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    Default Does Assume Supernatural Ability only work with polymorph?

    This is a discussion that spawned from another thread. The OP of that thread asked us to make a new thread and take the discussion there so I am doing that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Assume Supernatural Abililty
    You learn to use a supernatural ability of an assumed form.
    Prerequisite
    WIS 13, ability to assume a new form magically,

    Required for
    Improved Assume Supernatural Ability (SS) ,

    Benefit
    You learn to use a single supernatural ability of another kind of creature while assuming its form through a polymorph self spell or a similar effect. The saving throw DC against this ability is based on your ability scores, not those of a standard creature of the kind whose form you've assumed. For a breath weapon, the saving throw DC is 10 + your Constitution modifier + 1/2 your Hit Dice (rounded down). For all other supernatural abilities, the saving throw (if any) DC is 10 + your Charisma modifier + 1/2 your Hit Dice (rounded down). If a creature, such as an undead, has no Constitution score, use its Charisma modifier or its Constitution modifier (+0 for a nonability), whichever is higher, to determine the save DC. Using this alien ability is disorienting. You take a -2 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. Additionally, in a stressful or demanding situation (such as combat), you must succeed on a Will save (DC 19) or be unable to use the ability.
    So the argument is that some people believe that
    "polymorph self spell or a similar effect."
    is saying that Assume Supernatural Ability only works with "polymorph effects". Because "similar effects" is referencing polymorph and only polymorph. So in order for Assume Supernatural Ability to work, you must assume a new form magically with a Polymorph effect.
    "similar effects" = "polymorph effect"

    So what is a "Polymorph Effect?"
    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm
    Quote Originally Posted by d20srd
    Polymorph

    Magic can cause creatures and characters to change their shapes—sometimes against their will, but usually to gain an advantage. Polymorphed creatures retain their own minds but have new physical forms.

    The polymorph spell defines the general polymorph effect.

    Unless stated otherwise, creatures can polymorph into forms of the same type or into an aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin form. Most spells and abilities that grant the ability to polymorph place a cap on the Hit Dice of the form taken.

    Polymorphed creatures gain the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution of their new forms, as well as size, extraordinary special attacks, movement capabilities (to a maximum of 120 feet for flying and 60 for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons, racial skill bonuses, and other gross physical qualities such as appearance and number of limbs. They retain their original class and level, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, hit points, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and alignment.

    Creatures who polymorph keep their worn or held equipment if the new form is capable of wearing or holding it. Otherwise, it melds with the new form and ceases to function for the duration of the polymorph.
    So any ability that doesn't fall under this, or PHBII's polymorph subschool, does not work with Assume Supernatural Ability. This includes Wild Shape, Alternate Form, Change Shape, Minor Change Shape, Alter Shape, and all the other ways of transforming into another creature without using a "polymorph effect".




    Now my belief is that "similar effects" means "assuming a new form magically" because the first line of the feat and the feat prerequisite asks for an ability to assume a new form magically, not polymorph. So as long as an ability is magical and says you can assume a new form, you can use Assume Supernatural Ability with it. Polymorph is simply an example of a way to assume a new form magically.
    "similar effect" = "assuming a new form magically".

    In addition Rules Compendium p.24-26 has a section about Changing Forms, and lumps Alternate Form, Change Shape, Alter self, Animal Shapes, Baleful Polymorph, Polymorph, Shapechange, A Thousand Faces, and Wild Shape all together under the same category of effects. That is the very definition of "similar".

    So in your opinion, what does "similar effects" mean?
    Does it mean specifically Polymorph?
    Or does it mean anything that magically lets you assume a new form?

    EDIT:
    I forgot to include a third Argument.
    We also had some people say "similar effect" means something with the same power as polymorph. So no Alter Self, but yes to Wild Shape.
    Is this the correct interpretation?
    Last edited by gogogome; 2021-01-18 at 09:30 AM.

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    Default Re: Does Assume Supernatural Ability only work with polymorph?

    1. There's no special rules meaning for "similar effect"
    2. It's 3.0 and requires revision anyway
    3. DM discretion, QED

    Hopefully this answers your question.

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    Default Re: Does Assume Supernatural Ability only work with polymorph?

    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    So any ability that doesn't fall under this, or PHBII's polymorph subschool, does not work with Assume Supernatural Ability. This includes Wild Shape, Alternate Form, Change Shape, Minor Change Shape, Alter Shape, and all the other ways of transforming into another creature without using a "polymorph effect".
    Yeah.... no.

    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Now my belief is that "similar effects" means "assuming a new form magically". So as long as an ability is magical and says you can assume a new form, you can use Assume Supernatural Ability with it.
    "similar effect" = "assuming a new form magically".
    This is correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    EDIT:
    I forgot to include a third Argument.
    We also had some people say "similar effect" means something with the same power as polymorph. So no Alter Self, but yes to Wild Shape.
    Is this the correct interpretation?
    Yeah... no.


    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    2. It's 3.0 and requires revision anyway
    Metamorphic Transfer is identical to Assume Supernatural Ability except for the daily restrictions.

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    Default Re: Does Assume Supernatural Ability only work with polymorph?

    Quote Originally Posted by magicalmagicman View Post
    Metamorphic Transfer is identical to Assume Supernatural Ability except for the daily restrictions.
    Indeed, and it's a great fallback for when your DM revises the Savage Species feat unfavorably.

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    Default Re: Does Assume Supernatural Ability only work with polymorph?

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    1. There's no special rules meaning for "similar effect"
    2. It's 3.0 and requires revision anyway
    3. DM discretion, QED

    Hopefully this answers your question.
    We have a revision for the Polymorph spell line and that is all we need to solve this riddle imho.

    ________________________________

    ASA is only usable if you have a Polymorph like spell. A Polymorph like spells either mentions it explicitly or at least cover the same power potential as Polymorph. Otherwise they could have referred to Alter Self.

    Common sense interpretation of the word "polymorph" doesn't apply here, since it is a spell and thus a defined term in 3.5 that suppresses the common definition of the word.

    Alter Self want to be like Polymorph but lacks some of the things that spell offers. Shapechange on the other hand is like Polymorph because it offers more options/power.

    edit: And Minor Change Shape doesn't qualify as Polymorph like effect.

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    Default Re: Does Assume Supernatural Ability only work with polymorph?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    We have a revision for the Polymorph spell line and that is all we need to solve this riddle imho.

    ________________________________

    ASA is only usable if you have a Polymorph like spell. A Polymorph like spells either mentions it explicitly or at least cover the same power potential as Polymorph. Otherwise they could have referred to Alter Self.

    Common sense interpretation of the word "polymorph" doesn't apply here, since it is a spell and thus a defined term in 3.5 that suppresses the common definition of the word.

    Alter Self want to be like Polymorph but lacks some of the things that spell offers. Shapechange on the other hand is like Polymorph because it offers more options/power.

    edit: And Minor Change Shape doesn't qualify as Polymorph like effect.
    Give us rule citations instead of making baseless claims and pretending they're facts.

    The very first sentence of the feat says "you learn to use a supernatural ability of an assumed form."

    Trying to change that into "you learn to use a supernatural abillity with the polymorph spell" is deliberate misreading of the spell. Polymorph is simply one way to assume a new form.

    edit:
    Here's the dictionary definition of similar
    resembling without being identical.
    No one on the planet will ever say Wild Shape is not similar to Polymorph. You're saying Wild Shape doesn't work with ASA. Therefore you're wrong. Completely disproven.

    If you disagree then give me a rule citation that says Wild Shape is not similar to polymorph.
    Last edited by magicalmagicman; 2021-01-18 at 09:14 AM.

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    Default Re: Does Assume Supernatural Ability only work with polymorph?

    Quote Originally Posted by magicalmagicman View Post
    If you disagree then give me a rule citation that says Wild Shape is not similar to polymorph.
    I have the opposite. Rules Compendium has an entire section about changing forms and Alternate Form, Change Shape, Alter self, Animal Shapes, Baleful Polymorph, Polymorph, Shapechange, A Thousand Faces, and Wild Shape are all in that section together. If that's not the very definition of "similar" then I don't know what is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    ASA is only usable if you have a Polymorph like spell.
    You have provided no evidence nor rule citations that this is true. So prove this first before derailing about the consequences of such an interpretation.

    Prove that ASA only works with polymorph.
    Prove that Alternate Form, Change Shape, Alter Self, Animal Shapes A Thousand Faces, and Wild Shape are not "similar effects" to Baleful Polymorph, Polymorph, and Shapechange.
    Give me a rule citation.

    Also, I'll point out that A Thousand Faces is identical to Minor Change Shape so Assume Supernatural Ability most definitely does work with Minor Change Shape.
    Last edited by gogogome; 2021-01-18 at 09:38 AM.

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    Default Re: Does Assume Supernatural Ability only work with polymorph?

    Quote Originally Posted by magicalmagicman View Post
    Metamorphic Transfer is identical to Assume Supernatural Ability except for the daily restrictions.
    There are more differences than that. ASA requires you to choose a (Su) to use, and you can only use that one (Su), albeit as often as you want (up to the limits specified in the form you take). You also have to make a save or be unable to use the (Su) at all. MT, however allows you to choose on the fly each time you take a form, and you take no penalties and need not make any saves. ASA also gives you penalties to various things when you use it. MT, however, does not.
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2021-01-18 at 11:37 AM.

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    Default Re: Does Assume Supernatural Ability only work with polymorph?

    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    So what is a "Polymorph Effect?"
    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm


    So any ability that doesn't fall under this, or PHBII's polymorph subschool, does not work with Assume Supernatural Ability. This includes Wild Shape, Alternate Form, Change Shape, Minor Change Shape, Alter Shape, and all the other ways of transforming into another creature without using a "polymorph effect".
    Uhh, keep in mind that this is a 3.0 spell, and the 3.0 alternate form ability was literally "functions as polymorph", likewise was the druid wild shape. Meanwhile change shape straight up didn't exist as an ability. The doppelganger for example simply has an alter self Su ability (alter self, clearly not being a polymorph effect, since it's alter self not polymorph). The issue with the 3.5 change though was that some creatures that got change shape instead previously had alternate form which was based on polymorph. The succubus for example now has change shape when it used to have alternate form (based on polymorph), while the aforementioned doppelganger ALSO has change shape, when it previously had alter self, so we can't even say which side of the line change shape should fall under.

    So, I kinda agree with Troacctid in that it's a 3.0 relic and needs to be properly adapted, and for that to happen, it requires DM decision making.
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    Default Re: Does Assume Supernatural Ability only work with polymorph?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    Uhh, keep in mind that this is a 3.0 spell, and the 3.0 alternate form ability was literally "functions as polymorph", likewise was the druid wild shape. Meanwhile change shape straight up didn't exist as an ability. The doppelganger for example simply has an alter self Su ability (alter self, clearly not being a polymorph effect, since it's alter self not polymorph). The issue with the 3.5 change though was that some creatures that got change shape instead previously had alternate form which was based on polymorph. The succubus for example now has change shape when it used to have alternate form (based on polymorph), while the aforementioned doppelganger ALSO has change shape, when it previously had alter self, so we can't even say which side of the line change shape should fall under.
    Don't forget that alter self also worked totally differently and did not properly grant you the form of another creature, instead augmenting your own form with modifications like wings, gills, or extra limbs—so, at the time, it would likely not have been considered similar to polymorph self, even though now, post-update, polymorph actually references alter self!

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    Default Re: Does Assume Supernatural Ability only work with polymorph?

    Quote Originally Posted by magicalmagicman View Post
    Give us rule citations instead of making baseless claims and pretending they're facts.

    The very first sentence of the feat says "you learn to use a supernatural ability of an assumed form."

    Trying to change that into "you learn to use a supernatural abillity with the polymorph spell" is deliberate misreading of the spell. Polymorph is simply one way to assume a new form.

    edit:
    Here's the dictionary definition of similar

    No one on the planet will ever say Wild Shape is not similar to Polymorph. You're saying Wild Shape doesn't work with ASA. Therefore you're wrong. Completely disproven.

    If you disagree then give me a rule citation that says Wild Shape is not similar to polymorph.
    &
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    I have the opposite. Rules Compendium has an entire section about changing forms and Alternate Form, Change Shape, Alter self, Animal Shapes, Baleful Polymorph, Polymorph, Shapechange, A Thousand Faces, and Wild Shape are all in that section together. If that's not the very definition of "similar" then I don't know what is.


    You have provided no evidence nor rule citations that this is true. So prove this first before derailing about the consequences of such an interpretation.

    Prove that ASA only works with polymorph.
    Prove that Alternate Form, Change Shape, Alter Self, Animal Shapes A Thousand Faces, and Wild Shape are not "similar effects" to Baleful Polymorph, Polymorph, and Shapechange.
    Give me a rule citation.

    Also, I'll point out that A Thousand Faces is identical to Minor Change Shape so Assume Supernatural Ability most definitely does work with Minor Change Shape.

    It is quoted, bold and underlined in the opening post... but I'll point it out for you again..

    Benefit
    You learn to use a single supernatural ability of another kind of creature while assuming its form through a polymorph self spell or a similar effect.
    Now look in your 3.5 update booklet under Deleted Spells:
    Polymorph Self (see Polymorph)
    It is obvious that the feat only works with a "polymorph-like" spell. The oddity is that the requirements of the feat doesn't reflect this. You could indeed take the feat with qualifying via Wild Shape or Alter Self, but you can't gain the "Benefit" of the feat unless you use a polymorph-like spell.

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    Default Re: Does Assume Supernatural Ability only work with polymorph?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    So, I kinda agree with Troacctid in that it's a 3.0 relic and needs to be properly adapted, and for that to happen, it requires DM decision making.
    Adapted for what? The feat works perfectly fine unmodified in 3.5. The feat isn't demanding a polymorph effect. It's demanding the ability to assume a new form magically. The first line of the feat says it lets you use a Su ability of an assumed form. The prerequisite of the feat is the ability to assume a new form. 3.5 has many ways of assuming a new form magically.

    What part of the feat needs to be adapted for 3.5?

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    Default Re: Does Assume Supernatural Ability only work with polymorph?

    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    I have the opposite. Rules Compendium has an entire section about changing forms and Alternate Form, Change Shape, Alter self, Animal Shapes, Baleful Polymorph, Polymorph, Shapechange, A Thousand Faces, and Wild Shape are all in that section together. If that's not the very definition of "similar" then I don't know what is.
    not that there was any ambiguity before, but if rules compendium says all of those things are the same effect then this is really open and shut. and a thousand faces is minor change shape so using minor change shape with assume supernatural ability is also open and shut.

    not that there was any ambiguity before. saying wotc intentionally designed feats so that you can grab it without receiving any benefits as your chief reason as to why you should ignore the rest of the feat description to hamfist an additional requirement is such crazy nonsense my raw-or-die dm actually laughed when i showed it to him.

    this is open and shut. really.

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    Default Re: Does Assume Supernatural Ability only work with polymorph?

    There's like a zillion feats that you can meet the prerequisites for while still being incapable of receiving any benefit. Every metamagic feat, for example.

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