WandaVision

[Ramza00]

This is referenced in Age of Ultron, starting at 41:45, when they’re discussing Klaue:

Stark: “If this guy got out of Wakanda with some of their trade goods….”
Cap: “I thought your father said he got the last of it.”
Banner: “I don’t follow. What comes out of Wakanda?”
Stark: “The strongest metal on Earth.”

—And we end the scene with a closeup of Cap’s shield. The strong implication is that the vibranium which formed the shield came from Wakanda, and at the time it was assumed that was all there was.

It is a comic book movie, but this is irritating to me

That is not how things work, and if it worked like that, Tony would be using different language than “trade goods.”

The museum director said it was 7th century from Benin, but the implication was that it was older. It makes sense that vibranium items could have found their way all across Africa in previous centuries, either stolen or given as trade goods or diplomatic gifts. Wakanda may be isolationist now, but there may have been occasional periods of openness long ago.

Recently, on our earth there was some radiocarbon dating of some artifacts off the coast of Alaska. Glass beads and then the organic bracelet material for said beads that turns it into jewelry.

Well the bracelet material radio carbon dating says it is 1440 to 1480, and the specifics of the glass beads means it comes from north eastern Italy, specifically the glass blowers of Italy which kept many of their techniques as trade secrets. Edit forgot to mention Venice, at this time of the world almost all the fancy glass and glass bead tech was a trade secret of Venice. This will not be true in a few hundred years but we are talking 1200s to early 1400s.

Thus this part of Alaska had trade with Northern Asia (most likely Russia) prior to Christopher Columbus. Likewise getting the glass beads from Italy to Northern Asia likely occurred over land trade routes.

The point of these last 4 paragraphs is humans do lots of trade.

[Tyndmyr]

This is referenced in Age of Ultron, starting at 41:45, when they’re discussing Klaue:

Stark: “If this guy got out of Wakanda with some of their trade goods….”
Cap: “I thought your father said he got the last of it.”
Banner: “I don’t follow. What comes out of Wakanda?”
Stark: “The strongest metal on Earth.”

—And we end the scene with a closeup of Cap’s shield. The strong implication is that the vibranium which formed the shield came from Wakanda, and at the time it was assumed that was all there was.

So maybe Howard Stark went to Wakanda at some point? I could buy that.

I do agree that Wakanda and their policies on trade/isolationism don't entirely make sense. Wealthy societies and external trade go together *extremely* strongly. The most isolationist country at present is probably North Korea. It doesn't make a lot of sense for Wakanda to follow that model.

[Psyren]

This is referenced in Age of Ultron, starting at 41:45, when they’re discussing Klaue:

Stark: “If this guy got out of Wakanda with some of their trade goods….”
Cap: “I thought your father said he got the last of it.”
Banner: “I don’t follow. What comes out of Wakanda?”
Stark: “The strongest metal on Earth.”

—And we end the scene with a closeup of Cap’s shield. The strong implication is that the vibranium which formed the shield came from Wakanda, and at the time it was assumed that was all there was.

Gotcha, that makes sense. But, we also don't know how the military acquired it for Cap's shield - it could have been a lawful transaction, in which case it does stand to reason that Wakanda wouldn't be interested in reclaiming it even if Cap HAD been snapped.

So maybe Howard Stark went to Wakanda at some point? I could buy that.

More likely that the govt got their hands on it at some point and gave it to him when he signed on for science stuff.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Ramza00
That is not how things work, and if it worked like that, Tony would be using different language than “trade goods.”

This being Tony, he was probably using “trade goods” to mean the exact opposite, i.e. something Wakanda doesn’t want to trade.

Originally Posted by Ramza00
Thus this part of Alaska had trade with Northern Asia (most likely Russia) prior to Christopher Columbus. Likewise getting the glass beads from Italy to Northern Asia likely occurred over land trade routes.

Very interesting indeed. No doubt the Venetians had only a vague idea of the beads’ reaching China, and no idea whatsoever of the Bering Strait or mainland Alaska beyond.

But yes, things get around. Coins left by Francis Drake in southern California eventually found their way to the area near Vancouver; and on the other side of the continent, Inuit hunters occasionally washed up on the shores of Britain during the Middle Ages, with the British having no idea where these strange people in sealskin boats could have possibly come from.

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
So maybe Howard Stark went to Wakanda at some point? I could buy that.

In the first Captain America movie, it’s not clear where the vibranium came from, and Wakanda is never mentioned by name. It’s entirely possible that Stark himself didn’t know where the vibranium was sourced; it might have been some black ops job prior to the war where the records were sealed, and the vibranium itself was moved around until it found its way to Stark.

Or, there could have been an effort at some point to collect vibranium artifacts from all around Africa. It might have taken a while to work out that each of them traced back to the same small, nondescript region of east-central Africa—but in the meantime, they were all melted down and worked into Cap’s shield. This isn’t the likeliest scenario, but it does make sense that there would be other vibranium artifacts scattered around the continent, or even around the world.

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
I do agree that Wakanda and their policies on trade/isolationism don't entirely make sense. Wealthy societies and external trade go together *extremely* strongly.

My sense is that Wakanda’s isolationism is a response to the modern world, with its trade and population pressures, as well as satellite technology that makes it more difficult to avoid global notice. Wakanda puts on the front of an impoverished, backwards African country in order to hide in plain sight.

But a thousand years ago that wouldn’t have been necessary, so Wakanda was probably more open then. Hopefully we’ll get the full story on this with the Disney+ series.

[Draconi Redfir]

i mean, Wakanda got all their Vibranium via meteor right? Meteors don't just land in one big chunk though, fragments are bound to come off and spread out.

Maybe all the Vibranium Stark used in the Captain's shield was collected from much smaller deposits outside of Wakanda over many years. A fragment in Russia here, a fist-sized rock in the ocean there, a couple of shards in the middle east, etc.

[Tyrant]

i mean, Wakanda got all their Vibranium via meteor right? Meteors don't just land in one big chunk though, fragments are bound to come off and spread out.

Maybe all the Vibranium Stark used in the Captain's shield was collected from much smaller deposits outside of Wakanda over many years. A fragment in Russia here, a fist-sized rock in the ocean there, a couple of shards in the middle east, etc.

Just make sure it isn't the kind from Antarctica.

[Draconi Redfir]

I'm afraid i don't get that reference.

[Gallowglass]

I'm afraid i don't get that reference.

In the comics, Antarctic Vibranium from the savage land is "the anti metal" and destroys any regular metal it comes in contact with. Very different than Wakandan Vibranium.

[Ramza00]

I'm afraid i don't get that reference.

You need to read more about Magneto’s other Daughter Zala Dane

May not be Magneto’s other daughter, but she is sister to Lorna Dane which is Magneto’s daughter. Zala Dane the sorceress with Dinosaur Magic of The Savage Land.

[Cikomyr2]

In the comics, Antarctic Vibranium from the savage land is "the anti metal" and destroys any regular metal it comes in contact with. Very different than Wakandan Vibranium.

Is it because it's an entirely different Vibranium, or thousands of years exposed to the southern magnetic pole corrupted it?

[Gallowglass]

Is it because it's an entirely different Vibranium, or thousands of years exposed to the southern magnetic pole corrupted it?

As far as I know there's no definitive story explaining its origin or why it's different (in universe). I'm sure there has been if someone digs deep enough

[agustin1987]

I was the big fan of marvel since beginning And waited for every marvel movies and shows. Thanks god that two season are released. Due to covid-19 many marvel movies postponed and this makes me anger. I watched the two episodes and as like other marvel movies this was quite entertaining too. Hope its next seasons released soon. My question is, does vision died in final episode.

I am eagerly waiting for The Falcon and the Winter Soldier too . I am missing our old heroes, iron man, captain America, Yes but new heroes are also not less fantastic and powerful.

[Millstone85]

I watched all nine episodes this week. It was great!

[Palanan]

So, that went partly as expected…and partly not.

Spoiler: Power Games

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I confess I was a little puzzled about the back-and-forth powereyness between Wanda and Agatha. When Agatha talks about taking power from the undeserving, is this an aspect of her character from the comics?

Presumably her entire plan was to somehow absorb Wanda’s power and conquer the world, yadda yadda…but Wanda defeated her by…carving runes into the Hex? They weren’t there originally, since Wanda evidently learned this from Agatha—but if a spell can’t be changed once cast, how did Wanda add the runes?

And if Wanda isn’t casting spells, as she claimed, then why were the runes effective?

Spoiler: Name-Dropping

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Those who brought up the Darkhold should be pleased, although it’s also a little concerning, since Wanda is evidently reading it in astral form in the second post-credits scene. Which is not good for anyone, really.

But it does seem like an easy bridge to Dr. Strange, who was also mentioned, at least by job title. In retrospect it’s a little surprising that the character of Dr. Strange didn’t show up, although as I mentioned earlier, not a surprise that the actor wouldn’t make a cameo.

Spoiler: Kids

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I’m still not clear who or what the kids really were. Unlike with Westview Vision, we didn’t get a clear explanation from Wanda of what they were, and she had an odd final line to them, thanking them for choosing her. That suggests some degree of independent existence on their part—but if so, as what?

Spoiler: Where's Waldo?

Show

So, what happened to the reconstituted Vision? He and Westview Vision were having a rational discourse, and after the memory restoration he had the epiphany that he was the true Vision.

And then he just…flew up and away, and apparently out of the story. All we see after that is Westview Vision, who has a touching goodbye and then dissolves into golden sparkles.

But where is the real Vision? I was expecting a post-credits scene showing where he was headed, but he sort of fell off the storyline.

Spoiler: Speaking of Post-Credits Scenes

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And, Monica is taking her first steps into a wider world. The nod to Nick Fury is an evident lead-in to the Secret Invasion series, which is still very early in production.

Presumably Monica will be part of that. I don't know the Secret Invasion storyline from the comics, so no idea how she'll figure into it all.

[Dragonus45]

So, that went partly as expected…and partly not.

Spoiler: Power Games

Show

I confess I was a little puzzled about the back-and-forth powereyness between Wanda and Agatha. When Agatha talks about taking power from the undeserving, is this an aspect of her character from the comics?

Presumably her entire plan was to somehow absorb Wanda’s power and conquer the world, yadda yadda…but Wanda defeated her by…carving runes into the Hex? They weren’t there originally, since Wanda evidently learned this from Agatha—but if a spell can’t be changed once cast, how did Wanda add the runes?

And if Wanda isn’t casting spells, as she claimed, then why were the runes effective?

Spoiler

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So I don't think Wanda was "modifying" the spell so much as drawing the Runes with her "missed" shots at Agatha during their battle onto the walls of the hex, and her denial about her powers being magical in nature and how she wasn't casting spells was just that. Denial. It little to do with how her powers were absolutely magical in nature, because she is a witch, and magic in the MCU is real.

[BRC]

So, here's my beef

Spoiler

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We're given the take that Wanda isn't evil because she didn't mean to hurt the people of Westview. She thought/intended for them to be "at peace" while she used their town to escape from her grief.

But, like, even if her spell worked exactly as she intended, with everybody in some sort of peaceful trance-state instead of trapped in a nightmare under psychic assault, she's still meat-puppetting an entire town's worth of people against their will.

Like, there's no world where Wanda is both in control, and comes out of this as an innocent, which is pretty counter to how the show wants us to sympathize with the poor, grief stricken woman.

Which, yes, I can sympathize with her, but she is still Willfully Doing The Bad Thing.

[Clertar]

So, here's my beef

Spoiler

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We're given the take that Wanda isn't evil

Are we? She might yet show up as an antagonist in future MCU installments.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Clertar
She might yet show up as an antagonist in future MCU installments.

Especially given that...

Spoiler

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...the last we see of her, she's reading the Darkhold, which never ends well for anyone.

[Ramza00]

Lots of thoughts and instead of expressing them lets collapse it to a single thought.

Spoiler: WandaVISION teaches us

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That we can collapse the MCU formula from the movies to a tv show, and that formula is a fun but also disappointing Act 3 structure with the 3rd Act being the weakest...

and it informs us that the MCU can change for that 3rd act was only a single episode out of 9 with this tv show.

[Draconi Redfir]

Spoiler: Episode 9

Show

And no sign of any overly contrived forced-insert pointless "villains" like Mephisto. Booyeah.

So, here's my beef

Spoiler

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Like, there's no world where Wanda is both in control, and comes out of this as an innocent, which is pretty counter to how the show wants us to sympathize with the poor, grief stricken woman.

Which, yes, I can sympathize with her, but she is still Willfully Doing The Bad Thing.

Spoiler

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this is what people like to call a "Character flaw". it's often used to set up a "Conflict".

[Clertar]

Spoiler: Episode 9

Show

And no sign of any overly contrived forced-insert pointless "villains" like Mephisto. Booyeah.

Spoiler

Show

[Psyren]

Spoiler: Episode 9

Show

And no sign of any overly contrived forced-insert pointless "villains" like Mephisto. Booyeah.

Oh look at that, all the doomsaying was for nothing

Spoiler

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this is what people like to call a "Character flaw". it's often used to set up a "Conflict".

For once we completely agree; bravo.

Spoiler: Power Games

Show

I confess I was a little puzzled about the back-and-forth powereyness between Wanda and Agatha. When Agatha talks about taking power from the undeserving, is this an aspect of her character from the comics?

Presumably her entire plan was to somehow absorb Wanda’s power and conquer the world, yadda yadda…but Wanda defeated her by…carving runes into the Hex? They weren’t there originally, since Wanda evidently learned this from Agatha—but if a spell can’t be changed once cast, how did Wanda add the runes?

And if Wanda isn’t casting spells, as she claimed, then why were the runes effective?

Two easy possibilities:

Spoiler

Show

1) Casting a new spell on top of an existing spell isn't the same as "changing a spell once cast."
2) A feat being impossible for Agatha to perform doesn't make it impossible for The Scarlet Witch.

Spoiler: Name-Dropping

Show

Those who brought up the Darkhold should be pleased, although it’s also a little concerning, since Wanda is evidently reading it in astral form in the second post-credits scene. Which is not good for anyone, really.

But it does seem like an easy bridge to Dr. Strange, who was also mentioned, at least by job title. In retrospect it’s a little surprising that the character of Dr. Strange didn’t show up, although as I mentioned earlier, not a surprise that the actor wouldn’t make a cameo.

Yeah I was hoping for that too.

Spoiler: Kids

Show

I’m still not clear who or what the kids really were. Unlike with Westview Vision, we didn’t get a clear explanation from Wanda of what they were, and she had an odd final line to them, thanking them for choosing her. That suggests some degree of independent existence on their part—but if so, as what?

Spoiler

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Souls, I imagine. Either they are normal and came from Wherever Babies Come From, or... something else that was attracted to the massive palimpsest (ooh, always wanted to use that word!) of layered spells that Wanda crammed into the area of the Hex.

Spoiler: Where's Waldo?

Show

So, what happened to the reconstituted Vision? He and Westview Vision were having a rational discourse, and after the memory restoration he had the epiphany that he was the true Vision.

And then he just…flew up and away, and apparently out of the story. All we see after that is Westview Vision, who has a touching goodbye and then dissolves into golden sparkles.

But where is the real Vision? I was expecting a post-credits scene showing where he was headed, but he sort of fell off the storyline.

Spoiler

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In the timeless words of Arnie, he'll be back.

More pragmatically, writing him out of the story - at least temporarily - was necessary so that she would dive headling into her Darkhold studies without heed for the dangers. This is definitely going to get worse before it gets better.

Spoiler: Speaking of Post-Credits Scenes

Show

And, Monica is taking her first steps into a wider world. The nod to Nick Fury is an evident lead-in to the Secret Invasion series, which is still very early in production.

Presumably Monica will be part of that. I don't know the Secret Invasion storyline from the comics, so no idea how she'll figure into it all.

Not sure if it's that story specifically, but regardless, can't wait for more!

[BRC]

Spoiler: Episode 9

Show

And no sign of any overly contrived forced-insert pointless "villains" like Mephisto. Booyeah.

Spoiler

Show

this is what people like to call a "Character flaw". it's often used to set up a "Conflict".

Spoiler

Show

I suppose my Beef is with visual/storytelling language, which is informed by preconcieved notions, relies heavily on interpretation of subtext, and is, in the end, completely subjective.


This episode fills the traditional "MCU Act 3 Action Setpiece" role, in which our Hero triumphs over their antagonists and, if necessary, demonstrates their growth from who they were before.
Wanda defeats the evil Haywood and Agnes, and lets the people of Westview go, before finally collapsing the Hex and sacrificing her happy fantasy, since it came at too high a cost.

I suppose, while this formula has been used for plenty of flawed heroes, I don't think we've ever seen it used for something like this. Sure, Agatha and Haywood are baddies, but Wanda is guilty of considerable crimes, not just being a bit of a jerk like Tony Stark or Star Lord. This formula ends with the Hero Triumphant Over Evil.

It's applying this formula, which works very well for the traditional superhero vs villain tale, to this particular story that is bothering me. Wanda fills the role of the Hero in the by-the-numbers act 3, but she's not the hero of this particular story, she's just standing in the spot normally occupied by the Hero. Normally, the Formula ends with us celebrating the Hero's triumph, skill, and moral righteousness over the defeated villain.

Here, it's kind of hard to do that? Wanda was okay with enchanting the entire town and stealing their will, just so long as they were not aware of it apparently.

They don't explicitly ask us to hail Wanda as a Hero, it's all subjective interpretations of subtext and preconceived notions. But I saw a pretty by-the-book Marvel Act 3, and at the end, where I have been asked to celebrate the Hero so many times it's basically a pavlovian reaction at this point, and the person serving the visual role of that "hero" is Wanda, who, at the end, just kind of undoes the harm she at least somewhat willfully caused.

And it feels like we're being asked to celebrate Wanda here, despite not really being asked to do so, which is the disconnect.

But maybe that says more about me than this particular story.

[Psyren]

Spoiler

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Here, it's kind of hard to do that? Wanda was okay with enchanting the entire town and stealing their will, just so long as they were not aware of it apparently.

Spoiler

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Except she didn't know what she was doing. They spell this out pretty bluntly in the show - "the difference between you and me, is that you did this on purpose." As soon as she fully understood the extent of what the Hex was doing, she started undoing it, until she realized that doing so would (a) result in the deaths of her children, and before she could even begin to find a way around that, would (b) result in her power being slurped up by the far, far less moral Agnes, for as yet hidden ends.

So yes, in the end she took Monica's advice, and did not let herself be painted as the villain.

[BRC]

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Except she didn't know what she was doing. They spell this out pretty bluntly in the show - "the difference between you and me, is that you did this on purpose." As soon as she fully understood the extent of what the Hex was doing, she started undoing it, until she realized that doing so would (a) result in the deaths of her children, and before she could even begin to find a way around that, would (b) result in her power being slurped up by the far, far less moral Agnes, for as yet hidden ends.

So yes, in the end she took Monica's advice, and did not let herself be painted as the villain.

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She didn't know EXACTLY what it was doing.

She thought all the people of Westview would be "At peace", rather than trapped in a nightmare.

But, it's established that she knew that this was a real town with real people in it, and that they were acting out artificial sitcom scenarios.

When Haywood attacked her, she stormed out of the Hex. When Vision questioned things, she tried to shut down the questioning.

My point is that even if the Hex worked exactly as she thought it did, with all the people magically entranced to be at peace, what she was doing was STILL morally unacceptable. It was worse than she knew, but what she knew was still pretty bad.

[Psyren]

Spoiler

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She didn't know EXACTLY what it was doing.

She thought all the people of Westview would be "At peace", rather than trapped in a nightmare.

But, it's established that she knew that this was a real town with real people in it, and that they were acting out artificial sitcom scenarios.

When Haywood attacked her, she stormed out of the Hex. When Vision questioned things, she tried to shut down the questioning.

My point is that even if the Hex worked exactly as she thought it did, with all the people magically entranced to be at peace, what she was doing was STILL morally unacceptable. It was worse than she knew, but what she knew was still pretty bad.

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It took Agnes' memory lane spell to even allow her to recall how it began, much less stop her subconscious from "editing the footage" and reaffirming the status quo every time she came close to learning. She didn't truly know enough to end it until this episode.

As for the "storming out of the Hex" scene, I'm not convinced that wasn't Agnes, but even if it was truly Wanda, the above still applies.

[Draconi Redfir]

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Pretty much! And none of them were! :P

[Ramza00]

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She didn't know EXACTLY what it was doing.

She thought all the people of Westview would be "At peace", rather than trapped in a nightmare.

But, it's established that she knew that this was a real town with real people in it, and that they were acting out artificial sitcom scenarios.

When Haywood attacked her, she stormed out of the Hex. When Vision questioned things, she tried to shut down the questioning.

My point is that even if the Hex worked exactly as she thought it did, with all the people magically entranced to be at peace, what she was doing was STILL morally unacceptable. It was worse than she knew, but what she knew was still pretty bad.

How much did Wanda Know?

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Wanda of Episode 1 with the **** Van Dyke Calendar and choking scene knows nothing. Wanda of Episode 8 flashbacks knows nothing.

Wanda of Episode 3 with the twins being born starts noticing the contradictions and is “waking from the Dream” and thus is Lucid Dreaming, not fully awake but still believes they are in the Dream.

Wanda of Episodes 5, 6, and 7 is struggling with the Lucid Dreaming concept. She was to be less awake and just enjoy the ride. Likewise Vision who is a mirror of Wanda and the fragments of the mind stone (both Wanda and also not Wanda) is pushing against the Dream with episodes 5, 6, and 7 and the ending scene with Episode 3. While Wanda wants to go back to sleep Vision wants to wake up.

Thus Wanda has limited culpability with her consciousness mind but it grows and grows. And we see lots of motivated reasoning from Wanda when she pushes out Monica / Geraldine through 4 layers of reality, breaking the 4th wall.

Wanda was watching her dreams like a director not realizing it was real, thus the tv broadcasts. Including Wanda’s subconscious in Episode 2 rewinding the beekeeper / SWORD agent.

—————

Some fans were complaining that Disney released episode 1 and 2 together but not episode 1, 2, and 3 like they did to reviewers to give the reviewers time to write articles that came out the minute episode 1 and 2 dropped. This was on purpose I suspect. We as a viewer will feel Wanda is more culpable if we binged 1 plus 2 and 3 together instead of just 1 and 2.

[Eldan]

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I'm absolutely down on the side that what Wanda did was horrible. Even if she didn't plan it. Even if it had gone as planned. She's still mind controlling hundreds of people. Even if it wasn't as horrible as it turned out to be, it would have been bad.

Also, I 100% expected the two Visions to merge into one. One body, one mind. After red vision touched white vision's crystal, I was sure it was gonna happen. Then it didn't. Weird.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Eldan

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Also, I 100% expected the two Visions to merge into one. One body, one mind.

Spoiler: YES!

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I was positive that would be the next step. They fight, they talk, they fuse into one being.

It does seem a little strange that they didn’t. In terms of character arcs, it means that Wanda gets to say goodbye to the version of Vision that she created, but it also means we have this peculiar half-Vision who’s now floating around somewhere. That's a loose end they didn't really acknowledge.