Bladesinger vs. Eldritch Knight: what's in a Gish?

[RSP]

I continue to disagree with your reading of the RAW, which is why I am not saying "you're right, but RAI" or something like that. I just also don't think arguing the RAW is fruitful, and having both (or all) interpretations of it available for DMs to examine the reasoning behind is useful to DMs who want help making a ruling. But I think we've both articulated our positions as clearly as possible and aren't likely to persuade with more discussion in the issue.

The reason I keep asking is I don’t actually know what you’re basing your “interpretation” on. I’ve stated it a few times, because I literally cannot see any way that “the features don't add together” can be read to allow adding the features together. If I missed it, I apologize, but I don’t think I’ve actually seen any argument showing how “the features don't add together” is able to be interpreted as “you can add the features together.”

I understand someone saying RAI is different (though I don’t think there’s enough evidence for that conclusion: using the following sentence stating the extra attacks don’t add together isn’t good evidence as they were 6 years or so away from any other features in Extra Attack, so assuming they intended the BS EA to work with other EA features based on that isn’t logical: there were no other features. Also, if they wanted the BS ability to work with other EA abilities, they very easily could have made it its own feature when they rewrote the BS in Tashas, which would have separated it from the EA multiclass rule. Again, it’s possible the developers do intend to have the cantrip swap apply to other EA abilities, but we don’t have any evidence to know that at this point, from the RAW [unless there’s some tweet by Crawford or something else I’m not aware of].), but, RAW, it’s very clear.

[Segev]

The reason I keep asking is I don’t actually know what you’re basing your “interpretation” on. I’ve stated it a few times, because I literally cannot see any way that “the features don't add together” can be read to allow adding the features together. If I missed it, I apologize, but I don’t think I’ve actually seen any argument showing how “the features don't add together” is able to be interpreted as “you can add the features together.”

I understand someone saying RAI is different (though I don’t think there’s enough evidence for that conclusion: using the following sentence stating the extra attacks don’t add together isn’t good evidence as they were 6 years or so away from any other features in Extra Attack, so assuming they intended the BS EA to work with other EA features based on that isn’t logical: there were no other features. Also, if they wanted the BS ability to work with other EA abilities, they very easily could have made it its own feature when they rewrote the BS in Tashas, which would have separated it from the EA multiclass rule. Again, it’s possible the developers do intend to have the cantrip swap apply to other EA abilities, but we don’t have any evidence to know that at this point, from the RAW [unless there’s some tweet by Crawford or something else I’m not aware of].), but, RAW, it’s very clear.

I'll attempt one more time, but if I can't get where I'm coming from across, I apologize. I don't expect you to agree with me, but I appreciate and sympathize with a desire to see where others are coming from.

"Doesn't stack," to me, means you can't take "Your AC is equal to Wis + Dex + 10" and "You're AC is equal to Con + Dex + 10" and say "So, that means my AC is 10 + Dex + Con + Wis." That's what you'd be doing for "adding together." The text forbidding the stacking of those via multiclassing strikes me as a "for clarity" thing, because the rules themselves are written in such a way that addition is impossible. Even if there wasn't the Unarmored Defense-specific clause that said you only get the first one you get, all having both the Monk and Barbarian versions of them would mean is that you have three choices while wearing no armor: 10 + Dex, 10 + Dex + Con, or 10 + Dex + Wis. Pick one to calculate your AC with.

Similarly, Extra Attack is worded such that it triggers off of taking the attack action. It specifies you can make two, rather than one, attack. It doesn't stack, so "you can make two" doesn't become "you can make three" just by having two instances of it.

However, if you have a Barbarian 5 / Fighter 11, you aren't choosing to use the Fighter's Extra Attack (2) and leaving behind the Barbarian's Extra Attack; you're technically using both. They don't STACK, but they do OVERLAP. Both trigger when you make an attack. You do, in fact, make two attacks instead of one. And then you make three attacks. Not "three more attacks," but three, total.

Bladesinger 6 / Fighter 11 triggers, "You make two attacks instead of one...[and] you can substitute one of those attacks for a cantrip," AND it triggers, "You make three attacks when you take the attack action." They do not stack, so you don't get 4 or 5 attacks (however you choose to try to read "stacking" into them), but they do overlap. When you take the attack action, you can make two attacks instead of one, and replace one with a cantrip. You can also make three attacks. That one of the first two attacks was replaced with a cantrip doesn't change that you can make three, total. (I could further see this read as allowing three ATTACKS, so replacing one of the first two with a cantrip means you didn't make two, yet, but that's definitely twisting the wording in a way that doesn't match what I believe to be the intent. Admittedly, a level 17 Fighter/Bladesinger getting three attacks and a cantrip is probably not broken, but still, I think that is clearly twisting the wording, whereas straightforwardly reading Extra Attack (2) as granting three attacks and BS Extra Attack permitting one of the attacks to be replaced by a cantrip is not.)

[Unoriginal]

Bladesinger 6 / Fighter 11 triggers, "You make two attacks instead of one...[and] you can substitute one of those attacks for a cantrip," AND it triggers, "You make three attacks when you take the attack action." They do not stack, so you don't get 4 or 5 attacks (however you choose to try to read "stacking" into them), but they do overlap. When you take the attack action, you can make two attacks instead of one, and replace one with a cantrip. You can also make three attacks. That one of the first two attacks was replaced with a cantrip doesn't change that you can make three, total.

My reading of this is that you can *either* use the "when you use the Attack action, you can make two attacks and replace one with a cantrip if you want" ability of the Bladesinger or the "when you use the Attack action, you make three attacks" ability of the Fighter.

In other words, both of those features are modifications you *can* apply to the Attack action, but they cannot be both used on the same Attack action.

[Xetheral]

Why are you deliberately choosing an objectively worse damage vector for BS in TWF?

A non-EK Bladesinger has no way to get a reliable bonus action attack that is eligible for GWM. The best bonus action attacks available to non-EK Bladesingers are TWF and PAM. Dual Wielder+TWF style gives d8+DEX damage on all three attacks. PAM+Dueling gives 1d6+STR+2 for two attacks, and 1d4+STR+2 for the third attack. Unless you're running a high-strength non-EK Bladesinger (and why would you?), the ability to use DEX makes TWF the optimal option for resourceless DPR for the BM6/BS7 build.

[RSP]

"Doesn't stack," to me, means you can't take "Your AC is equal to Wis + Dex + 10" and "You're AC is equal to Con + Dex + 10" and say "So, that means my AC is 10 + Dex + Con + Wis." That's what you'd be doing for "adding together." The text forbidding the stacking of those via multiclassing strikes me as a "for clarity" thing, because the rules themselves are written in such a way that addition is impossible. Even if there wasn't the Unarmored Defense-specific clause that said you only get the first one you get, all having both the Monk and Barbarian versions of them would mean is that you have three choices while wearing no armor: 10 + Dex, 10 + Dex + Con, or 10 + Dex + Wis. Pick one to calculate your AC with.

Similarly, Extra Attack is worded such that it triggers off of taking the attack action. It specifies you can make two, rather than one, attack. It doesn't stack, so "you can make two" doesn't become "you can make three" just by having two instances of it...

Bladesinger 6 / Fighter 11 triggers, "You make two attacks instead of one...[and] you can substitute one of those attacks for a cantrip," AND it triggers, "You make three attacks when you take the attack action." They do not stack, so you don't get 4 or 5 attacks (however you choose to try to read "stacking" into them), but they do overlap. When you take the attack action, you can make two attacks instead of one, and replace one with a cantrip. You can also make three attacks.

To eliminate confusion, nothing in the Multiclass rules says anything about “stacking” or “doesn’t stack” or whatnot. Part of what I’m confused about is why you refer to stacking at all in these rules.

Now, the BS EA specifically states the it’s the attacks provided by the Bladesinger EA that can be traded out: “Starting at 6th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.” “Those attacks” are the two that are provided from the BS EA. Note: your idea of “I’m using both EA options overlapping” doesn’t work, in part because if you’re choosing to use the (2) extra attacks from Fighter 11, then you are definitely not using the attacks provided by the BS EA feature. As you would now not be using “those attacks” - that is, the BS attacks - you have no means to swap out an attack, as the feature states it specifically applies to the attacks provided by BS EA. It’s not that the BS feature lets you swap out one of any attacks for a cantrip, but specifically states it allows one of the two provided from the BS EA ability.

Further, even if you accept both abilities triggering off of the Attack Action and running concurrently every time the Attack Action is used, you’d still have to choose the Fighter ability to be the one that takes effect. Now once the Fighter EA takes effect, you can’t choose to add the BS EA feature of the cantrip swap, because that would be adding two instances of EA together, which is expressly against the Multiclass rules.

The fact that there’s two parts to the BS EA ability, doesn’t mean they’re separate abilities: they are both still part of the BS EA. Likewise, the two aspects of the Fighter EA - one extra attack at 5, and an additional one at 11 - aren’t separate abilities, but are both part of the Fighter EA ability. To mix and match different parts of these abilities is still to add them together, which isn’t allowed, RAW.

To put it another way, if you tell your DM that for your Attack Action you’re using your (3) attacks from the Fighter 11 feature and swapping out one attack using the feature of BS 6 feature; you’d be combing those two aspects of different features together, no? I see no way, logically, around this being the case: you have to add features of two different abilities in order for this to work, and adding those features together is expressly prohibited.

Apologies if I’m mistaken, but I really get the feeling you’re trying to say “the intention of the Multiclass rule on EA is to only not allow the stacking of attacks from multiple instances of EA, and not to prevent the combining of any other aspects of any EA.” If this is so, we can move this to a RAI discussion, if we so desire to continue it.

[DarknessEternal]

Unless you're running a high-strength non-EK Bladesinger (and why would you?),

Because you have created a discussion point in which only pure damage per round matters, that's why.

[Unoriginal]

Because you have created a discussion point in which only pure damage per round matters, that's why.

If the goal is damage-per-round, I don't see how the BladeSTR is competitive.

[Xetheral]

Because you have created a discussion point in which only pure damage per round matters, that's why.

To clarify, my intent was to compare the resourceless DPR of two otherwise-acceptable Fighter/Bladesinger multiclass builds. Going STR instead of DEX on the BM6/BS7 multiclass would make the overall build much worse while only squeezing out an extra point or two of DPR.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

A non-EK Bladesinger has no way to get a reliable bonus action attack that is eligible for GWM. The best bonus action attacks available to non-EK Bladesingers are TWF and PAM. Dual Wielder+TWF style gives d8+DEX damage on all three attacks. PAM+Dueling gives 1d6+STR+2 for two attacks, and 1d4+STR+2 for the third attack. Unless you're running a high-strength non-EK Bladesinger (and why would you?), the ability to use DEX makes TWF the optimal option for resourceless DPR for the BM6/BS7 build.

I'd like to explore this: Is a strength based bladesinger viable? Basically you'd be getting nothing out of the 2nd level Bladesinger ability, but with a level of fighter you could take Plate Armor, Defense Fighting Style, and a Feat that substantially increases your damage output, PAM or GWM. You'd have AC 19, a reliable bonus action, and attacks that are going to dwarf the damage of the Dex based Bladesinger.
The Dex based bladesinger, as you say probably needs to pick up a weapon in the other hand to get a reliable bonus action. This means that Warcaster is a need, so Dual Wielder will have to wait (if be taken at all). With the same 1 level Fighter dip they could take TWF to get the bonus damage with the off hand, but will still be doing 1-6 base damage with every hit.
For a non VHuman this means at level 1/11 they've still had the opportunity for 1ASI (intelligence) meaning their AC will also be 19 (Dex 16, Int 18), but with far less damage output. Obviously there are other benefits of Bladesinging, like movement and Con Saves, but once you get the 6th level ability I'd argue the damage output is a reasonable trade. Mostly this has to do with how poor fighting with 2 weapons is in 5e, and how much investment there needs to be to make it viable, particularly for most casters. Would I want to play through 6 levels and get nothing out of my subclass? Maybe not, but for a campaign that went through tier 2 + 3 it's worth a thought.

[mistajames]

As classes, they are very different because of their mechanics.

Bladesinger is a full-caster. They have access to competent defences when they use Bladesong, but they only get [ProfMod] Bladesong uses per day. That means 2 uses in T1, and 3 uses in T2 play. Assuming that each Bladesong use lasts for 1 combat, and assuming 6 combats you're only going to be able to use Bladesong in either 1/2 or 1/3 of combats.

Bladesong also has some downsides, namely:

1. It takes a bonus action to use
2. It is only useable in light armor
3. It doesn't allow you to use two-handed heavy weapons (meaning no GWM).

The other issue with Bladesinger is that it is MAD. You can make a perfectly serviceable Eldritch Knight who takes GWM/PAM, straps on full plate, and pumps strength, and only taking buff spells. In fact, I would call this an optimized EK. Bladesinger needs to choose between pumping Dexterity (and thus putting off War Caster/Intelligence boosts) or pumping Intelligence (and thus putting off Dexterity boosts).

A Bladesinger with 20 Dex is actually quite strong. You're probably sitting on 18 base AC, which is workable. You have access to defensive spells to shore this up, and actually casting these spells is pretty much required if you don't want to die a horrible death. That said, 20 AC at level 4 with all attacks against you at disadvantage is very, very good. False Life bridges a lot of the gap between Fighter and Wizard HP (but again, costs another spell slot). Throwing out 2 L3 Shadow Blade attacks/turn with a Booming Blade and Elven Accuracy actually does a lot of single-target damage at level 6. The trick is managing how many spells you allocate to each fight. A L6 Bladesinger can probably afford to have SB up every fight, but if they do so they can't regularly cast other spells. They still have ritual casting, so they're still useful, but there is a cost.

In terms of damage output, the EK is probably coming ahead, but the optimized builds are comparable in terms of damage output. Calcs:

VH Greatsword (20 STR, AC = 18) EK 6: +3 to-hit, 2*(2d6+5+10+1[GWF Adjustment])*1.22[adjustment for Action Surge]=[avg 56.12]
High Elf Bladesinger 6, Elven Accuracy (18 Dex, AC = 17): +7 to-hit, (3d8+4)+(3d8+1d8+4)=[avg 39.5]
Bladesinger has a 20% (+4) higher hit chance, actual damage adjustment will depend on target AC and advantage/disadvantage. No adjustment for advantage/disadvantage or crit chance (which both favor the BS due to Elven Accuracy and easy advantage on Shadow Blade). No adjustment for BA attack on GWM, which favors EK.

IMO, a VH PAM/GWM EK is going to out-damage the BS by a slightly higher margin.

Your EK is basically a fighter in full plate who can cast Shield 3x/day. If we assume that each fight lasts 3 rounds and 6 fights/day, Action Surge gives an additional 4 attacks/day in T2 play, or a 22.2% increase in your total damage output for the day. Again, a sizeable increase, when you factor in feats.

Thing is, as a Bladesinger you actually need to commit to casting buffs to go in melee, which means that your other casting will suffer. If you focus on casting and Crowd Control, your melee will suffer. Basically, something's gotta give.

In T3 play, the Bladesinger doesn't get anything that buffs their melee damage output close to what Extra Attack (2) does. Action Surge (2) also gives another (+22% additive) damage bonus in favor of the Fighter. Also, due to 5e's wonky caster spell slot progression, EK also gains more spell slots faster as they level up to certain break-points, while Wizard's overall slot growth slows (but in exchange they get access to much more powerful spells). They double their total spell slots at L7 (going from 3x L1 slots to 4x L1 and 2x L2), and gain another massive boost at L13 with L3 slots. IMO, EK is one of the strongest fighter subclasses at higher levels, and one of the weaker ones at lower levels (due to their wonky spell slot progression).

[Xetheral]

I'd like to explore this: Is a strength based bladesinger viable? Basically you'd be getting nothing out of the 2nd level Bladesinger ability, but with a level of fighter you could take Plate Armor, Defense Fighting Style, and a Feat that substantially increases your damage output, PAM or GWM. You'd have AC 19, a reliable bonus action, and attacks that are going to dwarf the damage of the Dex based Bladesinger.
The Dex based bladesinger, as you say probably needs to pick up a weapon in the other hand to get a reliable bonus action. This means that Warcaster is a need, so Dual Wielder will have to wait (if be taken at all). With the same 1 level Fighter dip they could take TWF to get the bonus damage with the off hand, but will still be doing 1-6 base damage with every hit.
For a non VHuman this means at level 1/11 they've still had the opportunity for 1ASI (intelligence) meaning their AC will also be 19 (Dex 16, Int 18), but with far less damage output. Obviously there are other benefits of Bladesinging, like movement and Con Saves, but once you get the 6th level ability I'd argue the damage output is a reasonable trade. Mostly this has to do with how poor fighting with 2 weapons is in 5e, and how much investment there needs to be to make it viable, particularly for most casters. Would I want to play through 6 levels and get nothing out of my subclass? Maybe not, but for a campaign that went through tier 2 + 3 it's worth a thought.

Personally if I wanted to go with a STR-based Bladesinger I think the EK7/BS6 multiclass analyzed above would be the way to do it. The synergy between BS Extra Attack and War Magic with GWM gives it a niche to fill (resourceless DPR) that a STR-based FTR1/BS12 can't match at an equivalent level. Sure, the latter has a lot more spellcasting, but a DEX-based FTR1/BS12 has the same spellcasting and has many more defensive options at the cost of only marginally less damage than the STR-based version.

[mistajames]

Personally if I wanted to go with a STR-based Bladesinger I think the EK7/BS6 multiclass analyzed above would be the way to do it. The synergy between BS Extra Attack and War Magic with GWM gives it a niche to fill (resourceless DPR) that a STR-based FTR1/BS12 can't match at an equivalent level. Sure, the latter has a lot more spellcasting, but a DEX-based FTR1/BS12 has the same spellcasting and has many more defensive options at the cost of only marginally less damage than the STR-based version.

EK7/BS6 has slots as a BS8 (4/3/3/2), 3 ASIs, but only has access to L3 spells. EK 13 has (4/3/3/3/2/1) slots and has L4, L5, L6, and L7 spells and 3 ASIs. Even the BS13 is casting Summon Fiend with their L6-7 slots for a 60ft fly speed and 3 BA attacks at 2d6+9, the BS13 is going to orders of magnitude more effective in actual play.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Personally if I wanted to go with a STR-based Bladesinger I think the EK7/BS6 multiclass analyzed above would be the way to do it. The synergy between BS Extra Attack and War Magic with GWM gives it a niche to fill (resourceless DPR) that a STR-based FTR1/BS12 can't match at an equivalent level. Sure, the latter has a lot more spellcasting, but a DEX-based FTR1/BS12 has the same spellcasting and has many more defensive options at the cost of only marginally less damage than the STR-based version.

I'm a bit lost at what you think you get out of Fighter levels 3-7 with that build. Clearly Fighter 1 is key, and Fighter 2 gives you action surge. EK 3 does make your Fighter levels a full spell level for determining caster level, but the BS also gets a full caster level and higher level spells in some levels. I'd consider Battlemaster if I was going to add a 3rd fighter level.
The EK's 5th level Extra Attack and 7th EK War Magic are totally wasted with that build since Bladesinger 6 Extra Attack is superior to both.

So far as fighter levels go I'd say 1 and 2 are good. EK 3 might give you something (a couple of hp and cantrips), but I don't think it's worth the trade. 5-7 are horrible and close to empty levels compared to extra BS levels.

[Witty Username]

In T3 play, the Bladesinger doesn't get anything that buffs their melee damage output close to what Extra Attack (2) does. Action Surge (2) also gives another (+22% additive) damage bonus in favor of the Fighter.

In T3 Bladesinger can cast animate objects to add 10d4+40 melee damage as a bonus action while they have the spell active. At 11th they can do this 3 times per long rest. By 13th level they will have access to simulacrum doubling their no resources damage output.

Edit: Also, 13th level is where they get their 5th bladesong meaning it will be up essentially every combat.

[mistajames]

In T3 Bladesinger can cast animate objects to add 10d4+40 melee damage as a bonus action while they have the spell active. At 11th they can do this 3 times per long rest. By 13th level they will have access to simulacrum doubling their no resources damage output.

Edit: Also, 13th level is where they get their 5th bladesong meaning it will be up essentially every combat.

Well, a T3 or T4 wizard played as a primary caster will certainly be more powerful than any gish, but we're talking about mixing it up in melee, and how Bladesinger compares to EK.

A necromancer sporting Danse Macabre is going to do even more damage than the Animated Objects (1d6+9), and the resulting 5 skeletons last even longer (1 hour) and attack at range. A L14 Illusionist can create real objects at-will. A diviner can just "no-save-banish you to the Elemental Plane of Fire". Mixing it up in melee ain't really cutting it.

[Valmark]

Well, a T3 or T4 wizard played as a primary caster will certainly be more powerful than any gish, but we're talking about mixing it up in melee, and how Bladesinger compares to EK.

A necromancer sporting Danse Macabre is going to do even more damage than the Animated Objects (1d6+9), and the resulting 5 skeletons last even longer (1 hour) and attack at range. A L14 Illusionist can create real objects at-will. A diviner can just "no-save-banish you to the Elemental Plane of Fire". Mixing it up in melee ain't really cutting it.

I'm not sure comparing a wizard with other wizards makes sense if you want to compare a wizard with a fighter. Or did I misunderstand what you meant?

[mistajames]

I'm not sure comparing a wizard with other wizards makes sense if you want to compare a wizard with a fighter. Or did I misunderstand what you meant?

Well, I'm explaining why I'm not comparing Animate Objects to using Shadow Blade. There are better ways of doing damage than mixing it up in melee, but I'm trying to see how well the Bladesinger mixes it up in melee compared to the Fighter.

[Valmark]

Well, I'm explaining why I'm not comparing Animate Objects to using Shadow Blade. There are better ways of doing damage than mixing it up in melee, but I'm trying to see how well the Bladesinger mixes it up in melee compared to the Fighter.

Oh, I understand now.

Speaking of which, I'm not sure it's true that Bladesingers don't get anything comparable to Fighters' extra attack (2).

Don't get me wrong, it would be completely fair since the EK is more fight-y while the BS is more cast-y, but still, a BS can upcast Shadow Blade to higher damage then an EK or use Tenser's Transformation (Although I don't think TT deals more damage then a level 5 Shadow Blade). And they add Int to all attacks' damage with Bladesong starting from level 14 which I think is late tier 3.

How does that work out math-wise?

[Samayu]

I'm not sure how useful the Eldritch Knight's sword-summoning power is.

It's certainly not going to come up much. the most likely scenario is when your weapons have been taken from you, and a fight begins. Not common. I used the ability once. BBeG was trying to take my sword. He dropped me, picked up the weapon and ran. I was healed, and without even sitting up I returned the sword to my hand. BBeG fled without the sword that was designed to kill him. It was pretty key, but so niche that it borders on coincidental.

[Unoriginal]

a BS can upcast Shadow Blade to higher damage then an EK or use Tenser's Transformation (Although I don't think TT deals more damage then a level 5 Shadow Blade). And they add Int to all attacks' damage with Bladesong starting from level 14 which I think is late tier 3.

And if the Bladesinger gets damaged once, they're at the mercy of the dice to maintain Concentration due to not having the ASI to invest in decent CON nor proficiency in CON saves unless they sacrifice something else (so still impacting their performance heavily).

And the Bladesinger won't get damaged only once.

[Valmark]

And if the Bladesinger gets damaged once, they're at the mercy of the dice to maintain Concentration due to not having the ASI to invest in decent CON nor proficiency in CON saves unless they sacrifice something else (so still impacting their performance heavily).

And the Bladesinger won't get damaged only once.

Tbf until high levels their Int will offset the lack of a Con save proficiency (because they get Int added to the save for Concentration). And assuming 20 int even at high levels they'll be just a +1 behind (this is with Bladesong. Without it it's a non-issue since they don't even boost their damage, of course they'll be behind when compared to an EK).

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Ok, I'm coining a term that I don't think has been used before: STRadesinger. A strength based Bladesinger that dips fighter. Feel free to tell me if someone has used the term before, but for now I'm claiming it.
Basically is it's a Bladesinger that doesn't Bladesing. Yes, it's pretty mediocre until F1/BS6, but at that point you have gish in heavy armor with a good fighting feat, PAM or GWM, that can Multi-attack with one of those being a blade cantrip, and (likely) trigger a bonus attack. Cast Haste and you've got a 4th attack. With PAM you might get a 5th on reaction. Take Fighter 2 and you action surge for a spell or a 2 more attacks. You can keep taking BS levels for more spells or take (for example) Battlemaster 3 for a dozen BM maneuvers per day. Throw in Warcaster at some point and all reactions from say PAM or Brace are going to be Blade cantrips as well.

[Witty Username]

Well, I'm explaining why I'm not comparing Animate Objects to using Shadow Blade. There are better ways of doing damage than mixing it up in melee, but I'm trying to see how well the Bladesinger mixes it up in melee compared to the Fighter.

Animate objects can be combined with attacks because it only requires a bonus action to use(past the first round, you do need to take a prep turn or cast it pre-combat). So a bladesinger can use it to augment combat.
A necromancer could do the same with danse macabre is true, ish. They don't have the defense/weapon use of a bladesinger so they are likely to not engage the enemy like a gish would.

Which I think speaks to the thread topic, Bladesinger can output more as a martial by mixing martial prowess with spells, spells are a more significant part of what they do but they still use the rapier, still wear armor and still engage. Meanwhile an EK can make a third attack if they sacrifice casting a cantrip, which being able to cast a cantrip and attack is their gish maneuver. Even if they are more effective it is by being less of a gish.

And if the Bladesinger gets damaged once, they're at the mercy of the dice to maintain Concentration due to not having the ASI to invest in decent CON nor proficiency in CON saves unless they sacrifice something else (so still impacting their performance heavily).

And the Bladesinger won't get damaged only once.

In addition to bladesong, it is not much investment to take warcaster or resilient(con) since nearly every character that concentrates on spells will take at least one. And you will still get to dex 20/ int 20 dex 20 or int 20 by level 12. and shield/Absorb elements/song of defense are all things that negate hits/reduce damage.

[Tanarii]

And you will still get to dex 20/ int 20 by level 12.

Hows that work?

[Witty Username]

Hows that work?

Sorry I fumbled my short hand, I meant Dex 20 or Int 20, Not Dex 20 and Int 20.

[Xetheral]

EK7/BS6 has slots as a BS8 (4/3/3/2), 3 ASIs, but only has access to L3 spells. EK 13 has (4/3/3/3/2/1) slots and has L4, L5, L6, and L7 spells and 3 ASIs. Even the BS13 is casting Summon Fiend with their L6-7 slots for a 60ft fly speed and 3 BA attacks at 2d6+9, the BS13 is going to orders of magnitude more effective in actual play.

EK13 is also limited to 3rd level spells, and unlike the EK7/BS6 doesn't have 4th level slots. The EK7/BS6 also does more damage than the EK13, since it gets the same three attacks (albeit at the cost of both the action and bonus action) but one of them can be Booming Blade.

I entirely agree that the BS 13 with summoned demons will likely be more effective. But this thread is about being a Gish, not a demon summoner.

I'm a bit lost at what you think you get out of Fighter levels 3-7 with that build. Clearly Fighter 1 is key, and Fighter 2 gives you action surge. EK 3 does make your Fighter levels a full spell level for determining caster level, but the BS also gets a full caster level and higher level spells in some levels. I'd consider Battlemaster if I was going to add a 3rd fighter level.
The EK's 5th level Extra Attack and 7th EK War Magic are totally wasted with that build since Bladesinger 6 Extra Attack is superior to both.

So far as fighter levels go I'd say 1 and 2 are good. EK 3 might give you something (a couple of hp and cantrips), but I don't think it's worth the trade. 5-7 are horrible and close to empty levels compared to extra BS levels.

EK7 is key, since War Magic stacks with Bladesinger Extra Attack. (War Magic requires using your action to cast a cantrip, which is satisfied by using your action to cast a cantrip and attack with BS Extra Attack.) That gives a reliable bonus action attack with GWM, something that otherwise is extremely hard to get. (I think Frenzy Barbarians are the only other ones who can do it? But they can't take advantage of BS Extra Attack at the same time.) That's what makes the multiclass's resourceless damage so high.

Of course, resourceless damage is a narrow niche in which to build a character, but it's not a bad one, especially at tables with exceptionally long adventuring days.

Ok, I'm coining a term that I don't think has been used before: STRadesinger. A strength based Bladesinger that dips fighter. Feel free to tell me if someone has used the term before, but for now I'm claiming it.
Basically is it's a Bladesinger that doesn't Bladesing. Yes, it's pretty mediocre until F1/BS6, but at that point you have gish in heavy armor with a good fighting feat, PAM or GWM, that can Multi-attack with one of those being a blade cantrip, and (likely) trigger a bonus attack. Cast Haste and you've got a 4th attack. With PAM you might get a 5th on reaction. Take Fighter 2 and you action surge for a spell or a 2 more attacks. You can keep taking BS levels for more spells or take (for example) Battlemaster 3 for a dozen BM maneuvers per day. Throw in Warcaster at some point and all reactions from say PAM or Brace are going to be Blade cantrips as well.

That's basically what the EK7/BS6 multiclass discussed above does, but it leverages War Magic for a more reliable bonus action GWM attack than the one occasionally provided by GWM itself. PAM's bonus action attack is similarly reliable, but of course does far less damage.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

EK13 is also limited to 3rd level spells, and unlike the EK7/BS6 doesn't have 4th level slots. The EK7/BS6 also does more damage than the EK13, since it gets the same three attacks (albeit at the cost of both the action and bonus action) but one of them can be Booming Blade.

I entirely agree that the BS 13 with summoned demons will likely be more effective. But this thread is about being a Gish, not a demon summoner.



EK7 is key, since War Magic stacks with Bladesinger Extra Attack. (War Magic requires using your action to cast a cantrip, which is satisfied by using your action to cast a cantrip and attack with BS Extra Attack.) That gives a reliable bonus action attack with GWM, something that otherwise is extremely hard to get. (I think Frenzy Barbarians are the only other ones who can do it? But they can't take advantage of BS Extra Attack at the same time.) That's what makes the multiclass's resourceless damage so high.

Of course, resourceless damage is a narrow niche in which to build a character, but it's not a bad one, especially at tables with exceptionally long adventuring days.



That's basically what the EK7/BS6 multiclass discussed above does, but it leverages War Magic for a more reliable bonus action GWM attack than the one occasionally provided by GWM itself. PAM's bonus action attack is similarly reliable, but of course does far less damage.

OK, now I get what you are trying to do. I still think that's a heck of an investment. Obviously it depends on a lot on the situation, but with the amount of damage say a F2/ BS 11 or Battlemaster 3/ BS 10 could dish out I think you are likely to kill something or crit most of the time and trigger the bonus action. But fair enough; for resourceless damage you have it. I'd still rather play the character with the smaller fighter dip.

[Tanarii]

Sorry I fumbled my short hand, I meant Dex 20 or Int 20, Not Dex 20 and Int 20.

Oh good. I was hurting my head trying to figure out what race and how many fighter levels were needed for that.

[Xetheral]

OK, now I get what you are trying to do. I still think that's a heck of an investment. Obviously it depends on a lot on the situation, but with the amount of damage say a F2/ BS 11 or Battlemaster 3/ BS 10 could dish out I think you are likely to kill something or crit most of the time and trigger the bonus action. But fair enough; for resourceless damage you have it. I'd still rather play the character with the smaller fighter dip.

I probably would too. I'd be more likely to consider the multiclass as an alternative to straight EK, rather than as a replacement for a straight Bladesinger or a Bladesinger with a dip.

[DarknessEternal]

Throw in Warcaster at some point and all reactions from say PAM or Brace are going to be Blade cantrips as well.

This no longer works.