with a 5 point VPP and growing it with life's daily challenges would pwn.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: In which setting(s) would metagame information be the most valuable?

    Like, if you were an Elder Scrolls lore expert and you went to Tamriel couldn't you just immediately ascend to godhood or whatever?

    Like, you could also immediately just erase yourself from existence AFAIK but hey - it's worth a shot.
    Last edited by solidork; 2021-01-16 at 03:41 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Zombie

    Join Date
    May 2010

    Default Re: In which setting(s) would metagame information be the most valuable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    Metagame knowledge: Don't read old books, make the other guy do it. Don't go first or last, if you can help it don't go in at all and participate by telephone. Arson and TNT, good. Chanting and old buildings, bad.
    But you already know what's in those old books. In the stories, people read the Necronomicon all the time with no issues. The problem was reading it and then seeing proof that it's true.

    The narrator of "Pickman's Model" was a big fan of Pickman's paintings until he discovered that their subjects were real. Imagine how much you'd freak out if you discovered Steven King had actually been writing non-fiction this whole time and just claiming it was fiction in order to sell books and impress people with his "imagination".
    The Curse of the House of Rookwood: Supernatural horror and family drama.
    Ash Island: Personal survival horror in the vein of Silent Hill.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Telok's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    PRAK

    Default Re: In which setting(s) would metagame information be the most valuable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xuc Xac View Post
    But you already know what's in those old books. In the stories, people read the Necronomicon all the time with no issues. The problem was reading it and then seeing proof that it's true.

    The narrator of "Pickman's Model" was a big fan of Pickman's paintings until he discovered that their subjects were real. Imagine how much you'd freak out if you discovered Steven King had actually been writing non-fiction this whole time and just claiming it was fiction in order to sell books and impress people with his "imagination".
    If you read what the CoC game says about reading those books it tells you why understanding them takes weeks to months and one or more rolls before understanding it makes you lose sanity. In the game the sanity mechanic isn't "do you have a mental illness", it's about overall ability to make rational decisions. You lose sanity when you realize things like you sudden sleep walking might literally be an alien bug inside your skull, not looking at normal (if creepy) pictures or reading something you can dismiss as fiction. It's the difference between reading the SCP website and stumbling across undeniable physical proof that one of them exists.

    So you make other people read the books and give you an executive summary over the phone, then mail them boxes of TNT to blow up the cult. Probably stay away from certain towns and don't travel into uncharted wilderness with hostile natives too.
    Niven's Laws, #5
    If you've nothing to say, say it any way you like. Stylistic innovations, contorted story lines or none, exotic or genderless pronouns, internal inconsistencies, the recipe for preparing your lover as a cannibal banquet: feel free. If what you have to say is important and/or difficult to follow, use the simplest language possible. If the reader doesn't get it then, let it not be your fault.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Titan in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2013

    Default Re: In which setting(s) would metagame information be the most valuable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    If you read what the CoC game says about reading those books it tells you why understanding them takes weeks to months and one or more rolls before understanding it makes you lose sanity. In the game the sanity mechanic isn't "do you have a mental illness", it's about overall ability to make rational decisions. You lose sanity when you realize things like you sudden sleep walking might literally be an alien bug inside your skull, not looking at normal (if creepy) pictures or reading something you can dismiss as fiction. It's the difference between reading the SCP website and stumbling across undeniable physical proof that one of them exists.

    So you make other people read the books and give you an executive summary over the phone, then mail them boxes of TNT to blow up the cult. Probably stay away from certain towns and don't travel into uncharted wilderness with hostile natives too.
    Answer: Wouldn't metagame knowledge of CoC include the maddening truths?


    Question: lorðeo zcdo ðafþio etren eaið te
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2021-01-17 at 07:59 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Dec 2019

    Default Re: In which setting(s) would metagame information be the most valuable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    My family is rife with relatives who studied medicine; I went the software development route. This argument kindaÂ… misses the mark with me. I don't reallyÂ… "sympathize with" is the closest I can phrase itÂ… the non-Determinator peopleÂ… or the Determinator people who sell their happiness.

    I would totes rock wizardry in a D&D setting, as "fun", "optimal", and "right up my alley". Just like I did programming.
    Eh. I haven't read much D&D fiction but I am definitely not sure that we know how much wizardry maps to the programming (or engineering) and how much to... say meditation or other less strictly logical practices. In Vance's works (here I go again) they didn't seem to work like that, it's more of The Incomplete Enchanter's shtick. Now if you are sure that you can, say easily achieve no-mind IRL if you set yourself to it - ok, equating inclinations for software development with inclinations for wizardry is a bit much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Depends on the setting. In any D&D after AD&D, all you have to do is overcome encounter and you'll gain knowledge without any additional practice. Ding!
    Again, like I said in the "which D&D world would you want to live on" a world which has worked according to the strictest RAW of the game would be a horror and a maddening absurdity, possibly rendering you (as in someone who have lived all their life on very physical Earth) unable to choose right decisions or even comprehend it properly. Heroes of the iconic books definitely do not get levels, especially suddenly.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    Question: lorðeo zcdo ðafþio etren eaið te
    Ā̸̼r̷̤̬̲͊e̸̗͋̇͑ ̵̺̜͎̓̄ỳ̷̼͝o̸̮͎̖̅͝u̵͔͓͋̀͝ ̸͚̹́͝n̴̘̞̜̈́o̵̺͖̔̔t̵̗̘͓̽̃̾ ̴̢̲̹̀f̸̘͐̎́͜a̷̘̝͐m̴̓̂ͅỉ̸͇l̸͔̱͙̑͑i̶͚͑̉̃ą̴͐̽r̶̥̍̈́͗ ̞͕ ̴̠͆̊͝w̵̝̠͒̆ĩ̸̪͈͍̍t̵̳̉̚ḩ̸̦̀̀̃ ̴̠̿̓t̶͎̠̽́̾h̸̞̬̲͒é̸̡́̓ ̵̪̗͉̋͐̕g̴̼̓͐l̵̺̰̖͝͝o̶͙̼̎͐͝r̷͓̄͐ÿ̸͉̠̦́ ̷̤̠̓ ̸͎̦̀t̸̠̄́h̵̻̓̔̌ä̴̟͍̦́͌t̶͔̱͘͝ ̴̜̫̀́ì̶̖͕s̵̬̿̈ ̶̼̃͌͜͝Ż̷̰ǎ̴̞̒ͅl̷̢̫̂̔g̸͓̫͈̑͆̓ơ̶̼̲̯?̸̜͌͊

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2011

    Default Re: In which setting(s) would metagame information be the most valuable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    Eh. I haven't read much D&D fiction but I am definitely not sure that we know how much wizardry maps to the programming (or engineering) and how much to... say meditation or other less strictly logical practices. In Vance's works (here I go again) they didn't seem to work like that, it's more of The Incomplete Enchanter's shtick. Now if you are sure that you can, say easily achieve no-mind IRL if you set yourself to it - ok, equating inclinations for software development with inclinations for wizardry is a bit much.
    Fair. I would totes rock *certain* types of magic, then. Others, I would have to evaluate whether I could and would redefine myself accordingly, or choose a different path.

    Shrug. I don't come from a family of programmers - I'm / we're fairly flexible with regards to the implementation of our Determinator natures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    Ā̸̼r̷̤̬̲͊e̸̗͋̇͑ ̵̺̜͎̓̄ỳ̷̼͝o̸̮͎̖̅͝u̵͔͓͋̀͝ ̸͚̹́͝n̴̘̞̜̈́o̵̺͖̔̔t̵̗̘͓̽̃̾ ̴̢̲̹̀f̸̘͐̎́͜a̷̘̝͐m̴̓̂ͅỉ̸͇l̸͔̱͙̑͑i̶͚͑̉̃ą̴͐̽r̶̥̍̈́͗ ̞͕ ̴̠͆̊͝w̵̝̠͒̆ĩ̸̪͈͍̍t̵̳̉̚ḩ̸̦̀̀̃ ̴̠̿̓t̶͎̠̽́̾h̸̞̬̲͒é̸̡́̓ ̵̪̗͉̋͐̕g̴̼̓͐l̵̺̰̖͝͝o̶͙̼̎͐͝r̷͓̄͐ÿ̸͉̠̦́ ̷̤̠̓ ̸͎̦̀t̸̠̄́h̵̻̓̔̌ä̴̟͍̦́͌t̶͔̱͘͝ ̴̜̫̀́ì̶̖͕s̵̬̿̈ ̶̼̃͌͜͝Ż̷̰ǎ̴̞̒ͅl̷̢̫̂̔g̸͓̫͈̑͆̓ơ̶̼̲̯?̸̜͌͊
    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    l̵̨̘̘̭̣̓̓̇̂̋̌̋̀̊͋̑͘̚ơ̶̡͚̗̭͍̖͈͎̯̙̭͍͌̀̑͒̇̿͗̚͘̚r̴̿̀͝ ̨̰͇̥̪̥̌̿͂͘Ã̸̜̫̍͋̂̾͝͝°̵̡̡̰̗̲̤͖̝̞͖͎͔̾́͐͌̑̈́́̈́̄̽͐̏̕̕͘e ̵̢̨͉͉̻̿̍́͌̅̈̾̄͌̓ơ̶̧̹͔̻̗̫̱̬͔̻̍̈́̈́̋̀̂͂͂̊̋̇̕͘ ̸̨̞̩̟͂̽͛́́͛z̸̡͈̗̳̘̑̀̏̓̃̉͒̏͋́̄͌̒̌͝c̸̛͖̭̬̮̈͒̍͋̒̿̈̀̕͜ ̧d̸̛̗̂̈̌̃́̑͒̐͛̚͠ȍ̴̡͖̰̖̘̜͉͌͋̈́̅ ̸̢͚̜͕̣̙̟̰͇̼̆ͅÃ̷̡̡͚̠͖̬̣͚͕́͐̀̏̽́͊̈́͝°̶̛̰͙͈͆̌͐̊̓͘͘ͅa̷̔ ͙f̴̡͚̮̹̱̹̘̘̠̦̙̈́̽͑́̇͐̐̊͘Ã̸̜͍̗̳̜͊̈́̐̔͠͠¾̴̭͗̽̋̀̈́̂̆͜ì̸ ̡͇̗͔͛̀̈́͂͌͋̇ǫ̸̡͙̜͓̫̯̥̾͛̐̕ ̶̡̠̗͍̜̫͕͊̅̇e̶̜̗̎͗̅̏̏̂̐̃́t̶̰͕̃͛̅̓̄̈́͒̚r̴̨̧̻͎̺̎̈́͆̎̌̚͠ ͇̼̳̜̞̝̹ę̴̛̛̯͍̲͕͉̤̥̮̜̼͎͌̿́͐̐̎̆͜͝ͅn̵̞͚͍͎̝̊̑̈́́͗͠ ̨̡̝͜ ̴̨̧̫̮͈̗͕̮̜̻͒̋́̈́̐͗̚ě̴͓̗͝ͅą̶͎̬̮͙͎̱̩͕̝̥͆̃͗̇̆̌̉̋͂͘͝͝ i̶̭̣̝̙̭̞͍̭̐̐̈̕ͅÃ̸͚̾̔̿͌̊̂̂°̸̬͕̭͎̋͛̋̀͑̊͗̇̋͊̒̽͐͐͜͝ ̶̧͎̮̲͖̣̤͔͒͒̑͗̄́̒̐͆̒̔̕͝͠͠t̷̛̫̱͂͆̀̓́́̈̍̏̍͂ẻ̶̟̾̏̂͒̆̓ ̣̜̭̲̱̭̩̩͕͔̳
    Wow. I'm so glad I created this thread.

    Clearly, CoC is the *worst* world for certain types of knowledge.

    Also… can one of you explain how to do that? Aside from being cool, and thus me just wanting know anyway, I'm writing a story, and cannot remember the "make this character appear over this other character" tech that I used to know how to do (of course, if this wasn't produced with that tech, then it's not as relevant to my objectives).

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2018

    Default Re: In which setting(s) would metagame information be the most valuable?

    It would need to be a setting with powerful, exploitable secrets independent of character level and the like.

    Obviously, metagame knowledge in the sense of knowing the most efficient paths to power is useful, but it doesn't give you a special advantage in the grand scheme. It makes your life easier in the short term, but not really much changed long-term. You'll clear away the poorly-optimized NPCs, leaving only the strong ones.

    I'm honestly struggling to think of a good setting where knowledge of the metaplot etc. can actually make that much of a difference? Part of the problem is that there are rarely world-revising secrets that a random 1st-level nobody can exploit. The Elder Scrolls, as noted, is a world where godhood is apparently one carefully-structured meditation away, because it is epistemologically malleable: it is possible to actually change facts so that they are no longer true, and even to enforce paradoxes onto existence, which tends to do Weird Stuff if you succeed. That thing where those extremist Akatosh cultists broke the world for a thousand years, for example.

    Beyond that though...yeah, it's just hard to think of a place where metagame knowledge is simultaneously powerful, useful (to a low-level character), and world-altering. You can stop a few plots, but re-writing the world? That's a tall order.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Sheriff in the Playground Administrator
     
    Roland St. Jude's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: In which setting(s) would metagame information be the most valuable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    Ā̸̼r̷̤̬̲͊e̸̗͋̇͑ ̵̺̜͎̓̄ỳ̷̼͝o̸̮͎̖̅͝u̵͔͓͋̀͝ ̸͚̹́͝n̴̘̞̜̈́o̵̺͖̔̔t̵̗̘͓̽̃̾ ̴̢̲̹̀f̸̘͐̎́͜a̷̘̝͐m̴̓̂ͅỉ̸͇l̸͔̱͙̑͑i̶͚͑̉̃ą̴͐̽r̶̥̍̈́͗ ̞͕ ̴̠͆̊͝w̵̝̠͒̆ĩ̸̪͈͍̍t̵̳̉̚ḩ̸̦̀̀̃ ̴̠̿̓t̶͎̠̽́̾h̸̞̬̲͒é̸̡́̓ ̵̪̗͉̋͐̕g̴̼̓͐l̵̺̰̖͝͝o̶͙̼̎͐͝r̷͓̄͐ÿ̸͉̠̦́ ̷̤̠̓ ̸͎̦̀t̸̠̄́h̵̻̓̔̌ä̴̟͍̦́͌t̶͔̱͘͝ ̴̜̫̀́ì̶̖͕s̵̬̿̈ ̶̼̃͌͜͝Ż̷̰ǎ̴̞̒ͅl̷̢̫̂̔g̸͓̫͈̑͆̓ơ̶̼̲̯?̸̜͌͊
    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    l̵̨̘̘̭̣̓̓̇̂̋̌̋̀̊͋̑͘̚ơ̶̡͚̗̭͍̖͈͎̯̙̭͍͌̀̑͒̇̿͗̚͘̚r̴̿̀͝ ̨̰͇̥̪̥̌̿͂͘Ã̸̜̫̍͋̂̾͝͝°̵̡̡̰̗̲̤͖̝̞͖͎͔̾́͐͌̑̈́́̈́̄̽͐̏̕̕͘e ̵̢̨͉͉̻̿̍́͌̅̈̾̄͌̓ơ̶̧̹͔̻̗̫̱̬͔̻̍̈́̈́̋̀̂͂͂̊̋̇̕͘ ̸̨̞̩̟͂̽͛́́͛z̸̡͈̗̳̘̑̀̏̓̃̉͒̏͋́̄͌̒̌͝c̸̛͖̭̬̮̈͒̍͋̒̿̈̀̕͜ ̧d̸̛̗̂̈̌̃́̑͒̐͛̚͠ȍ̴̡͖̰̖̘̜͉͌͋̈́̅ ̸̢͚̜͕̣̙̟̰͇̼̆ͅÃ̷̡̡͚̠͖̬̣͚͕́͐̀̏̽́͊̈́͝°̶̛̰͙͈͆̌͐̊̓͘͘ͅa̷̔ ͙f̴̡͚̮̹̱̹̘̘̠̦̙̈́̽͑́̇͐̐̊͘Ã̸̜͍̗̳̜͊̈́̐̔͠͠¾̴̭͗̽̋̀̈́̂̆͜ì̸ ̡͇̗͔͛̀̈́͂͌͋̇ǫ̸̡͙̜͓̫̯̥̾͛̐̕ ̶̡̠̗͍̜̫͕͊̅̇e̶̜̗̎͗̅̏̏̂̐̃́t̶̰͕̃͛̅̓̄̈́͒̚r̴̨̧̻͎̺̎̈́͆̎̌̚͠ ͇̼̳̜̞̝̹ę̴̛̛̯͍̲͕͉̤̥̮̜̼͎͌̿́͐̐̎̆͜͝ͅn̵̞͚͍͎̝̊̑̈́́͗͠ ̨̡̝͜ ̴̨̧̫̮͈̗͕̮̜̻͒̋́̈́̐͗̚ě̴͓̗͝ͅą̶͎̬̮͙͎̱̩͕̝̥͆̃͗̇̆̌̉̋͂͘͝͝ i̶̭̣̝̙̭̞͍̭̐̐̈̕ͅÃ̸͚̾̔̿͌̊̂̂°̸̬͕̭͎̋͛̋̀͑̊͗̇̋͊̒̽͐͐͜͝ ̶̧͎̮̲͖̣̤͔͒͒̑͗̄́̒̐͆̒̔̕͝͠͠t̷̛̫̱͂͆̀̓́́̈̍̏̍͂ẻ̶̟̾̏̂͒̆̓ ̣̜̭̲̱̭̩̩͕͔̳
    Sheriff: Stop doing this.
    Forum Rules

    Sheriff Roland by Chris the Pontifex

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGirl

    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default Re: In which setting(s) would metagame information be the most valuable?

    If we're going outside D&D the answer is Unknown Armies. A constant lack of good intelligence is the number one weakness of every single faction in the game. If you read the sourcebook on a faction, you probably know more than the front line members of that faction know about themselves.
    Non est salvatori salvator,
    neque defensori dominus,
    nec pater nec mater,
    nihil supernum.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Israel
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: In which setting(s) would metagame information be the most valuable?

    Though the Cathulu mention was meant as the worst example, in many ways it is true to most fantasy worlds. The game worlds are built and designed with the mind of grand adventures taking place in them.
    This means, that most of them include multiple world threatening dangers, in order to enable many epuc stories and campaigns.
    But... if you actually live in one? And there is no DM who makes sure you mostly meet challenges for your power level, and you are not assured even to be of the power level as the adventurers the world is designed for?
    In such circumstances, much of the metagame knowledge can be horrific. If I was in FR, would I want to know for sure about the capricious gods? About the multiple world ending threats? About the beings from outer realms? If I was in Eberron, how does the knowledge of The Dreaming Dark, The dragons of Argonessen, The Daelkyr and so on help me except fill me with dread? If I am in Golarion, the same issues as in FR apply.

    Do I want to know about dragons, abberations, undead, gods, outsiders, and other horrors, if I am near powerless to affect them, or most likely die if I try?

    Even in our world, in real life, every adult knows there are things he may have felt better not knowing...

    Knowledge in itself, without the wisdom/insight, mental and emotional maturity needed to cope with the knowledge, and potentially the means to deal with the knowledge, can be horrific, stressful and dibilitating, especially in auch setting as most of us play in.

    Horror is real, and mainly stems from knowledgex and the hopelessness in dealing with such knowledge. Sometimes, ignorance is bliss...
    Last edited by Kol Korran; 2021-01-17 at 04:33 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2011

    Default Re: In which setting(s) would metagame information be the most valuable?

    Quote Originally Posted by ezekielraiden View Post
    It would need to be a setting with powerful, exploitable secrets independent of character level and the like.

    Obviously, metagame knowledge in the sense of knowing the most efficient paths to power is useful, but it doesn't give you a special advantage in the grand scheme. It makes your life easier in the short term, but not really much changed long-term. You'll clear away the poorly-optimized NPCs, leaving only the strong ones.

    I'm honestly struggling to think of a good setting where knowledge of the metaplot etc. can actually make that much of a difference? Part of the problem is that there are rarely world-revising secrets that a random 1st-level nobody can exploit. The Elder Scrolls, as noted, is a world where godhood is apparently one carefully-structured meditation away, because it is epistemologically malleable: it is possible to actually change facts so that they are no longer true, and even to enforce paradoxes onto existence, which tends to do Weird Stuff if you succeed. That thing where those extremist Akatosh cultists broke the world for a thousand years, for example.

    Beyond that though...yeah, it's just hard to think of a place where metagame knowledge is simultaneously powerful, useful (to a low-level character), and world-altering. You can stop a few plots, but re-writing the world? That's a tall order.
    So, elder scrolls is gonna be hard to top. The homebrew Paradox (think Rifts, but good) actually is in a not dissimilar position (seeing as how one of my characters fairly literally mediated to help another character ascend, and my metagame knowledge would allow not dissimilar shenanigans).

    Any other systems / settings in this league?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland St. Jude View Post
    Sheriff: Stop doing this.


    … why? Aside from the obvious sanity loss. Is this a… technical issue? An… aesthetics issue? In case anyone else is as clueless as I am, I'd like to make sure we don't accidentally do "the same thing" while thinking that we've fixed the problem.

    (And especially since this reminded me of a tech I've been wanting to use… but if that tech is an issue…)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kol Korran View Post
    Though the Cathulu mention was meant as the worst example, in many ways it is true to most fantasy worlds. The game worlds are built and designed with the mind of grand adventures taking place in them.
    This means, that most of them include multiple world threatening dangers, in order to enable many epuc stories and campaigns.
    But... if you actually live in one? And there is no DM who makes sure you mostly meet challenges for your power level, and you are not assured even to be of the power level as the adventurers the world is designed for?
    In such circumstances, much of the metagame knowledge can be horrific. If I was in FR, would I want to know for sure about the capricious gods? About the multiple world ending threats? About the beings from outer realms? If I was in Eberron, how does the knowledge of The Dreaming Dark, The dragons of Argonessen, The Daelkyr and so on help me except fill me with dread? If I am in Golarion, the same issues as in FR apply.

    Do I want to know about dragons, abberations, undead, gods, outsiders, and other horrors, if I am near powerless to affect them, or most likely die if I try?

    Even in our world, in real life, every adult knows there are things he may have felt better not knowing...

    Knowledge in itself, without the wisdom/insight, mental and emotional maturity needed to cope with the knowledge, and potentially the means to deal with the knowledge, can be horrific, stressful and dibilitating, especially in auch setting as most of us play in.

    Horror is real, and mainly stems from knowledgex and the hopelessness in dealing with such knowledge. Sometimes, ignorance is bliss...
    That's… huh. I had always looked at most such things as sources of hope - that there exist beings / planes of such world-changing power that tomorrow could be better.

    Now I begin to wonder if hope and horror aren't simply opposite sides of the same coin.

    <Gibbers incoherently in the corner>

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Titan in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2013

    Default Re: In which setting(s) would metagame information be the most valuable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Wow. I'm so glad I created this thread.

    Clearly, CoC is the *worst* world for certain types of knowledge.

    Also… can one of you explain how to do that? Aside from being cool, and thus me just wanting know anyway, I'm writing a story, and cannot remember the "make this character appear over this other character" tech that I used to know how to do (of course, if this wasn't produced with that tech, then it's not as relevant to my objectives).
    Yes, CoC is the worst world for certain types of knowledge. Thank you for letting me show rather than just tell.

    I am of course presuming the maddening truths would still be maddening. That is not exactly a given. One of the core fears Lovecraft had, that of being an insignificant speck in an infinite universe, just does not hit as hard today as it did back then. However the concept of the mythos has outgrown the instance of the mythos, so I feel safe to say the truths would be maddening, even if they would need to be updated to maintain that effect.

    The moderator is objecting to using that technique for some reason, so I reverted the text.

    However, if you are interested in the tech for use outside of this forum, Saint-Just told me the name (you can read the normal text through the weirdness). If you google Zalgo you will find the tech you need. But don't use it here (for reasons I don't understand but will follow).
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2021-01-17 at 08:09 AM.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    Jan 2020

    Default Re: In which setting(s) would metagame information be the most valuable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    … why? Aside from the obvious sanity loss. Is this a… technical issue? An… aesthetics issue? In case anyone else is as clueless as I am, I'd like to make sure we don't accidentally do "the same thing" while thinking that we've fixed the problem.
    Aside from anything else, this sort of text creates issues for accessibility tools like screen-readers and the like, making the overall site less navigable for people who have various disabilities related to vision, print or reading.

    Not the sheriff, obviously, but that would be my assumption.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Dec 2019

    Default Re: In which setting(s) would metagame information be the most valuable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Wow. I'm so glad I created this thread.

    Clearly, CoC is the *worst* world for certain types of knowledge.

    AlsoÂ… can one of you explain how to do that? Aside from being cool, and thus me just wanting know anyway, I'm writing a story, and cannot remember the "make this character appear over this other character" tech that I used to know how to do (of course, if this wasn't produced with that tech, then it's not as relevant to my objectives).
    It's literally Unicode working as intended. At least technically working as intended.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combining_character
    https://stackoverflow.com/questions/...algo-text-work

    Now, as people above has said it may not be fully supported by every program, even Photoshop throws a hissy fit when I tried to paste my previous message in it (despite the fact that I use the same font). But limited amount (one or two) works.

    ETA: In my previous answer I assumed that you meant to add characters of your choosing. If you need to obfuscate text with random weirdness, then yes, online Zalgo generators will do it instantly.
    Last edited by Saint-Just; 2021-01-17 at 12:59 PM.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tanarii's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2015

    Default Re: In which setting(s) would metagame information be the most valuable?

    Asked for clarification on zalgo text in the site issues board
    https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...637-Zalgo-text

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PirateWench

    Join Date
    Jan 2012

    Default Re: In which setting(s) would metagame information be the most valuable?

    I think superhero comic worlds would be some of the best, especially if you have villainous aspirations.

    For example, you know every hero's secret identity. I know, I know, secret identities are so out of style these days that even Superman has given up on his. But for those heroes who still use their secret identities, you could easily blackmail them (or hand that information over to other villains, if you can get them to believe you).

    There are all sorts of "secret origins" that you could duplicate for yourself. You know how things work, so you could take advantage of a lot of things. The sky is the limit really, as long as you don't get stuck in some sort of modern DC Universe where "everything that happened happened, but not really, and anything you like isn't true and everything you don't like is true and even we (the writers and the characters) don't know what's going on and that's ON PURPOSE." As long as you avoid a hellscape like that sort of setting, then you're fine. Lost artifacts? You know where they went.

    And if you can choose a particular time setting, like "the pre-Crisis DC Universe, after the Composite Superman's first appearance but before the Composite Superman's second appearance", then there are all sorts of options available. For example, if you can make something that emits an electrical charge, take it with you to the Superman museum, aim it at the statuettes of the Legionnaires, and suddenly, you've got all the powers of the Composite Superman. And since you know that you have to recharge your powers, you could recharge your powers and keep them permanently (you might want to steal the statuettes and hide them though).

    That's just one plan. There are a million possibilities.

    Edit: And, yes, these are game settings since both DC and Marvel have had a few RPGs set in these settings.
    Last edited by SimonMoon6; 2021-01-17 at 05:05 PM.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Orc in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2007

    Default Re: In which setting(s) would metagame information be the most valuable?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    Call of Cthulhu

    *walks away gibbering*
    2nded. The most important part of that sentence being "Walks away"

    HTML Code:
    https://youtu.be/olEbwhWDYwM
    Last edited by Duff; 2021-01-17 at 06:34 PM.
    I love playing in a party with a couple of power-gamers, it frees me up to be Elan!


  25. - Top - End - #25
    Titan in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2013

    Default Re: In which setting(s) would metagame information be the most valuable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duff View Post
    Nice, a good example of horror movie metaknowledge. Of course this is not enough for some horror games. Sometimes the horror does not require the PCs to make a stupid opening move. For settings where this would work, this metagame knowledge would be the most valuable.
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2021-01-17 at 06:29 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •