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Thread: WandaVision

  1. - Top - End - #901
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnoc View Post
    Admittedly this has not been spelled out and the *source* of the powers was muddied by Ragnarok but it seems clear that Asgardians can do certain things innately based on being god of x. Thor is god of thunder so he can do lightning things, Hela is the god of death so she gets blades and zombies etc. Doing things outside of their purview, illusions for Odin, resurrecting Surtur for Loki, possibly prophecy for Frigga (that last one would definitely be in her domain in Myth but in Endgame she ties her time sensing shenanigans to being raised by witches) are magic.
    Hela's movie powers are a pastiche of other sources - most notably a fairly recent Thor villain named Gorr the God-Butcher, who can pull weapons out of thin air that are particularly lethal to gods (Asgardians in this case.) The creators (specifically Brad Winterbaum) have gone on-record that he was a direct inspiration for movie Hela. They did this because her standard comic powerset of random spells and death touch and necromancy etc was a bit too broad and vague for what they wanted to be a more focused conflict. See below for more:



    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    See, this is hyperbole. I never said we needed the full contents of the chapter of the Darkhold. We just need a bit more than we got.
    And I disagree, so let's leave it at that where the Darkhold is concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    This is incorrect. Monica is almost never filmed independently of other POV characters. When she is in the hex, she is seen almost entirely from the viewpoint of Wanda.
    This is only the case when she is "Geraldine." When she re-enters, she does so as her own distinct POV. We know this for sure because of the Captain Marvel voiceovers they replay while she is getting her powers, none of which Wanda could have possibly known. This is clearly Monica's POV.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Ultimately, the allies don't affect Wanda's narrative much in any case. They're all sidelined for the actual showdown. So, the skillsets don't matter in the slightest.
    ...
    Darcy, for starters. How does Darcy impact Wanda? I can list more, but let's keep it to one for now. Wanda's arc is coming to grips with her loss. How does Darcy affect how she does this?
    False. Jimmy is instrumental for bringing enforcement agencies that Hayward doesn't control, which ends the SWORD/military assault. Darcy is instrumental for giving Mindstone-Vision the crucial information about the outside and his own memories that he needs to ultimately defeat WhiteVision and save Wanda; more directly, she is also the reason Hayward isn't able to flee the scene and escape justice. And finally, Monica keeps Agatha's Fietro Dragon from intervening, as well as her powers being established here setting up both what she can do and her presence in Captain Marvel 2, saving valuable screentime. It's all connected, all necessary, and all "basic writing stuff."

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    If you build the mystery, and then just drop the plot or throw out a cheesy one liner to justify not answering, people are put out.
    ...
    WHY does she want power? "I want more power" for no other reason is a munchkin's motivation for a character, not a complex character.
    Why did Nick Fury think the world needed a team of superheroes back in Iron Man 1? Why did Thanos want the stones back in Avengers 1? Those questions were left open until future movies too (Captain Marvel and Infinity War respectively), and I didn't see you or anyone else complaining then. Certainly not enough people to matter.

    It's enough to know that she thinks letting Wanda keep it is dangerous (and, based on what we saw, might even be correct to think that.) She doesn't actually need to have a stated plan for that power herself in this series beyond believing she is better suited to safeguard it, though they've left the possibility open that she might have had something more specific in mind. If you want no possibilities left open and everything spoonfed to you right away, this might not be the franchise for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Probability is largely from the comics, it hasn't been a part of the MCU rendition.
    A probability hex is explicitly how she keeps the Stark bomb from exploding. Unless you don't think episode 8 took place in the MCU.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    As for the rest, you've frequently misrepresented my arguments, to include ignoring context of the back and forth. When I noted that a character had to either have an arc or contribute to Wandas, you alternated between acting as if I had said only one of those things. In this post, there's the darkhold hyperbole.
    I genuinely don't know how else to interpret your dissatisfaction with the Darkhold than you wanting the entire magic system handed to you on a platter." Certainly "we need more" is far too vague to engage with seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Things like "Why is the other quicksilver here" are mostly just ignored. Those are broken promises, and if the writer is to be believed, intentionally so. That's kind of a let down.
    Then be let down. All I can say is I'm not.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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  2. - Top - End - #902
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    Default Re: WandaVision

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    As for vagueness being a perk, eh. The individual stories have to stand on their own merits, or the overarching story doesn't matter.
    Why? Experience is experience, not ever experiences "matters" and some experiences are significant and pleasurable even if they do not have a cycle of meaning, investment, and enchantment instilled with them.

    How many news stories will you forget in a lifetime, how many sitcoms, reality tv, etc?

    The story stands on its own even if you look at it closely it may not satisfy, but that is an aesthetic preference where something may satisfy one person but not another?
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  3. - Top - End - #903
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnoc View Post
    resurrecting Surtur for Loki
    That was magic, but not Loki's magic. The crown and the eternal flame did all the resurrecting. Loki just tossed one in the other. I had always hoped we'd get more Aesgardians as...well...specially empowered individuals with specific spheres of influence/ability that could be construed as...you know...Gods. Guess that can only be in flashbacks/time jumps/early stories now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    False. Jimmy is instrumental for bringing enforcement agencies that Hayward doesn't control, which ends the SWORD/military assault. Darcy is instrumental for giving Mindstone-Vision the crucial information about the outside and his own memories that he needs to ultimately defeat WhiteVision and save Wanda; more directly, she is also the reason Hayward isn't able to flee the scene and escape justice. And finally, Monica keeps Agatha's Fietro Dragon from intervening, as well as her powers being established here setting up both what she can do and her presence in Captain Marvel 2, saving valuable screentime. It's all connected, all necessary, and all "basic writing stuff."
    I think Monica is very important - she is our vehicle for discovery - but she didn't really do anything related to Fietro, did she? He wasn't even a mook, it seemed, at that point. Jimmy, like you said, is an important conduit to outside forces. Plot-important.

    Darcy stopped Hayward because...well, everyone else let her. That was fanservice, and could have been handled narratively a dozen other ways...and I hate the character so there may be a little bias there.

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  4. - Top - End - #904
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mordar View Post
    I think Monica is very important - she is our vehicle for discovery - but she didn't really do anything related to Fietro, did she? He wasn't even a mook, it seemed, at that point. Jimmy, like you said, is an important conduit to outside forces. Plot-important.
    She took him off the board. If Monica wasn't there, Agatha would have undoubtedly used him against Wanda during the fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordar View Post
    Darcy stopped Hayward because...well, everyone else let her. That was fanservice, and could have been handled narratively a dozen other ways...and I hate the character so there may be a little bias there.
    That was the lesser of the two things I mentioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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  5. - Top - End - #905
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    If the show wants us to understand how Wanda is special, then it needs to show us the distinction, not merely have a character tell us.
    Yeah just having Agatha declare Wanda to be the Evil Chosen One was kind of cheesy and stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Probably just TK, which she's done repeatedly. Though if it's explained as some obscure bomb stopping power, I agree that would be odd given her later failure to do just that. That doesn't seem like a reasonable conclusion, though, and it seems unlikely that there will be some later reveal of her having a bomb specific power.
    IIRC Agatha said it was a ‘probability hex.’

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordar View Post
    I think Monica is very important - she is our vehicle for discovery - but she didn't really do anything related to Fietro, did she? He wasn't even a mook, it seemed, at that point.
    She took the necklace off him and found out the ‘Ralph Bohner’ real name.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordar View Post
    Darcy stopped Hayward because...well, everyone else let her. That was fanservice, and could have been handled narratively a dozen other ways...and I hate the character so there may be a little bias there.
    One of the reviews I read said they couldn’t get her back for reshoots due to COVID. Admittedly this doesn’t give her more narrative use or importance.

  6. - Top - End - #906
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    She took him off the board. If Monica wasn't there, Agatha would have undoubtedly used him against Wanda during the fight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    She took the necklace off him and found out the ‘Ralph Bohner’ real name.
    I need to rewatch, I think. How did she get it off a speedster, if even a cheap low-rent speedster?

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  7. - Top - End - #907
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mordar View Post
    I need to rewatch, I think. How did she get it off a speedster, if even a cheap low-rent speedster?

    - M
    Flipped him on his back and sat on him IIRC. Then yanked the necklace off. It wasn’t a terribly exciting fight.

  8. - Top - End - #908
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    WandaVision was so much fun! The ending was a bit of a let down for me, I was expecting them to go a bit bigger/splashier with the ending. Still, it was a solid show and a great first outing by Marvel.

  9. - Top - End - #909
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    This is only the case when she is "Geraldine." When she re-enters, she does so as her own distinct POV. We know this for sure because of the Captain Marvel voiceovers they replay while she is getting her powers, none of which Wanda could have possibly known. This is clearly Monica's POV.
    Captain Marvel voiceovers are absolutely not important to this narrative. Her POV provides almost no unique part of it.

    False. Jimmy is instrumental for bringing enforcement agencies that Hayward doesn't control, which ends the SWORD/military assault. Darcy is instrumental for giving Mindstone-Vision the crucial information about the outside and his own memories that he needs to ultimately defeat WhiteVision and save Wanda; more directly, she is also the reason Hayward isn't able to flee the scene and escape justice. And finally, Monica keeps Agatha's Fietro Dragon from intervening, as well as her powers being established here setting up both what she can do and her presence in Captain Marvel 2, saving valuable screentime. It's all connected, all necessary, and all "basic writing stuff."
    And you could easily compress all of that down to one character if your focus is saving valuable screentime, as you put it. Which character? Eh. Dealer's choice. Though probably not Darcy, because she lacks relevant connections. Monica has agency connections and if you want her to get superpowers for other reasons, then you just have Monica handle all those functions, with the other characters as a cameo or not appearing at all.

    And the stopping of Pietro was...pretty much an afterthought. Neither that nor confronting Harward were confrontations of note. They pretty much just won for...reasons. Both of the enemies just grabbed the idiot ball with both hands. Coulda been cooler fights.

    Why did Nick Fury think the world needed a team of superheroes back in Iron Man 1? Why did Thanos want the stones back in Avengers 1? Those questions were left open until future movies too (Captain Marvel and Infinity War respectively), and I didn't see you or anyone else complaining then. Certainly not enough people to matter.
    Nick Fury serves a purpose to the narrative. Thanos did not occupy significant screen time.

    Those examples are both fine.

    It's enough to know that she thinks letting Wanda keep it is dangerous (and, based on what we saw, might even be correct to think that.) She doesn't actually need to have a stated plan for that power herself in this series beyond believing she is better suited to safeguard it, though they've left the possibility open that she might have had something more specific in mind. If you want no possibilities left open and everything spoonfed to you right away, this might not be the franchise for you.
    I feel like giving your main baddie a slightly more complex motivation is hardly demanding plot spoonfed.

    A probability hex is explicitly how she keeps the Stark bomb from exploding. Unless you don't think episode 8 took place in the MCU.
    It's one way to interpret that, fair. But that still doesn't get you Wanda granting powers outside of the Hex.

    I genuinely don't know how else to interpret your dissatisfaction with the Darkhold than you wanting the entire magic system handed to you on a platter." Certainly "we need more" is far too vague to engage with seriously.
    I am talking about plotting issues, and you're acting as if I want narration of trivia. These things are not even vaguely the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Why? Experience is experience, not ever experiences "matters" and some experiences are significant and pleasurable even if they do not have a cycle of meaning, investment, and enchantment instilled with them.

    How many news stories will you forget in a lifetime, how many sitcoms, reality tv, etc?

    The story stands on its own even if you look at it closely it may not satisfy, but that is an aesthetic preference where something may satisfy one person but not another?
    Sure, tons of things in life are not terribly great.

    And they totally deserve criticism for being so. People criticize things like reality TV. The implied subtext is that a story should have these things in order to be good. Stories are made with all sorts of quality, and there's nothing inherently wrong with enjoying even a bad story, but criticism on that quality remains far.

    Wandavision overall isn't bad. It just had kind of a lackluster ending in some respects, and some of us are poking at why.
    Last edited by Tyndmyr; 2021-03-26 at 10:26 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #910
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Captain Marvel voiceovers are absolutely not important to this narrative. Her POV provides almost no unique part of it.
    They absolutely are, because it's an interaction Wanda couldn't have possibly known about, anchoring that scene in Monica's perspective. It's also a meaningful callback in its own right, signifying Monica's "graduation" from the regular human side of the MCU to its metahuman side - exactly the boundary Nick Fury drew for her as a child when keeping her out of danger then. This ties directly into the final scene when she gets recruited.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    And you could easily compress all of that down to one character if your focus is saving valuable screentime, as you put it.
    Developing additional characters who will be in future properties is valuable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Nick Fury serves a purpose to the narrative. Thanos did not occupy significant screen time.
    Not in that movie. And "significant screentime" is obviously different between a 90-minute movie and a 7-8 hour tv series, or it should be obvious anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    I feel like giving your main baddie a slightly more complex motivation is hardly demanding plot spoonfed.
    Complexity doesn't need to be frontloaded.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    It's one way to interpret that, fair.
    Her explicit statement is not "one way to interpret that." It's fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    I am talking about plotting issues, and you're acting as if I want narration of trivia. These things are not even vaguely the same.
    I don't think your concerns are trivia, but I do think they are unreasonable. Needing every detail of the magic system spoonfed and spelled out ahead of time is not reasonable. Needing the villain to bring the episode to a screeching halt so they can monologue at length on their plans for Wanda's power is also unreasonable. Wanting unreasonable things makes your objections hard to take seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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  11. - Top - End - #911
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Developing additional characters who will be in future properties is valuable.
    Not to this story.

    The value of development for some other, yet to be made story is inherently nil at present. It might be paid off and be cool in the future. Probably not, though. The MCU is extremely careful to set up characters in the movie they are in without requiring a ton of previous watching. This is smart on their part.

    But it also means it cannot actually save future screen time.

    Complexity doesn't need to be frontloaded.
    It quite literally does.

    That's why foreshadowing exists. If you explain how something works early, and that's used at the climax to defeat the villain(or any other important purpose), cool. If you don't bother to explain it at all, or stop the fight scene to explain how it works, you've mucked up your foreshadowing.

  12. - Top - End - #912
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Not to this story.
    Yes to this story. You're asking why they didn't consolidate the roles of these side-characters into one person. I already laid out for you the very different impacts Darcy, Jimmy, and Monica had on this narrative - with just one character you're asking that person to have the connection to outside law enforcement, to meeting Mindstone-Vision to give him crucial information inside the Hex, to meeting Wanda and giving her crucial information inside the Hex, being endangered by Hayward on the outside of the Hex and capable of being involved in the battles on the inside. It's nonsensical, and entirely unnecessary when simply having more than one person accomplishes the same objective, while also adding value to future stories.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    It quite literally does.

    That's why foreshadowing exists.
    They are using foreshadowing. What exactly do you think "It's your destiny to destroy the world" is supposed to be? Flavor text?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
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