Adding Mechanical *Crunch* to the 3.P Ventriloquism spell ...

[Miss Disaster]

Over the years, I've witnessed over a dozen quality DMs struggle with assigning consistent and sensible mechanical bonuses (for the caster) & penalties (on the bad guys affected by it) to the effects of the Ventriloquism spell.

While the spell's text implies it is meant to be an environmental flavor spell, when used by clever players, it inevitably will manifest impact on the game's mechanics while used in play. The following game mechanics are ones I've seen given bonuses and penalties:

1. Skills - Perception (PF), Listen (3.5), & Bluff (3.P)
2. Other - Initiative Rolls (3.P)

When used cleverly, the spell can do some interesting things that have game mechanic impact. It can cause an enemy to cast (ahem, *waste*) a spell in Ventriloquism's general direction, such as a fog or wall spell to block off a perceived enemy force. It can cause elements of an enemy force to separate into 2 smaller enemy forces in order to address a perceived threat in a different direction/location. As you can see, we now have effects that border on mal-affecting enemy Action Economy and wasting their limited resources. You get the gist ...

What I'm looking for in this thread, are testimonials and suggestions for sensible ways to assign small bonuses and penalties to those wielding or victimized-by Ventriloquism. Especially hard-to-quantify conditions such as "being distracted by someone dangerous perceived to be behind you".

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If your suggestions for assigning such #'s to this spell also make it necessary to modify this spell's - such as making it a 2nd level spell, etc. - all those ideas are welcome as well!

[Jack_Simth]

So you want something like....

If the opponents fail the save and do not successfully identify your spell, you may make a skill check to have them behave in one of the following manners (opposed by the leader of the target group's skill check):
Target Nothing: By rolling Bluff vs. your opponents' Sense Motive, you can convince the target that the real target is "hidden over there", and get them to waste resources dealing with such. That might be shooting arrows at the expected square, that might be lobbing a fireball into the area, casting a spell to reveal invisible creatures, et cetera.
Split Forces: This only works on a group, not an individual. By rolling Bluff vs. your opponents' Sense Motive, you can convince the target that they are facing a split party, causing them to split up to face both sections. Half of the group heads down a direction of your choosing (note that they're not mind-controlled, and will still behave reasonably - so they won't march off a cliff or anything, will react to any threats that surface, take AoO's, and so on).
Retreat: By rolling Intimdate vs. your opponents' Sense Motive, you can make them believe that they are facing overwhelming odds, and that retreat is the best course of action. If there's a path for retreat, your opponents make an organized attempt to reach a perceived safe haven. Note that creatures with a "fight until slain" morale (most mindless creatures, for instance) will not retreat regardless of the skill checks.

So really, a bad guy gets three chances to defeat the spell:
Will Save to recognize the illusion (anyone can make)
Spellcraft to recognize the illusion (trained only, but it's also relatively common)
Sense Motive to recognize the trickery (Most monsters don't actually have ranks in this, which means if you invest, you'll usually win)

Should be in line with a 1st level spell, but still allow clever use, no?

[Miss Disaster]

Hey Jack. Oooooo .... this looks really, really good! Let me test it out a bit with my group tonight and get back to you. At 1st glance, I like your revision suggestions!

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P.S. I realize that my original request was certainly adding a bit more complexity to the spell than some people may like. But it's such an iconic and history-rich spell, it kinda needed some *oomph* added to make it more alluring as a "decent" 1st level spell instead of one that's relegated to the basement level of player interest.

Also, this spell is one that I think behooves the player to courtesy-notify the DM before play that it's gonna get cast. Talk it over with the DM to see how your use of it might impact their game mechanic adjudications involving NPCs. Nobody wants a spell to bring dynamic tabletop play to a screeching halt while the mechanical interpretation gets all sorted out.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you're invisible or hiding, ventriloquism is useful for disguising verbal components of spells, since you have to "speak in a clear, strong voice," which means no whispering, which means your attempts to hide are pretty much shot. So make your voice come from elsewhere. Unfortunately, you have to have ventriloquism cast beforehand, because you can't use ventriloquism on its own verbal component. The fact that it even has a verbal component is dumb, since it negates the use of the spell in the first place for a good half the potential uses.

[Miss Disaster]

If you're invisible or hiding, ventriloquism is useful for disguising verbal components of spells, since you have to "speak in a clear, strong voice," which means no whispering, which means your attempts to hide are pretty much shot. So make your voice come from elsewhere. Unfortunately, you have to have ventriloquism cast beforehand, because you can't use ventriloquism on its own verbal component. The fact that it even has a verbal component is dumb, since it negates the use of the spell in the first place for a good half the potential uses.

Agreed regarding the Verbal component. On that note, I forgot that nearly 6 years ago, I authored a similar thread here at GitP Forums about Ventriloquism. StreamoftheSky had some good points about the Verbal requirement because of Bard casting. I do think that there should be some differentiation in the casting mechanics (and possibly the effects) of Ventriloquism when cast by a Bard compared to another class. Bards should be more effective with this spell because of iconic thematics.

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@Jack_Simth ... We did some playtesting with your 3 option "boosts" to Ventriloquism. All went well. Here's some additional notes:

1. TARGET NOTHING - Vs. foes with no resources to use (like an Owlbear), it also becomes "waste Action Economy". As the creature may chose to move-action and investigate the geographical location of the thrown sound.
2. SPLIT FORCES - If the caster's party is visually numerous, the enemy group may find a solo thrown voice in the tunnel to not be worth hunting down due to the dangerous numbers up in their grill. If the caster's party is visually sparse, the enemy group will be more inclined to check out the thrown voice.
3. RETREAT - Based on your final sentence you wrote (which is a good point), there's probably a 3rd option here, too. Retreat, Tactical Withdrawal and Stand Your Ground. But, boy, am I making things overly complex here! :-)

Also, your "Spellcraft to recognize the Illusion" comment made me realize that that right there is one of the biggest impediments to making Ventriloquism scale effectively as you rise up in levels. You can do CharOp buildcrafting to boost or Heighten the spell's Will Save and Bluff/Intimidate Skill Checks .... but there's little you can do to debuff high-level enemy Spellcraft checks for the audio exposure to Ventriloquism.

[Jack_Simth]

Agreed regarding the Verbal component. On that note, I forgot that nearly 6 years ago, I authored a similar thread here at GitP Forums about Ventriloquism. StreamoftheSky had some good points about the Verbal requirement because of Bard casting. I do think that there should be some differentiation in the casting mechanics (and possibly the effects) of Ventriloquism when cast by a Bard compared to another class. Bards should be more effective with this spell because of iconic thematics.

***

@Jack_Simth ... We did some playtesting with your 3 option "boosts" to Ventriloquism. All went well. Here's some additional notes:

1. TARGET NOTHING - Vs. foes with no resources to use (like an Owlbear), it also becomes "waste Action Economy". As the creature may chose to move-action and investigate the geographical location of the thrown sound.
2. SPLIT FORCES - If the caster's party is visually numerous, the enemy group may find a solo thrown voice in the tunnel to not be worth hunting down due to the dangerous numbers up in their grill. If the caster's party is visually sparse, the enemy group will be more inclined to check out the thrown voice.
3. RETREAT - Based on your final sentence you wrote (which is a good point), there's probably a 3rd option here, too. Retreat, Tactical Withdrawal and Stand Your Ground. But, boy, am I making things overly complex here! :-)

Also, your "Spellcraft to recognize the Illusion" comment made me realize that that right there is one of the biggest impediments to making Ventriloquism scale effectively as you rise up in levels. You can do CharOp buildcrafting to boost or Heighten the spell's Will Save and Bluff/Intimidate Skill Checks .... but there's little you can do to debuff high-level enemy Spellcraft checks for the audio exposure to Ventriloquism.

Sure there is: Silent Spell. Remove the audio exposure entirely.

Also of note: There's very little reason this can't be applied to most Illusion(Figment) spells - Silent Image, Minor Image, Major Image, et cetera could all reasonably do similar things (Illusory Wall would be a stretch, though). Just make sure to explain how it works within the other limits of the spells.

Possibly give a bonus to the Bluff / Intimidate checks based on how many senses the spell used affects (seeing, hearing, and smelling a dragon is a much easier "sell" than simply hearing one voice), and a penalty for every "extra" sense the targets have that the spell does not (e.g., someone with Blindsight is less likely to be tricked by a Major Image than someone without). Hmm...

Regardless: You've accomplished your purpose for your table. Yay!

[Miss Disaster]

One thing to keep in mind, I play with the spell in both 3.5 and Pathfinder. There's gonna be a different way of adjudicating Ventriloquism because of Pathfinder's stealth-errata regarding stealth casting and spell components. Ugh.

It's so much easier to stealth cast in 3.5.