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Thread: WandaVision

  1. - Top - End - #571
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    Default Re: WandaVision

    Wait, we're surprised that the guy who counts his kills by scarring himself for each one might not care about saving a life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    ... What? "And?"? And nothing. you asked a question and i gave you the answer. That was a full sentence.
    My impression was that you appear to dislike this "new direction" that they're taking MCU magic in. My response is that it was never new, or at the very least, that the true difference between what we knew and what we're being shown in WV is so small as to be meaningless.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Wait, we're surprised that the guy who counts his kills by scarring himself for each one might not care about saving a life?
    Yep we are supposed to "empathize" with Killmonger, but not sympathize with him.

    We are supposed to see he has valid points, but if he was given control his "grudge" will burn down the world much like ritual scar man burn down the magic flower.

    Likewise we are supposed to distrust him based off how he treats women, both his girlfriend which he does not mourn, but also how he is just generally disrespectful always.

    To "listen" but not to "trust," for Killmonger is no friend.
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    Default Re: WandaVision

    Just cut Killmonger from the movie, and paste-in Black Manta from Aquaman. Keep Manta's general origin story the same but tweaked slightly (Atlantian tech is probably his own tech but with Vibranium involved or something idk, Maybe some remnants of Ultron and Chitauri tech for a nod to that story from Homecoming) and you'd have a much more interesting story and final fight.

    I will die on this hill.
    Last edited by Draconi Redfir; 2021-03-01 at 03:11 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hungrycrow View Post
    The point is, who saw Wanda kill Vision, then saw Thanos resurrect and rekill Vision, and decided that all of that needed to be public knowledge?

    I also should probably rewatch that scene.
    In this theory? The oversight committee who received the report. What reason would they have not to tell everyone? The entire planet was affected by the aftermath, after all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    Just cut Killmonger from the movie, and paste-in Black Manta from Aquaman. Keep Manta's general origin story the same but tweaked slightly (Atlantian tech is probably his own tech but with Vibranium involved or something idk, Maybe some remnants of Ultron and Chitauri tech for a nod to that story from Homecoming) and you'd have a much more interesting story and final fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    We know, we disagree. Some of us will die on the other hill
    so long as we can put the cannons away and just wave at eachother instead of fighting, then all will be good
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  7. - Top - End - #577
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    Default Re: WandaVision

    There you go. Problem solved.

    The next Black Panther can be Black Manta.

    He can be revealed as a long lost fourth cousin twice removed of the Wakanda royal court, thus making him the next living male heir to the throne. Come in, destroy M'Baku in waterfall combat, ascend to the throne, then use Wakandan resources to go to war with Atlantis.

    Hey BP and Namor have been beating the **** out of each other for the last few years in the comic book, why not BP and Aquaman in the movies.

    I mean, I'm dying to see him use his Black Manta eye cannon to slice up some War Rhinos.
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    "The drow cleric smashes you in the skull with an adamantine mace, this jogs your memory, regain all your used spell slots for the day"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    In this theory? The oversight committee who received the report. What reason would they have not to tell everyone? The entire planet was affected by the aftermath, after all.
    There's a lot of sketchy concerns to this series of events.

    Vision is destroyed in Wakanda, then the snap happens. Why would the Wakandans hand his body over to the Americans anyway? He was made out of stolen vibranium. You'd expect them to throw him in a vault.

    So we have to assume that Cap and gang must've picked up the remains and loaded him onto a quinjet and taken him back to Avengers HQ. So did Bruce Banner even bother trying to fix him? Or did he just get shoved into a closet until Sword came in and cleared him out? I mean even with Shuri snapped, you'd think that Cap and Natasha (who were persona non grata to the U.S. Military at the time) would've said "the Wakandans have the best possibility of fixing him, so let's leave him there." I guess I could see Rhodey being the one who said "Nope, he's a military asset and he's going back to the U.S. Military"

    These are questions I don't expect to ever be answered but that geeks want to know.
    "The monk hits you a shattering blow in the kidneys, luckily this fixes a long standing alignment issue with your spine, gain +10 Move"

    "The evil wizard fireballs you, since the weather has been nasty you are now pleasantly warm, gain immunity from fear effects and cold and necrotic damage "

    "The drow cleric smashes you in the skull with an adamantine mace, this jogs your memory, regain all your used spell slots for the day"

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    Default Re: WandaVision

    i was more thinking Manta as a VILLAIN for Panther. But sure, i'll pay to see that too :P
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    so long as we can put the cannons away and just wave at eachother instead of fighting, then all will be good
    "Cannons?" What cannons? It's a discussion forum, debate and disagreement are to be expected. I don't feel any lines have been crossed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gallowglass View Post
    There's a lot of sketchy concerns to this series of events.

    Vision is destroyed in Wakanda, then the snap happens. Why would the Wakandans hand his body over to the Americans anyway? He was made out of stolen vibranium. You'd expect them to throw him in a vault.

    So we have to assume that Cap and gang must've picked up the remains and loaded him onto a quinjet and taken him back to Avengers HQ. So did Bruce Banner even bother trying to fix him? Or did he just get shoved into a closet until Sword came in and cleared him out? I mean even with Shuri snapped, you'd think that Cap and Natasha (who were persona non grata to the U.S. Military at the time) would've said "the Wakandans have the best possibility of fixing him, so let's leave him there." I guess I could see Rhodey being the one who said "Nope, he's a military asset and he's going back to the U.S. Military"

    These are questions I don't expect to ever be answered but that geeks want to know.
    I suspect they're leaving all the "immediate aftermath of the Snap" details intentionally vague so that other writers can fill in that gap in other media.

    With that said, "how did SWORD end up with his body" could matter a little insofar as it ties into Hayward's own motives for doing so.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
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  11. - Top - End - #581
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    Originally Posted by Gallowglass
    Vision is destroyed in Wakanda, then the snap happens. Why would the Wakandans hand his body over to the Americans anyway? He was made out of stolen vibranium. You'd expect them to throw him in a vault.
    The Wakandans lost both royal heirs in the Snap, as well as half their people like everyone else, so they’re preoccupied with their losses. But they’re still living on a literal mountain of vibranium, whereas the amount of vibranium in Vison’s body probably wouldn’t make more than a couple hoverbikes. In terms of raw materials, his body is trivial compared to their existing resources, and repatriating that tiny amount is just not a priority.

    Originally Posted by Gallowglass
    So did Bruce Banner even bother trying to fix him?
    Thanos left a gaping crater in Vison’s forehead when he ripped out the Mindstone. There would be no point in trying to “fix” Vision, because his synaptic network was torn apart and destroyed. With Vision’s mind gone, reanimating the body would have been worse than useless.

    But chain-of-custody questions are certainly worth asking. I’d be very surprised if Vision’s body hadn’t been interred soon after the Snap, probably at the Avengers compound. It’s hard to imagine Rhodey claiming Vision as military property. Remember that not long before the Snap, Rhodey disobeyed a direct order from the Secretary of State, and he knew that his service career was over. At best he was pending a court-martial, so he wouldn’t have been tasked with something as sensitive as transferring Vision’s remains out of Avengers custody.

    So, did Hayward or someone else disinter Vision’s remains? And if so, when? These are pertinent questions, and I hope we'll get some answers at the end of the week.

  12. - Top - End - #582
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    i'd assume the Avengers as a company just kind of claimed Vision's body. Vision's entire life had been as an Avenger, it only makes sense that he'd go to the Avenger operation. From there, he'd be passed down to the S.W.O.R.D. division for research.
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  13. - Top - End - #583
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallowglass View Post
    So we have to assume that Cap and gang must've picked up the remains and loaded him onto a quinjet and taken him back to Avengers HQ. So did Bruce Banner even bother trying to fix him? Or did he just get shoved into a closet until Sword came in and cleared him out? I mean even with Shuri snapped, you'd think that Cap and Natasha (who were persona non grata to the U.S. Military at the time) would've said "the Wakandans have the best possibility of fixing him, so let's leave him there."
    Others have already answered the first bit, but regarding this: per early episodes of WandaVision, Vision's will stated that he not be brought back to life if killed. I would think his friends and close allies would respect that even though Hayward obviously didn't, so leaving his corpse with whoever would be the best option to fix him is moot.

  14. - Top - End - #584
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    Others have already answered the first bit, but regarding this: per early episodes of WandaVision, Vision's will stated that he not be brought back to life if killed. I would think his friends and close allies would respect that even though Hayward obviously didn't, so leaving his corpse with whoever would be the best option to fix him is moot.
    I've watched all the episodes and I don't remember anything about a "will"

    What episode and when was this?

    And, if its true, then it makes it even more absurd that his corpus ever ended up in the hands of the U.S. Military. Not even Rhodey would've handed it over at that point. It would've been entombed in Wakanda, the safest place for it.
    Last edited by Gallowglass; 2021-03-01 at 08:13 PM.
    "The monk hits you a shattering blow in the kidneys, luckily this fixes a long standing alignment issue with your spine, gain +10 Move"

    "The evil wizard fireballs you, since the weather has been nasty you are now pleasantly warm, gain immunity from fear effects and cold and necrotic damage "

    "The drow cleric smashes you in the skull with an adamantine mace, this jogs your memory, regain all your used spell slots for the day"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post

    Thanos left a gaping crater in Vison’s forehead when he ripped out the Mindstone. There would be no point in trying to “fix” Vision, because his synaptic network was torn apart and destroyed. With Vision’s mind gone, reanimating the body would have been worse than useless.
    yeah, except, a bunch of Sword techies managed to put humpty dumpty back together again. Seems like Bruce, Tony, and the Wakandan tech's could've managed if they bothered to try. I mean, right in the movie they talk about the possibility of his essense surviving without the stone.

    As for the Wakandans being preoccupied, all of the lore so far makes them violently and religiously zealous about preventing the loss of any amount of vibranium. I don't see preoccupation limiting that, rather I'd see it enhancing it.
    Last edited by Gallowglass; 2021-03-01 at 08:19 PM.
    "The monk hits you a shattering blow in the kidneys, luckily this fixes a long standing alignment issue with your spine, gain +10 Move"

    "The evil wizard fireballs you, since the weather has been nasty you are now pleasantly warm, gain immunity from fear effects and cold and necrotic damage "

    "The drow cleric smashes you in the skull with an adamantine mace, this jogs your memory, regain all your used spell slots for the day"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallowglass View Post
    I've watched all the episodes and I don't remember anything about a "will"

    What episode and when was this?
    Episode 5, "On a Very Special Episode" some dialogue between Hayward and Woo.

    HAYWARD: Nine days ago. Maximoff stormed our facility, stole the Vision’s body, and resurrected him.
    WOO: But that’s in direct violation of Section 36 B of the Sokovia Accords.
    HAYWARD: And the Vision’s own living will.
    WOO: He didn’t want to be anybody’s weapon.

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    Sword may have gotten more done if they gave the heroes who failed some therapy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Sword may have gotten more done if they gave the heroes who failed some therapy.
    Call it a wild hunch, but I'm guessing that whichever unsnapped therapists remained intact after the titular event probably had their hands full

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Call it a wild hunch, but I'm guessing that whichever unsnapped therapists remained intact after the titular event probably had their hands full
    True, but the shared nature of the trauma also changes how it is processed by society. It is literally a universal experience. How people feel about it may be different, but it affects how people process trauma when it is individualized vs a group together experiences it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    That's like saying Milk is Water though, sure both are liquids and flow around and fill their containers, but that doesn't mean they're the same thing.
    Depends on the setting. In W40k magic and psionics are one and the same

    About the Asgardians the MCU seems to contniously change it's mind, almost as if they just ebb and flow with what they perceive as the dominant public oppinion.

    At first they played it safe to test out the waters and not offend any religious people. Keeping it all ambiguous aka "magic, science to us just one and the same"

    Then they must have gotten the impression that having deities in the MCU would offended after all and movie 2 went all "WE ARE NO GODS!"

    But then they must have thought that this was worse for their target audience then risking the Ire of some religious groups and movie 3 was all "i am god of", "shes goddess of", "what were you the god of again?" etc.
    Last edited by M1982; 2021-03-02 at 04:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Sword may have gotten more done if they gave the heroes who failed some therapy.
    Sword can either let heroes do whatever they want with no supervision or support, or they can pressgang them as living superweapons. There is literally no middle ground.

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    Originally Posted by Gallowglass
    Seems like Bruce, Tony, and the Wakandan tech's could've managed if they bothered to try. I mean, right in the movie they talk about the possibility of his essense surviving without the stone.
    That was only a possibility if Shuri could rewire his synapses and painstakingly remove the Mindstone. But she never came close to finishing, and the stone was ripped out rather than carefully separated. Thus Vision’s mind was already gone, so it wasn’t a question of “bothering to try.”

    Also, as Kareeah rightly points out, Vision did have a will stipulating he not be brought back—this was indeed mentioned in an earlier episode.

    Originally Posted by Gallowglass
    As for the Wakandans being preoccupied, all of the lore so far makes them violently and religiously zealous about preventing the loss of any amount of vibranium. I don't see preoccupation limiting that, rather I'd see it enhancing it.
    They’ve known for years that Cap has a shield made of vibranium. They’ve never made a move on it. That doesn’t sound violent or religiously zealous; that sounds like people with perspective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JadedDM View Post
    Episode 5, "On a Very Special Episode" some dialogue between Hayward and Woo.

    HAYWARD: Nine days ago. Maximoff stormed our facility, stole the Vision’s body, and resurrected him.
    WOO: But that’s in direct violation of Section 36 B of the Sokovia Accords.
    HAYWARD: And the Vision’s own living will.
    WOO: He didn’t want to be anybody’s weapon.
    Ah okay, yeah I missed that.

    Of course considering it came from Hayward who ONE LINE EARLIER lied about Maximoff stealing the Vision's body I'm not sure its trustworthy.
    "The monk hits you a shattering blow in the kidneys, luckily this fixes a long standing alignment issue with your spine, gain +10 Move"

    "The evil wizard fireballs you, since the weather has been nasty you are now pleasantly warm, gain immunity from fear effects and cold and necrotic damage "

    "The drow cleric smashes you in the skull with an adamantine mace, this jogs your memory, regain all your used spell slots for the day"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallowglass View Post
    Ah okay, yeah I missed that.

    Of course considering it came from Hayward who ONE LINE EARLIER lied about Maximoff stealing the Vision's body I'm not sure its trustworthy.
    Not sure what the point of lying about it would be. Its already a crime from the sokovia accords, and its consistent with Vision's character.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallowglass View Post
    There's a lot of sketchy concerns to this series of events.

    Vision is destroyed in Wakanda, then the snap happens. Why would the Wakandans hand his body over to the Americans anyway? He was made out of stolen vibranium. You'd expect them to throw him in a vault.
    Normally, I'd agree, but their king did get dusted, and it seems they had some pretty heavy casualties...after all, their troops were fighting pre snap, so they lost at least some, and then half got dusted. IIRC, a *lot* of the important folks to Wakanda got dusted, so their leadership was probably in shambles.

    I can see that being so devastating that things they'd normally care about just get ignored in the resulting chaos.

    [quoite]So we have to assume that Cap and gang must've picked up the remains and loaded him onto a quinjet and taken him back to Avengers HQ. So did Bruce Banner even bother trying to fix him? Or did he just get shoved into a closet until Sword came in and cleared him out? [/QUOTE]

    This is sort of an issue with the time jump. It brings up a lot of questions about what happened in the meantime. I get why they did it, but it's certainly a messy plot point that's not been filled in a lot.

    Kind of too bad. Seeing helicopters crash and planes going down at the end of IW, that seemed like kind of an awesome setting to stage things in. Jumping away from that feels like we kinda lost something that could have been awesome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gallowglass View Post
    I've watched all the episodes and I don't remember anything about a "will"

    What episode and when was this?
    I believe Hayward says it in the first episode we meet him in? In any case, Hayward's statement may be, well, unreliable. After all, it is literally in the same bit where he's trying to make Wanda appear to have gone totally rogue.

    The dude is a bit short in the credibility department.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    True, but the shared nature of the trauma also changes how it is processed by society. It is literally a universal experience. How people feel about it may be different, but it affects how people process trauma when it is individualized vs a group together experiences it.
    I don't see how that makes the prospect of obtaining therapy any easier though. It might be universal, but it's also completely unprecedented, impacted every support network around the world simultaneously etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by M1982 View Post
    Depends on the setting. In W40k magic and psionics are one and the same

    About the Asgardians the MCU seems to contniously change it's mind, almost as if they just ebb and flow with what they perceive as the dominant public oppinion.

    At first they played it safe to test out the waters and not offend any religious people. Keeping it all ambiguous aka "magic, science to us just one and the same"

    Then they must have gotten the impression that having deities in the MCU would offended after all and movie 2 went all "WE ARE NO GODS!"

    But then they must have thought that this was worse for their target audience then risking the Ire of some religious groups and movie 3 was all "i am god of", "shes goddess of", "what were you the god of again?" etc.
    I've seen no indication that the MCU was worried about any such things. "We are no gods" refers to Asgardians' fallibility, not audience concerns. Link to an interview?

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    They’ve known for years that Cap has a shield made of vibranium. They’ve never made a move on it. That doesn’t sound violent or religiously zealous; that sounds like people with perspective.
    Did the vibranium for cap's shield come from Wakanda? Honest question, I genuinely don't know. The army made it from the only supply they had available, but I don't recall if they ever said what that supply was.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post

    Did the vibranium for cap's shield come from Wakanda? Honest question, I genuinely don't know. The army made it from the only supply they had available, but I don't recall if they ever said what that supply was.
    Black Panther established that some Vibranium had made it out of Wakanda. There were those Vibranium axes in the British museum. The US government could have gotten it's hands on some and just thought "Huh, look at this super rare metal! We have no idea where they actually pull this stuff out of the ground from".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Did the vibranium for cap's shield come from Wakanda? Honest question, I genuinely don't know. The army made it from the only supply they had available, but I don't recall if they ever said what that supply was.
    Howard Stark made it, but we don't have a clear source for where it came from. Wakanda seems likely, because the material is called out as very rare, and that's the obvious source, but we don't know for sure how it was acquired.

    It's also unclear how a vibranium axe ended up in a museum. Wakanda hasn't actually been colonized and is deeply isolationist, so...maybe Klau stole that too? Seems like a stretch since he very clearly only did a single job there, but it's the best lead available. It seems even less likely that Klau provided Howard Stark with the material because of the timeline.

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    Default Re: WandaVision

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Howard Stark made it, but we don't have a clear source for where it came from. Wakanda seems likely, because the material is called out as very rare, and that's the obvious source, but we don't know for sure how it was acquired.

    It's also unclear how a vibranium axe ended up in a museum. Wakanda hasn't actually been colonized and is deeply isolationist, so...maybe Klau stole that too? Seems like a stretch since he very clearly only did a single job there, but it's the best lead available. It seems even less likely that Klau provided Howard Stark with the material because of the timeline.
    Killmonger said that British Soldiers took the axes from Benin, so it sounds like some Vibranium made it's way out of Wakanda to Benin a long time ago, where the axes were looted by the British and taken to the museum.
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    Default Re: WandaVision

    Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
    Howard Stark made it, but we don't have a clear source for where it came from.
    This is referenced in Age of Ultron, starting at 41:45, when they’re discussing Klaue:

    Stark: “If this guy got out of Wakanda with some of their trade goods….”
    Cap: “I thought your father said he got the last of it.”
    Banner: “I don’t follow. What comes out of Wakanda?”
    Stark: “The strongest metal on Earth.”

    —And we end the scene with a closeup of Cap’s shield. The strong implication is that the vibranium which formed the shield came from Wakanda, and at the time it was assumed that was all there was.

    Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
    It's also unclear how a vibranium axe ended up in a museum.
    Originally Posted by BRC
    Killmonger said that British Soldiers took the axes from Benin, so it sounds like some Vibranium made it's way out of Wakanda to Benin a long time ago, where the axes were looted by the British and taken to the museum.
    The museum director said it was 7th century from Benin, but the implication was that it was older. It makes sense that vibranium items could have found their way all across Africa in previous centuries, either stolen or given as trade goods or diplomatic gifts. Wakanda may be isolationist now, but there may have been occasional periods of openness long ago.

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