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Thread: WandaVision

  1. - Top - End - #451
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    Default Re: WandaVision

    Borrowing other people’s words.

    Spoiler: Zemo's Plan
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    1. Blame the Avengers for my family's death even though Ultron killed them.

    2. Decrypt millions(?) of Black Widow's SHIELD/HYDRA files to find out the identity of the Winter Soldier and the identity of his former handler.

    3. Find the handler and hit his car. Hopefully, he answers the door at a creepy, secluded safe house.

    4. Find the Winter Soldier's activation codes (hopefully in a cool-looking book). Learn how to use the codes myself -- I can do that, right?

    5. Ask for "Mission Report: December 16, 1991", implying that I already know what happened. Whatever. If HYDRA guy doesn't answer, drown him.

    6. Hopefully, around this time, what happened in Sokovia will cause the government to press for superhero regulation, creating a rift between Captain America and Iron Man and an opportunity for me to frame Bucky for something and make them super duper mad at each other. That's bound to happen, right?

    7. Obtain a Bucky Barnes mask and wig (Halloween store?).

    8. Bomb the signing of the new regulations (Sokovia Accords has a nice ring to it). Scowl for the cameras.

    9. Hope that Captain America sides with Winter Soldier and Iron Man sides against them. If these two aren't fighting, I just bombed a building for no reason.

    10. Build a homemade EMP device -- I can do that, right?

    11. Wait for Bucky to get captured by Tony Stark's forces. If he escapes or is killed, or anyone else captures him, this plan is worthless.

    12. Intercept, kill, and impersonate the psychiatrist brought in to analyze Bucky. Don't worry -- I'll know exactly who he is and when he will arrive, but no one else will even know what he looks like.

    13. Infiltrate Stark's insanely high-security government facility and gain unfettered access to the Winter Soldier. This facility will likely be guarded with maximum security, but I must be left ALONE with no one else in earshot or physical proximity. NO GUARDS!!

    14. Arrange for my homemade EMP to be delivered precisely when I'm interviewing the Winter Soldier. If the package is late or gets inspected, this plan is worthless.

    15. Activate the EMP and knock out power to the facility.

    16. Use code words to activate the Winter Soldier. Fingers crossed they still work!

    17. Ask Winter Soldier for "Mission Report: December 16, 1991". Again, I only need this specific report, which means I definitely probably already know what happened. I really hope Bucky killed Iron Man's parents, or this plan is worthless.

    18. Have Winter Soldier fight the Avengers to cover my escape. Hopefully, he doesn't kill Cap or Iron Man. Also, if I'm caught, this plan is worthless.

    19. Hopefully Captain America and Iron Man begin to disagree so much, they activate every other superhero to choose one side or the other, prompting a CIVIL WAR. But if either Cap or Iron Man is captured or killed, this plan is worthless.

    20. Fly to Russia, call the room service lady so they can discover the psychiatrist's body, exposing my true identity and tipping off Iron Man, who will definitely get what's happening and then fly to Siberia ALONE to assist Captain America and Bucky, WHO HAVE ALSO TRAVELED ALONE so I can turn them against each other and they'll fight. If this doesn't happen exactly like that, this plan is worthless.

    21. Kill the other frozen Winter Soldiers and wait for Cap and Iron Man to arrive. Listen to my dead wife's voicemail to pass the time.

    22. Reveal to Iron Man that Bucky killed his parents -- maybe there's a VHS tape or other convenient evidence? Like a security camera on a desolate forest road? It's a long shot, but hopefully there are multiple angles to see exactly what's happening.

    23. Leave Iron Man, Cap, and Bucky to fight it out! Yes! I've defeated the Avengers! (If there's no winner, or they come to some kind of understanding -- this plan is worthless.)

    24. Delete dead wife's voicemail. Kill myself. Hopefully, no one stops me.


    I did not like Civil War. 30% of the movie is great though, when it is not the plan, civil war, Captain, Bucky, Tony, etc.
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  2. - Top - End - #452
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    Default Re: WandaVision

    if you haven't already, highly recommend Nando V Movies on Civil War (There are two others, but this one is most relevant to this specific topic).

    Among other things, he suggests a few changes that could have made it a better movie, such as having the airport fight take place in New York, making Spider-man have a more organic reason to join in.
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  3. - Top - End - #453
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    In the books, the Scrulls are the bad guys.
    In the books, Nick Fury is white.
    In the books, Peter made his own costume.
    In the books, The Mandalorian is a real thing
    In the books, Mutants exist.
    In the books, Stormbreaker was a hammer owned by someone who wasn't Thor
    In the books, Thanos is in love with the literal embodiment of Death
    In the books, Thanos' "hal of all life" plan wasn't to bring balance, it was to impress Death.
    In the books, Wanda and Pietro are the children of Magnito

    a LOT of things are different from the books. i think it's abundantly clear at this point that the MCU is not a 1:1 translation of the comics.
    In the books Thor is an Asgardian, Dr. Strange is the Sorcerer Supreme, Tony Stark is the original Iron Man, Steve Rogers was given the SSS, SHIELD is (was) run by Nick Fury (who, in some of the books was black and looked suspiciously like SLJ well before the first Iron Man movie)...so it is also abundantly clear that the MCU draws heavily from the comics.

    I believe it is reasonable to use the book versions as the basis for guesses, just like it is reasonable for the MCU creatives to use things not in the books/differently than in the books.

    Hence my "suggests" as opposed to "undeniably means" a force behind AH.

    And the Skrulls will totally still be bad guys. At least a lot/most of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    Nope, mistake on my part sorry. didn't fully know the guy's name i guess.
    Then it is a really good mistake. Hawthorne's ancestor (couple greats-grandfather?) was a judge at the Salem witch trials, and Hawthorne wrote some stories which might fit in well with Wanda's feelings at the moment. Now I totally want Hayward to be tied to that history as opposed to being the obligatory white guy who mismanages everyone and tries to blow everything up as an object lesson.

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  4. - Top - End - #454
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    Default Re: WandaVision

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    The only major thing i can think of Zemo doing is revealing to Tony that Bucky killed his parents, which I'm sure could have been done even without Zemo.
    Zemo did kill a lot of people to get everyone’s attention first. If left to his own devices, Bucky probably would have stayed hidden indefinitely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Borrowing other people’s words.

    Spoiler: Zemo's Plan
    Show

    1. Blame the Avengers for my family's death even though Ultron killed them.

    2. Decrypt millions(?) of Black Widow's SHIELD/HYDRA files to find out the identity of the Winter Soldier and the identity of his former handler.

    3. Find the handler and hit his car. Hopefully, he answers the door at a creepy, secluded safe house.

    4. Find the Winter Soldier's activation codes (hopefully in a cool-looking book). Learn how to use the codes myself -- I can do that, right?

    5. Ask for "Mission Report: December 16, 1991", implying that I already know what happened. Whatever. If HYDRA guy doesn't answer, drown him.

    6. Hopefully, around this time, what happened in Sokovia will cause the government to press for superhero regulation, creating a rift between Captain America and Iron Man and an opportunity for me to frame Bucky for something and make them super duper mad at each other. That's bound to happen, right?

    7. Obtain a Bucky Barnes mask and wig (Halloween store?).

    8. Bomb the signing of the new regulations (Sokovia Accords has a nice ring to it). Scowl for the cameras.

    9. Hope that Captain America sides with Winter Soldier and Iron Man sides against them. If these two aren't fighting, I just bombed a building for no reason.

    10. Build a homemade EMP device -- I can do that, right?

    11. Wait for Bucky to get captured by Tony Stark's forces. If he escapes or is killed, or anyone else captures him, this plan is worthless.

    12. Intercept, kill, and impersonate the psychiatrist brought in to analyze Bucky. Don't worry -- I'll know exactly who he is and when he will arrive, but no one else will even know what he looks like.

    13. Infiltrate Stark's insanely high-security government facility and gain unfettered access to the Winter Soldier. This facility will likely be guarded with maximum security, but I must be left ALONE with no one else in earshot or physical proximity. NO GUARDS!!

    14. Arrange for my homemade EMP to be delivered precisely when I'm interviewing the Winter Soldier. If the package is late or gets inspected, this plan is worthless.

    15. Activate the EMP and knock out power to the facility.

    16. Use code words to activate the Winter Soldier. Fingers crossed they still work!

    17. Ask Winter Soldier for "Mission Report: December 16, 1991". Again, I only need this specific report, which means I definitely probably already know what happened. I really hope Bucky killed Iron Man's parents, or this plan is worthless.

    18. Have Winter Soldier fight the Avengers to cover my escape. Hopefully, he doesn't kill Cap or Iron Man. Also, if I'm caught, this plan is worthless.

    19. Hopefully Captain America and Iron Man begin to disagree so much, they activate every other superhero to choose one side or the other, prompting a CIVIL WAR. But if either Cap or Iron Man is captured or killed, this plan is worthless.

    20. Fly to Russia, call the room service lady so they can discover the psychiatrist's body, exposing my true identity and tipping off Iron Man, who will definitely get what's happening and then fly to Siberia ALONE to assist Captain America and Bucky, WHO HAVE ALSO TRAVELED ALONE so I can turn them against each other and they'll fight. If this doesn't happen exactly like that, this plan is worthless.

    21. Kill the other frozen Winter Soldiers and wait for Cap and Iron Man to arrive. Listen to my dead wife's voicemail to pass the time.

    22. Reveal to Iron Man that Bucky killed his parents -- maybe there's a VHS tape or other convenient evidence? Like a security camera on a desolate forest road? It's a long shot, but hopefully there are multiple angles to see exactly what's happening.

    23. Leave Iron Man, Cap, and Bucky to fight it out! Yes! I've defeated the Avengers! (If there's no winner, or they come to some kind of understanding -- this plan is worthless.)

    24. Delete dead wife's voicemail. Kill myself. Hopefully, no one stops me.


    I did not like Civil War. 30% of the movie is great though, when it is not the plan, civil war, Captain, Bucky, Tony, etc.
    I want to argue that it wasn’t that bad...but honestly I had trouble following it the first time I’d seen it and it still isn’t one of my favorites.

  5. - Top - End - #455
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    Default Re: WandaVision

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Instead shares a Chris Claremont thought from 8 days ago, since it sparks joy. Warning it has spoilers if you are not familiar with the comics.

    https://m.facebook.com/chris.claremo...24407769522723
    Very nice to get his perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Really? Because i didnt find Zemo to be particularly interesting or sympathetic at all. He exists to give Cap and Tony an excuse to fight, but the seeds of that particular conflict have been building since the first Avengers movie. Heck, the movie didnt even really need a villain, they could easily have been fighting over Bucky and Wanda without any sort of outside prompting.
    Are you kidding? Zemo is fantastic. He has one of the best villainous motivations in the MCU, and he delivers it in a single line:

    "When the screaming stopped, it took me two days until I found their bodies. My father, still holding my wife and son in his arms. And the Avengers? They went home."

    That's all you need to justify why he went as far against them as he did. The mere fact that they're bringing him back when it would have been just as easy to toss him out, shows that he resonated with audiences.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    I'm with Keltest on this one, Zemo kinda felt like he just didn't belong in the movie. 90% of the plot was either about the Accords and/or a runaway Bucky anyways. The only major thing i can think of Zemo doing is revealing to Tony that Bucky killed his parents, which I'm sure could have been done even without Zemo. Maybe during the airport fight, Bucky's arm gets damaged or something and some kind of residual mental-programing compels him to go to some location to get it fixed, the location is abandoned, but contains all sorts of information on the Winter Soldier's past attacks, including the Starks. Or just don't reveal that information at all, that'd work too.
    He did far more than that. He bombed the Accords summit in Vienna and framed it on the Winter Soldier, while also uncovering Bucky's trigger phrase from his former HYDRA handlers so that Bucky would be activated and thus unable to defend himself from the appearance of guilt. Which of course directly led to the schism between Bucky's childhood friend who opposed the Accords, and his chief colleague who felt they were needed. Bucky's personal relationship to Tony's family was just icing on the cake. Never mind that his bombing also directly set the events of Black Panther in motion. "Only major thing," really?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  6. - Top - End - #456
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    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: WandaVision

    I'd say Zemo is what makes Civil War work.

    The Civil War comics event is really kind of dumb for a lot of reasons (Not as dumb as Civil War II, but whatever), the main one being that these are Superheroes, and it's kind of dumb for them to come to literal blows over this. The only way to really justify it is to make one side ridiculously evil, such that the other side isn't being unreasonable when it comes to choosing to fight against their friends/allies/fellow Heroes.


    Zemo makes civil War Work because it's not really about the Sokovia Accords. Sure, Cap doesn't like the idea of being ordered around (He's got trust issues after SHIELD), and Tony doesn't like the idea of being unaccountable (He's got self-trust issues after Sokovia), and they ARGUE about that, but they don't come to blows over it.


    First, Bucky. Cap doesn't want Bucky to be punished for things he was literally mind controlled into doing, Tony doesn't think it's up to Cap to decide who does or does not get to avoid justice for their actions. While it's basically the same disagreement as before, the conflict works because it's personal for Cap. Accepting Tony's viewpoint means handing Bucky over to whichever shady SHIELD successor can get their hands on him.

    Later, Cap and Bucky think that they need to stop Zemo from activating a squad of Hydra SuperSoldiers. Tony thinks this is just about Cap trying to protect his best friend. Airport Fight ensues. Each side is given good reason to think that fighting the other is justified and necessary.

    Finally, the Bunker Brawl, once again, is personal.

    All this works because of Zemo. A comic-book style disagreement doesn't give the Hero vs Hero action we want without making one or both sides look either petulant or evil.
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  7. - Top - End - #457
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    Default Re: WandaVision

    So we agree. Zemo makes Civil War work, and for the people Civil War does not work with, Zemo is the Uncanny Valley effect that is trying to make Civil War work but fails in doing so. It is asking too much of the viewer, and the viewer sees this as failure, they reject the narrative for it feels too forced.

    Spoiler: Image
    Show




    Zemo is the glue which holds Civil War together, the thing that triggers the leap of faith. And in some people he helps surmount the uncanny valley gap to the other side. And with others it comes close, but fails, and people were like why make Civil War at all, or if you make Civil War make it better for I do not find it satisfactory.

    The glue succeeded with some people, and failed catastrophically with others, for perception, experience, and phenomenology (philosophy about the study of appearance and experience from a first person point of view) is a subjective thing.

    ———

    It is like Indiana Jones 4 where a character in front of a green screen swings on vines like Tarzan, with monkeys following him, while catching up with a car in a jungle car chase. This is the uncanny valley, a failure of storytelling.

    (Which succeeds for some people)
    Last edited by Ramza00; Yesterday at 04:28 PM.
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  8. - Top - End - #458
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    Default Re: WandaVision

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    So we agree. Zemo makes Civil War work, and for the people Civil War does not work with, Zemo is the Uncanny Valley effect that is trying to make Civil War work but fails in doing so. It is asking too much of the viewer, and the viewer sees this as failure, they reject the narrative for it feels too forced.

    Spoiler: Image
    Show




    Zemo is the glue which holds Civil War together, the thing that triggers the leap of faith. And in some people he helps surmount the uncanny valley gap to the other side. And with others it comes close, but fails, and people were like why make Civil War at all, or if you make Civil War make it better for I do not find it satisfactory.

    The glue succeeded with some people, and failed catastrophically with others, for perception, experience, and phenomenology (philosophy about the study of appearance and experience from a first person point of view) is a subjective thing.

    ———

    It is like Indiana Jones 4 where a character in front of a green screen swings on vines like Tarzan, with monkeys following him, while catching up with a car in a jungle car chase. This is the uncanny valley, a failure of storytelling.

    (Which succeeds for some people)
    ...So you're saying it caused a CIVIL WAR among the fans?

    *gets pelted with rotten fruit*

  9. - Top - End - #459
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    Default Re: WandaVision

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    The glue succeeded with some people, and failed catastrophically with others, for perception, experience, and phenomenology (philosophy about the study of appearance and experience from a first person point of view) is a subjective thing.
    Sure, and the same can be said of every single other decision in the franchise, from casting to story to adaptation changes etc.

    But one thing is factual, and that is that they are bringing Zemo back (portrayed by the same actor, Daniel Brühl) - which gives us the best possible insight into how the majority of the fanbase received him, i.e. positively. I don't expect consensus around anything related to Marvel.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  10. - Top - End - #460
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    Originally Posted by Ramza00
    Zemo makes Civil War work, and for the people Civil War does not work with, Zemo is the Uncanny Valley effect that is trying to make Civil War work but fails in doing so.
    Not really, at least not for me.

    I enjoyed Civil War, and liked Zemo well enough as a villain. But the final fight between Cap and Tony felt extremely contrived—mainly because it’s all too convenient that Bucky, of all possible Soviet operatives, is the one who killed the Starks, and even more convenient that Tony would completely lose it when he learns this.

    Now, I can enjoy the movie just fine, but the overwhelming convenience keeps me from completely buying the final fight. For this issue, Zemo is here nor there; it’s the highly contrived intersection of Cap’s best friend and Tony’s parents that ruins the suspension of disbelief for me.

    That said, I still enjoy the movie overall. I’ve always enjoyed super-teams fighting each other in the comics (X-Men vs. Brotherhood, etc.) and it was fun to see at least an echo of that on the big screen.

    As for bringing Zemo back, I don’t know if that necessarily says anything about the proportion of fans who liked him in Civil War. He’s an established villain who fits the story they want to tell for Falcon & Winter Soldier, and they may simply have seen him as a safe bet that provides continuity with the MCU. If he makes it through all of FWS, I wouldn't be surprised if he shows up in the Wakanda series as well, since he has personal reasons to dislike Black Panther along with the Avengers.

    .
    Last edited by Palanan; Yesterday at 09:00 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #461
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    He does? He seemed pretty regretful about killing T'Challa's father. And BP was nowhere near Sokovia, nor did he have anything to do with Ultron.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  12. - Top - End - #462
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    He does? He seemed pretty regretful about killing T'Challa's father. And BP was nowhere near Sokovia, nor did he have anything to do with Ultron.
    Maybe, but BP probably wants his head on a pike now, so that seems unlikely to foster a good relationship.
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  13. - Top - End - #463
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Maybe, but BP probably wants his head on a pike now, so that seems unlikely to foster a good relationship.
    Black Panther specifically stopped him from killing himself and had a lovely speech on exactly that subject...though I acknowledge whoever replaces T’Challa may feel differently.

  14. - Top - End - #464
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    Default Re: WandaVision

    getting a new black panther is going to be difficult in-universe. if i recall correctly, the fruit that gave Plack Panther his powers was made extinct by fire.
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  15. - Top - End - #465
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    getting a new black panther is going to be difficult in-universe. if i recall correctly, the fruit that gave Plack Panther his powers was made extinct by fire.
    There was the one that was saved to give Black Panther his powers back, I'd put money on it having seeds as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    getting a new black panther is going to be difficult in-universe. if i recall correctly, the fruit that gave Plack Panther his powers was made extinct by fire.
    I expect they'll go with Shuri, since she's taken over in the comics before. If anyone can replicate the heart shaped herb, it's her.

  17. - Top - End - #467
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wookieetank View Post
    There was the one that was saved to give Black Panther his powers back, I'd put money on it having seeds as well.
    i mean maybe? that thing was eaten by T'challa though. might be a bit of a mess to get them.
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  18. - Top - End - #468
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    I expect they'll go with Shuri, since she's taken over in the comics before. If anyone can replicate the heart shaped herb, it's her.
    I sooooooooo hope this isn't the case. It should be Okoye! Okoye is far more dedicated to the land, the people, the spirit of Wakanda.

    Shuri is the somewhat spoiled, irreverent genius...sure, they could do a whole redemption/reconciliation story just like Thor...but better to just have the woman who totally fits the role fit the role.

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