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Thread: WandaVision

  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Default Re: WandaVision

    So this movie is only a few months away from being 5 years old now.

    No more MutantsToo Many Sorcerers?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Well, in addition to an energy source being used to fire a laser not being much of a stretch, Vision's non-mental powers also fit with "the stones are connected" theory. (It's not like he was secretly a mutant all along, after all.)

    But for the record, if the only explanation we get is "she's a mutant/inhuman/etc and the stone was nothing more than a catalyst" I'm totally okay with that too. It doesn't change my belief that this is not just an delusion or mental facsimile we're working with, his behavior in the show is too "three-dimensional" for me to believe that.
    Oh yeah. Like if the answer is "exposure to the stone's energy activated the X-Gene" then that's fine.

    And yeah, I think Vision is Vision physically resurrected (because robit) without his memories, because that fits the pattern of what Wanda is doing to everyone else. (the sitcom format represents a world where nothing really bad ever happens, which fits what I said before about Wanda creating a life where she can retreat from trauma. Wanda's power is sufficient to the task of doing that now.)

    But y'know, the one power someone is guaranteed not to get from an Infinity Stone is one that is specifically related to what that stone allegedly "does".

  3. - Top - End - #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post

    And yeah, I think Vision is Vision physically resurrected (because robit) without his memories, because that fits the pattern of what Wanda is doing to everyone else. (the sitcom format represents a world where nothing really bad ever happens, which fits what I said before about Wanda creating a life where she can retreat from trauma. Wanda's power is sufficient to the task of doing that now.)
    In Infinity War, Shuri was trying to detatch the Vision's neural or synaptic connections to the Soul Stone, so that it could be removed without killing him and then destroyed. She did some of that, but not all of it. I would guess that getting the Soul Stone removed shut off his power source, and when Wanda somehow powered him up again his memory is not complete because a lot of his CPU was damaged.
    Last edited by Clertar; 2021-02-11 at 11:52 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clertar View Post
    I would guess that getting the Soul Stone removed shut off his power source,
    Mind stone*

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    But y'know, the one power someone is guaranteed not to get from an Infinity Stone is one that is specifically related to what that stone allegedly "does".
    I wouldn't go that far either; she definitely has Mind powers. And Carol's flight and even energy blasts feel fine with the Space stone to me - it it can power spaceship engines and wormhole generators then it can definitely do that. (i.e. it wasn't just moving that stuff around and making wormholes, it was also functioning like a regular battery to power onboard systems, lights etc.)

    I agree with the rest though.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2021-02-11 at 08:11 PM.

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    honestly i'm not convinced that Wanda, Pietro, Captain Marvel, and maybe even Vision's powers aren't all different aspects of their related stones. It could just be that all stones share some similar aspects.

    To get the Space stone out of the way, Captain Marvel appears to have the ability to generate and manipulate her own form of energy, useful for not only flight, but also energy blasts and protection from the vacuum of space. If we look to Red skull for a moment, who touched the space stone and was transported to the Soul stone, that's movement through space, movement that likely required and generated a lot of energy. It could be that Captain Marvel's power is the energy required to move rapidly through space, or move physical objects via brute force. Since she's intelligent, she's just capable of manipulating this energy in unintended ways, such as forcing it out an a projectile or using it to move her own body.

    For Wanda, i feel like a lot of her abilities are pretty obvious. her power came from the Mind stone, and a lot of it appears to be largely psychic-like in nature. Telepathy and Telekinesis and so on. The mind stone gave her mind the ability to manipulate and generate matter and energy, allowing her to merely think something and make it happen. Due to her intelligence, this can be utilized in unexpected ways, such as reaching out and manipulating the minds of others, or using her mind to manipulate reality inside a localized area, the hex. Since she seems to be like Captain Marvel in that she appears to have nearly limitless raw power, she can "program" things to happen without her conscious thought. Basically she fed a lot of energy into creating the Hex bubble, and told it "run sitcom.1940.exe" and it just ran it, manipulating everything within to her specifications until it's orders changed.

    Pietro is definitely more difficult. Granted we only saw one movie with him, so it's hard to gauge his abilities, but best i'd guess, he also inherited the "limitless energy" thing that Wanda and Marvel got, but he either got less exposure to the mind stone then Wanda did, or it was simply directed a different way. I'd say Pietro's power is increased mental speed, his brain is able to run on overdrive, thinking and sensing things faster then everyone else, and he can manipulate this speed to the rest of his body, thus his ability to move incredibly fast. Had he not died, we may have seen more creative uses of this, such as changing the motion of his molecules to allow him to phase right through solid matter like Vision can, or learn years worth of information in the span of a moment much like DC's "The Flash" is able too when he needs to quickly re-build a collapsing building.

    Vision i'd think is doing something similar to Pietro, he's able to think and move faster with manipulation of his own mind, but he's also able to focus the limitless energy of the mind stone into a beam much like Marvel's energy blasts. He can will his molecules into a different motion to phase through objects, and possibly even fly via willing his body mass to simply "go up". His shapeshifting could be similar as well, the mind stone allowing him to will his molecules into taking on any kind of appearance he desires. Of course it's hard to determine what powers come from the mind stone, and what powers come from being a vibranium robot, as you've basically taken two of the most overpowered things in the MCU and combined them into one.

    Were anyone else to get powers from the other stones, I'd suspect that they'd all be capable of the same energy blasts as Wanda, Vision, and Marvel, just through the ability to manipulate near infinite energy. Power may focus more on physical capability, ending up more like the Hulk with sheer brute strength, but they could also be more like Electro, manipulating energy in it's purest form. Time would likely get the ability to make things age or de-age of course, but may also be able to do things such as induce rust, freeze people in place, create doorways simply by changing a location's time to a period where it wasn't full of matter, and remain immortal by freezing their body in time. that's not even counting more imaginative abilities they could possibly use. Reality i feel could just be an entire Dr.Manhatten situation, able to manipulate any molecule or energy around them, beyond even their own. And soul... who knows with Soul? We don't really even know what it does in the MCU. Perhaps it'd work similar to Loki's staff in allowing the infused individual to manipulate or mind-control people to do whatever they want, detect lies, corruption, possibly even track people. There is no confirmed afterlife in the MCU, so we're not really sure what it could possibly do.
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  6. - Top - End - #276
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    Default Re: WandaVision

    Black Panther clearly showed at least one afterlife, so there's that.
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    Default Re: WandaVision

    Spoiler: Episode 6
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    Director Hayward is running a real clownshoes operation out there, huh?

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    My take on it:

    Infinity stone magic is bull**** physics that gets modified to suit the needed plot. Powers of Wanda in relation to the Mind Stone is what the writers want. They will make up an excuse that will make sort of sense if they need one, but it won't be one that has been thought out ahead of time.

    In the meanwhile, we'll get to enjoy fun character beats, interactions and plot points because fun character beats, interactions and plot points are what actually matter in all these shows and movies, not the minutia of the bull**** made-up magico-physics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
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    Director Hayward is running a real clownshoes operation out there, huh?
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    Apt description.

    Also, standard for a military commander in the Marvel universe. They learn it at the Thunderbolt Ross school of metahuman relations.

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    Originally Posted by theNater
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    Director Hayward is running a real clownshoes operation out there, huh?
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    Yeah, he sure sent in the clowns.




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    So, this episode…happened.

    Not sure what to think about any of it. Was Vision somehow able to recreate a version of the Mindstone? Is he able to tap into Wanda’s power to reshape himself? Has Wanda somehow also reanimated Pietro, despite seeming confused about his appearance?

    Many more questions than answers.


    Spoiler: Not Career-Enhancing
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    Unfortunately, one scene early on completely broke verisimilitude for me, which was the rather cartoonish exchange in the command center between Heyward and the Three Amigos. Yes, Darcy smarted off as she often does, but the writing and acting started to feel like something out of the CW for the rest of that scene.

    Worse yet was Woo’s response of starting a fistfight with the guards. Woo is career FBI, and he knows that assaulting anyone will be damaging to his career. Assaulting federal law enforcement officers will immediately end his career and almost certainly land him in prison.

    He knows this, and it seems completely out of character for him to start punching people. In his prior MCU appearance he was straight-laced and by the book. More than that—there don’t seem to be any personal stakes compelling enough for him to throw away his career. It would’ve been far easier, and much less career-ending, for him to simply be ferried off-base and then slip right back in. He could maybe talk his way out of the latter, but not punching people.

    Of course, by the time this is over he’ll have saved the world and all will be forgiven, but right at that moment it made no sense for the character to do what he did.


    Spoiler: Commercial
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    The commercial really baffled me this time. Sort of an anti-commercial, but what’s its connection to anything?
    Last edited by Palanan; 2021-02-12 at 10:11 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #281
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    Default Re: WandaVision

    Quote Originally Posted by Sholos View Post
    Black Panther clearly showed at least one afterlife, so there's that.
    oh yeah, forgot about that.

    to be fair, he'd also just inhaled some kind of vibranium fruit or something. Could also just be really really high and hallucinating.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
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    The commercial really baffled me this time. Sort of an anti-commercial, but what’s its connection to anything?
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    I think it's about being able to open up "yo magic" to save yourself? I don't know if the kid is supposed to relate to Wanda or to Wiccan, though.

    If, like other commercials, it's a commentary on past events, it might represent Mefisto or Nightmare offering Wanda more magical powers, which would lead to her creating the Hex.
    "Like the old proverb says, if one sees something not right, one must draw out his sword to intervene"

  13. - Top - End - #283
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    I have a thematic disconnect here.

    Outside westview, the plotline is pretty clearly

    Good Trio, who wants to Help Wanda, vs Evil Jerkface Director Haywood, who wants to kill her.

    Now, there is a lot to be said for "We don't know what will happen if we just kill her" and trying to talk to Wanda as the safer option. But from what we've seen, Wanda is holding thousands of people hostage in a state of agony and terror. Haywood's response isn't unreasonable.


    Haywood is clearly being shady, sure, but Monica being all "We need to help Wanda!" just didn't sell for me.

    Also, it bothered me that Darcy, an astrophysicist, just hollywood-hacked her way into the laptop. Yeah yeah, hollywood hacking, I know, and I'd buy it from a superspy or tech genius hacker type, but not every "Smart" character needs to be a superhacker.

    (On a similar note, yeah, named characters vs faceless mooks, but Woo and Monica taking out six SWORD guards in hand-to-hand bothered me as well).

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    Default Re: WandaVision

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
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    Apt description.

    Also, standard for a military commander in the Marvel universe. They learn it at the Thunderbolt Ross school of metahuman relations.
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    Yea and it quite gets on my nerves, the show seems to want to deliberately frame the scenario like the very idea of of putting a hit on Wanda is just inherently wrong... but... there is an entire town full of people being tortured here and it's an option that deserves to be on the table. Instead they decide Hayward just needs to be cartoonish evil while the main trio spouts lazy platitudes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
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    Yea and it quite gets on my nerves, the show seems to want to deliberately frame the scenario like the very idea of of putting a hit on Wanda is just inherently wrong... but... there is an entire town full of people being tortured here and it's an option that deserves to be on the table. Instead they decide Hayward just needs to be cartoonish evil while the main trio spouts lazy platitudes.
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    I feel like they could make it work if they didn't establish that everybody in the town was being tortured.

    OR if they played up the Risk angle. "She's rewriting reality, she dosn't seem to have full control over it. Who knows what killing her would do, let's get more information and see if we can't diffuse the situation"
    Last edited by BRC; 2021-02-12 at 11:17 AM.
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    Default Re: WandaVision

    Hayward

    Spoiler: Episode 6 and Hayward
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    Of course Hayward has some good points, but he is not to be trusted.

    There is an authoritarian and anti-authoritarian temperament matter here concerning judgement. Hayward will not even consider viewpoints not his own, that there may be different angles not considered. No he is speaking for sword and sword only has one viewpoint, one story, and only one director writing the story. This is purposeful writing choices.

    Hayward may have points about a city under hostage, but that he is not even considering hazards he did not see or think of indicates us, the audience, his judgement is not to be trusted. Now not everyone that is an audience member will feel this way but for a large group of people it is like a loud noise going through a siren horn saying he may be the boss here, but this boss is going to get people killed, and in an ideal world one would find a new boss or get the hell away from there as soon as possible.

    I talked about earlier about how Monica is Wanda’s mirror in some ways. Well Hayward, the director is Wanda’s top-down control mirror where his version of Sword is very similar to Wanda, or whoever is animating the Hex, top down control over the Westview town.

    He, Hayward, is going to get people killed, and like the Three Musketeers or Vision we have to figure a way out of this “cult of personality” before people get killed.
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    Default Re: WandaVision

    so i feel like this episode firmly established a few things.

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    1. It might not be, but i wouldn't be surprised if that was actually Pietro's corpse walking around as Wanda's brother, considering he both had the same zombie-vision thing as Vision, AND is acutely aware of what's going on, just like Vision. Corpses it seem have some degree of immunity to Wanda's control. Why he looks different still remains to be seen, perhaps he's much more decayed then Vision, and the Hex needed to re-build him more, causing more visible changes? With the questions he was asking Wanda, i'm almost positive that SWORD or someone else intentionally sent him in there as a spy. they somehow told or programmed him to ask those questions or have a certain point of view, and are using him to get answers such as "Where did the children go?" "how are you doing this?" "why are you doing this?" etc. I wouldn't be surprised if that file Darcy had dug up was relevant to sending in Pietro.

    2. The bit at the end there with Wanda expanding the hex, i feel like it all but confirms that this is 100% Wanda's doing without any kind of outside influence. There is no Mephisto or Multiverse of Madness shenanigans, all of this is just because of Wanda, and she's the one in the pilot seat of everything.

    3. Agnes definitely is not part of this, she was just as panicked as everyone else when she was freed from Wanda's control. i suspect everything we've seen about her that was suspect, the lack of a real identity, the witch costume, the similarity of her name to Agitha Harkness, it was probably all a red herring to make Comic-readers believe Mephisto is involved when really it's much simpler then that.

    not sure if i had any points beyond those 3 when starting this. Interesting to see the twins have their own powers though, kind of a shame that they seem to just be copies of Wanda and Pietro. Was hoping they'd have something more unique, separate from the aging-up of course.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
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    1. It might not be, but i wouldn't be surprised if that was actually Pietro's corpse walking around as Wanda's brother, considering he both had the same zombie-vision thing as Vision, AND is acutely aware of what's going on, just like Vision. Corpses it seem have some degree of immunity to Wanda's control. Why he looks different still remains to be seen, perhaps he's much more decayed then Vision, and the Hex needed to re-build him more, causing more visible changes? With the questions he was asking Wanda, i'm almost positive that SWORD or someone else intentionally sent him in there as a spy. they somehow told or programmed him to ask those questions or have a certain point of view, and are using him to get answers such as "Where did the children go?" "how are you doing this?" "why are you doing this?" etc. I wouldn't be surprised if that file Darcy had dug up was relevant to sending in Pietro.
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    Hold on. The Hex ‘rebuilding’ Pietro and SWORD somehow programming him as a spy are kind of mutually exclusive. How exactly would they program a years-old corpse? And they can’t have done it afterwards, half their problem is that they can’t get anyone or anything into the Hex, hence Monica’s aerospace engineer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
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    Hold on. The Hex ‘rebuilding’ Pietro and SWORD somehow programming him as a spy are kind of mutually exclusive. How exactly would they program a years-old corpse? And they can’t have done it afterwards, half their problem is that they can’t get anyone or anything into the Hex, hence Monica’s aerospace engineer.
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    i don't know man, maybe they shoved a microchip filled with questions to ask into Pietro's brain or something. then when the hex re-built him, it had to incorporate the data on the microchip into him in the same way that the bullet-proof vest was incorperated into Monica's hex-clothes.

    They've gotten plenty of things and people into the hex. Monica, her drone, the guy in the hazmat suit, the drone with the missile, more recently themselves, the problem is having all that stuff still be useful to them without falling under Wanda's spell. They know Monica's vest maintained the properties of her outfit when she first went in, and they know they could still control the Drone when it was period-appropriate, and they know Vision was a corpse who is now alive, and they know that Wanda's life specifically is broadcast to their TV's as a sitcom. So what do you get when you combine all that?

    Take a corpse, combine it with non-period technology so that it gets altered and incorporated into the corpse, place it in the hex, and have the hex re-animate it. the Corpse is alive, the non-period technology is now physically a part of it, and since it's specifically Pietro, someone important to Wanda, it's all but guaranteed that it'll make it onto the the sitcom, thus possibly getting some of the answers they are looking for broadcast right to them.

    i mean given what we've seen, i'd say it's a hell of a lot more plausible then "It's "The Devil" who we've never seen, was never hinted at, has never been named, has zero in-universe evidence for it's existence, and has motivations that just happen to coincidentally line up with the motivations of the main character who everyone believes is responsible for all of this".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
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    Yea and it quite gets on my nerves, the show seems to want to deliberately frame the scenario like the very idea of of putting a hit on Wanda is just inherently wrong... but... there is an entire town full of people being tortured here and it's an option that deserves to be on the table. Instead they decide Hayward just needs to be cartoonish evil while the main trio spouts lazy platitudes.
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    I mean it is, it is in violation of the right to due process in the 5th Amendment (no person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property without the due process of law).

    But even beyond that Hayward is an incompetent boob, who had absolutely no idea what level of force was going to be required to accomplish his objective. He made no attempt to determine the scope of the threat and prepare an appropriate response and used an absolutely pathetically inadequate method. It wasn't just "inherently wrong", it was ****ing stupid. Anyone who has that sort of approach has absolutely no business being anywhere near the planning of a military operation, not even bringing the people doing the actual planning their tea and slippers.

    That's why it's so apt his base got turned into a circus. Because he's a clown.
    Last edited by GloatingSwine; 2021-02-12 at 02:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
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    I mean it is, it is in violation of the right to due process in the 5th Amendment (no person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property without the due process of law).
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    Uhhhh, not how that works actually but also is beside the point



    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
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    But even beyond that Hayward is an incompetent boob, who had absolutely no idea what level of force was going to be required to accomplish his objective. He made no attempt to determine the scope of the threat and prepare an appropriate response and used an absolutely pathetically inadequate method. It wasn't just "inherently wrong", it was ****ing stupid. Anyone who has that sort of approach has absolutely no business being anywhere near the planning of a military operation, not even bringing the people doing the actual planning their tea and slippers.

    That's why it's so apt his base got turned into a circus. Because he's a clown.
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    Yes, I am aware he is a clown. That's why I'm annoyed, the show is actively conflating the idea of shooting Wanda to save all those people as an option only worthy of trigger happy General Ripper types and clowns. Would it kill them to just once shake up the stereotype a little.
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    Originally Posted by Clertar
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    If, like other commercials, it's a commentary on past events, it might represent Mefisto or Nightmare offering Wanda more magical powers, which would lead to her creating the Hex.
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    Maybe, but the prior commercials all referred to defining moments in her history that we’ve seen and understand. We haven’t seen anyone offering her more powers, so not sure if this refers to anything like that.


    Originally Posted by BRC
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    Also, it bothered me that Darcy, an astrophysicist, just hollywood-hacked her way into the laptop. Yeah yeah, hollywood hacking, I know, and I'd buy it from a superspy or tech genius hacker type, but not every "Smart" character needs to be a superhacker.
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    So much this. It seemed out of place for her to suddenly know how to hack a super-secret government spy agency.

    It would’ve been much more believable, and funny, for someone to comment about how great a hacker Darcy is, and for her to come back with “no, his password is his Yorkie’s birthday” or something like that. Darcy social-engineering an obvious password with snark fits the character much better than Darcy being another super-genius.

    Honestly, it would’ve made more sense for Monica to do the hacking, since she’s been with S.W.O.R.D. for years and probably knows the systems cold.


    Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir
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    The bit at the end there with Wanda expanding the hex, i feel like it all but confirms that this is 100% Wanda's doing without any kind of outside influence.
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    It’s certainly looking more and more like this is the case. But I'm not ruling out some outside influence, even if it's just a subtle nudge to push Wanda over the edge.


    Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir
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    Interesting to see the twins have their own powers though, kind of a shame that they seem to just be copies of Wanda and Pietro. Was hoping they'd have something more unique, separate from the aging-up of course.
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    This raises the question of who and what the twins really are. They seem to be non-reanimated, fully alive individuals—and they seem to be the only individuals Wanda can’t completely control.

    Did she conjure them out of thin air? Kidnap someone else’s kids? Or are they somehow, mystically, actually hers and Vision’s?


    Originally Posted by Dragonus45
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    Would it kill them to just once shake up the stereotype a little.
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    This. It’s almost as bad as General Talbot from Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., who was as cartoonish a flag-spouting goofball as you could never wish for.

    There’s got to be a calm, competent, logical top military leader somewhere in the MCU. I just hope we meet this person one day.

  23. - Top - End - #293
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    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: WandaVision

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
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    This. It’s almost as bad as General Talbot from Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., who was as cartoonish a flag-spouting goofball as you could never wish for.

    There’s got to be a calm, competent, logical top military leader somewhere in the MCU. I just hope we meet this person one day.
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    It's really just Nick Fury and that one guy from the first Captain America movie.

    The problem is that they're trying to frame it as "Haywood hates superpowers, wants to KILL SUPERPOWERED PERSON", which is usually a solid trope, except it's usually applied to a Superpowered Person who is just, kind of existing, and the Evil Millitary Guy is freaking out about a merely potential threat, and wants to act pre-emptively to destroy it.

    Wanda is actively Doing Bad Stuff Right Now. From what we've seen, she appears to be completely aware that she is torturing an entire town in order to live out her fantasy, and appears to be in control. She's not in a trance, she's not acting mindlessly. She seems to be consciously pursuing her Agenda with full knowledge of what that means for the people of Westview.

    So, yeah, unless Haywood has access to some information we don't, he's right to view Wanda as a malicious actor harming innocent civilians in pursuit of a selfish agenda.

    We're supposed to contrast this with the Three Amigos, whose plan is "Talk to Wanda". They've already talked to Wanda (Admittedly, right after they tried to assassinate her), and she isn't interested in talking. If the Three Amigos had a more coherent plan, then maybe Haywood would properly fit the trope they're going for.
    Last edited by BRC; 2021-02-12 at 04:42 PM.
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  24. - Top - End - #294
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    Originally Posted by BRC
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    From what we've seen, she appears to be completely aware that she is torturing an entire town in order to live out her fantasy, and appears to be in control. She's not in a trance, she's not acting mindlessly. She seems to be consciously pursuing her Agenda with full knowledge of what that means for the people of Westview.
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    I'm not sure if she's always completely aware. For the past couple episodes it seems that she has moments where she snaps out of her happy daze and recognizes what's happening; but for the most part she seems to be more or less fully submerged.


    Spoiler: Also...
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    Did anyone notice Pietro's comment about "if I'd found Shangri-La"? He more than anyone seems to be aware this is Wanda's private paradise.

    I agree it's highly unlikely that S.W.O.R.D. sent him in, but I wouldn't be surprised if Something Else is using his shape to try to worm its way into Wanda's psyche.

  25. - Top - End - #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45
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    Uhhhh, not how that works actually but also is beside the point
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    It actually is. ROE for law enforcement requires an immediate threat to justify a shoot.



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    Yes, I am aware he is a clown. That's why I'm annoyed, the show is actively conflating the idea of shooting Wanda to save all those people as an option only worthy of trigger happy General Ripper types and clowns. Would it kill them to just once shake up the stereotype a little.
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    That's because it is.

    If you are observing a threat of completely unknown capabilities that is currently unaware of you you do not take aggressive action which will make that threat aware of you without extremely firm expectation that your aggressive action will completely eliminate the threat first time.

    There is no set of circumstances where this becomes the intelligent response. There are no non-clowns who would do this at all. Non-clown individuals would observe, determine capabilities and required force threshold and ensure it could be met, attempt negotiations, and take aggressive action only when it is necessary to prevent immediate harm and would work.

  26. - Top - End - #296
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    Default Re: WandaVision

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
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    It's really just Nick Fury and that one guy from the first Captain America movie.

    The problem is that they're trying to frame it as "Haywood hates superpowers, wants to KILL SUPERPOWERED PERSON", which is usually a solid trope, except it's usually applied to a Superpowered Person who is just, kind of existing, and the Evil Millitary Guy is freaking out about a merely potential threat, and wants to act pre-emptively to destroy it.

    Wanda is actively Doing Bad Stuff Right Now. From what we've seen, she appears to be completely aware that she is torturing an entire town in order to live out her fantasy, and appears to be in control. She's not in a trance, she's not acting mindlessly. She seems to be consciously pursuing her Agenda with full knowledge of what that means for the people of Westview.

    So, yeah, unless Haywood has access to some information we don't, he's right to view Wanda as a malicious actor harming innocent civilians in pursuit of a selfish agenda.

    We're supposed to contrast this with the Three Amigos, whose plan is "Talk to Wanda". They've already talked to Wanda (Admittedly, right after they tried to assassinate her), and she isn't interested in talking. If the Three Amigos had a more coherent plan, then maybe Haywood would properly fit the trope they're going for.
    That is my point

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    I said this earlier and I say it again. It is a choice to make Hayward act the way he is acting. He is a narrative mirror.

    Segue to demonstrate a point. Some writers have Harley Quinn go back with the abusive Joker as his girlfriend / henchman, after earlier stories have them breaking up and Harley says she is dones for good. Some fans are fine with this for they say "realism" where some women do get back together with their abusive boyfriends, and it is a tragic cycle. But also it is realistic for some women do not get back together with their abusive exes where they find community and find a better life away from toxic creeps.

    Asking what is realistic is the wrong question.

    There is always writers in stories, ALWAYS, so the choices of how to present Hayward is a choice an artist is making, an aesthetic preference, a narrative preference where the dozen plus tensions will be in 6 hours, etc. Of course I can create a different character who is in the military and is not just technically good at military stuff but is also good at the beauracracy and politics stuff to rise to the head of an agency. I can make a dozen different Haywards with different motivations and different personalities of how they process information and the hazards that are Wanda kidnapping the town.

    It was a choice to make Hayward a self-absorbed narcissist who wants to be the only person in control, who punishes dissent, and uses motivated reasoning where the only way to end a conflict is bodies in the ground, and putting them there is the less "scary" option for the Director for they feel out of control and by creating control via death they feel less stressed. It is a narrative choice, there is a certain type of man (and sometimes woman) who operates like that. They are control freaks, and they violate boundaries of others when they do not feel in control. The narrative story of Hayward is not is he making the right or wrong call, the story is he is full of pathos, he is an emotional being right now, a stressed out person, who feels the need to control the situation.

    And thus he precisely mirrors Wanda in a way. She is dealing with Grief, Hayward is dealing with Fear, and both of them are acting emotional, and this is a narrative choice done by the writers.

    -----

    In Sum the story would be different if this was DC's Amanda Waller instead of Acting Director Hayward. Some of the choices would be the same between Waller and Hayward, but how the viewer would "FEEL" would be dramatically different. The Phenomenology would be different, how we process the experience internal and external would not be the same.
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  27. - Top - End - #297
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    Default Re: WandaVision

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
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    So much this. It seemed out of place for her to suddenly know how to hack a super-secret government spy agency.

    It would’ve been much more believable, and funny, for someone to comment about how great a hacker Darcy is, and for her to come back with “no, his password is his Yorkie’s birthday” or something like that. Darcy social-engineering an obvious password with snark fits the character much better than Darcy being another super-genius.

    Honestly, it would’ve made more sense for Monica to do the hacking, since she’s been with S.W.O.R.D. for years and probably knows the systems cold.
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    But Monica has been out of the loop for five of those years, courtesy of Thanos.

    That said I would absolutely have Darcy subvert the super-hacking. Obvious passwords (and similar things like writing them down on a post-it) are exactly the kind of things an organization like SWORD would warn their people against soon after they joined, lots of people would do anyway, and it would neatly fit the characterization of ‘But I don’t need to follow the rules and regulations, because I am in charge!


    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
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    It’s certainly looking more and more like this is the case. But I'm not ruling out some outside influence, even if it's just a subtle nudge to push Wanda over the edge.
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    Going to second ‘subtle nudge.’


    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
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    This raises the question of who and what the twins really are. They seem to be non-reanimated, fully alive individuals—and they seem to be the only individuals Wanda can’t completely control.

    Did she conjure them out of thin air? Kidnap someone else’s kids? Or are they somehow, mystically, actually hers and Vision’s?
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    I suspect they’re going to survive the series and show up elsewhere regardless.


    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
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    It's really just Nick Fury and that one guy from the first Captain America movie.

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    Colonel Chester Phillips. (I had to look it up.)

    ...maybe Everett Ross? How high up in the Air Force was Mar-Vell?

    Still a short list, even counting the people who are dead.


    And one thing I haven’t seen brought up yet...

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    If Wanda didn’t have the power to completely control everyone in town all at once in the first place (thus leaving some of them frozen/stuck in a loop) how much worse is that going to get now that she has to cover more area?
    Last edited by Kareeah_Indaga; 2021-02-12 at 05:26 PM.

  28. - Top - End - #298
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: WandaVision

    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
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    But Monica has been out of the loop for five of those years, courtesy of Thanos.

    That said I would absolutely have Darcy subvert the super-hacking. Obvious passwords (and similar things like writing them down on a post-it) are exactly the kind of things an organization like SWORD would warn their people against soon after they joined, lots of people would do anyway, and it would neatly fit the characterization of ‘But I don’t need to follow the rules and regulations, because I am in charge!
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    Go full realistic. Infosec make people set super long passwords with complex requirements for capitals and special characters and everyone writes them down because they're too hard to remember.

  29. - Top - End - #299
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    Default Re: WandaVision

    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
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    If Wanda didn’t have the power to completely control everyone in town all at once in the first place (thus leaving some of them frozen/stuck in a loop) how much worse is that going to get now that she has to cover more area?
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    Depends how quickly her power is growing. As Pietro said, she couldn't do the things she's doing in Age of Ultron. Then it was just a bit of telekinesis and making people have visions. By Endgame she was single-handedly able to wreck Thanos and force him to call for support. And even that pales in comparison to her current feats.

    She reminds me of Lyta Alexander from Babylon 5. Starts out at a normal super level, then the changes made to her cause her to become an unparalleled super-weapon. A super-weapon with a massive amount of emotional trauma.


    Spoiler: On Pietro
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    I don't think he is digging for information with malicious intent. I don't think he's working for anybody either.

    He is Pietro, and like Vision he isn't being fully controlled by Wanda. He wants Wanda to be happy and is less judgmental about it than Vision. However, on some level he is aware that this is a deeply disturbing situation and this comes out in their conversations.


    Spoiler: On comic book references
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    I think they're just that - references and easter eggs for the fans. The existence of the twins doesn't imply Mephisto, and the other references don't imply the existence of another comic-only character. We've seen them do this before with the Mandarin - they toss in references to comic characters and storylines explicitly to throw off the mega fans. They aren't going to introduce an outside villain without thoroughly foreshadowing him first, and the show has been very clear that Wanda is working alone.

  30. - Top - End - #300
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    Draconi Redfir's Avatar

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    Default Re: WandaVision

    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
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    If Wanda didn’t have the power to completely control everyone in town all at once in the first place (thus leaving some of them frozen/stuck in a loop) how much worse is that going to get now that she has to cover more area?
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    i suspect it's not that she didn't have the power for it, but probably more that she / the hex saw them as little more then background characters and so didn't bother giving them any more then the bare minimum. they probably would have started moving properly if Wanda and the kids got closer to them. It's like when you play a video game, when beyond a certain distance, most NPC's freeze or pop out of existence entirely just to save processing power, even if the computer is completely capable of handling it.


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    okay i could maybe see someone / something giving Wanda a light nudge, though I'm really doubting it's going to be Mephisto or anything like that. Generally I'm more inclined to believe it's a character we've already been introduced too in some way over someone who hasn't even been hinted at. Still think it's most likely that she did it herself though.
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