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2021-01-18, 12:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Does Assume Supernatural Ability only work with polymorph?
This is a discussion that spawned from another thread. The OP of that thread asked us to make a new thread and take the discussion there so I am doing that.
Originally Posted by Assume Supernatural Abililty
"polymorph self spell or a similar effect."
is saying that Assume Supernatural Ability only works with "polymorph effects". Because "similar effects" is referencing polymorph and only polymorph. So in order for Assume Supernatural Ability to work, you must assume a new form magically with a Polymorph effect.
"similar effects" = "polymorph effect"
So what is a "Polymorph Effect?"
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm
Originally Posted by d20srd
Now my belief is that "similar effects" means "assuming a new form magically" because the first line of the feat and the feat prerequisite asks for an ability to assume a new form magically, not polymorph. So as long as an ability is magical and says you can assume a new form, you can use Assume Supernatural Ability with it. Polymorph is simply an example of a way to assume a new form magically.
"similar effect" = "assuming a new form magically".
In addition Rules Compendium p.24-26 has a section about Changing Forms, and lumps Alternate Form, Change Shape, Alter self, Animal Shapes, Baleful Polymorph, Polymorph, Shapechange, A Thousand Faces, and Wild Shape all together under the same category of effects. That is the very definition of "similar".
So in your opinion, what does "similar effects" mean?
Does it mean specifically Polymorph?
Or does it mean anything that magically lets you assume a new form?
EDIT:
I forgot to include a third Argument.
We also had some people say "similar effect" means something with the same power as polymorph. So no Alter Self, but yes to Wild Shape.
Is this the correct interpretation?Last edited by gogogome; 2021-01-18 at 09:30 AM.
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2021-01-18, 12:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Does Assume Supernatural Ability only work with polymorph?
1. There's no special rules meaning for "similar effect"
2. It's 3.0 and requires revision anyway
3. DM discretion, QED
Hopefully this answers your question.Rhymes with "Protracted."
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2021-01-18, 01:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Does Assume Supernatural Ability only work with polymorph?
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2021-01-18, 01:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Does Assume Supernatural Ability only work with polymorph?
Rhymes with "Protracted."
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2021-01-18, 02:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Does Assume Supernatural Ability only work with polymorph?
We have a revision for the Polymorph spell line and that is all we need to solve this riddle imho.
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ASA is only usable if you have a Polymorph like spell. A Polymorph like spells either mentions it explicitly or at least cover the same power potential as Polymorph. Otherwise they could have referred to Alter Self.
Common sense interpretation of the word "polymorph" doesn't apply here, since it is a spell and thus a defined term in 3.5 that suppresses the common definition of the word.
Alter Self want to be like Polymorph but lacks some of the things that spell offers. Shapechange on the other hand is like Polymorph because it offers more options/power.
edit: And Minor Change Shape doesn't qualify as Polymorph like effect.Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2021-01-18 at 02:01 AM.
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2021-01-18, 08:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Does Assume Supernatural Ability only work with polymorph?
Give us rule citations instead of making baseless claims and pretending they're facts.
The very first sentence of the feat says "you learn to use a supernatural ability of an assumed form."
Trying to change that into "you learn to use a supernatural abillity with the polymorph spell" is deliberate misreading of the spell. Polymorph is simply one way to assume a new form.
edit:
Here's the dictionary definition of similar
resembling without being identical.
If you disagree then give me a rule citation that says Wild Shape is not similar to polymorph.Last edited by magicalmagicman; 2021-01-18 at 09:14 AM.
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2021-01-18, 09:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Does Assume Supernatural Ability only work with polymorph?
I have the opposite. Rules Compendium has an entire section about changing forms and Alternate Form, Change Shape, Alter self, Animal Shapes, Baleful Polymorph, Polymorph, Shapechange, A Thousand Faces, and Wild Shape are all in that section together. If that's not the very definition of "similar" then I don't know what is.
You have provided no evidence nor rule citations that this is true. So prove this first before derailing about the consequences of such an interpretation.
Prove that ASA only works with polymorph.
Prove that Alternate Form, Change Shape, Alter Self, Animal Shapes A Thousand Faces, and Wild Shape are not "similar effects" to Baleful Polymorph, Polymorph, and Shapechange.
Give me a rule citation.
Also, I'll point out that A Thousand Faces is identical to Minor Change Shape so Assume Supernatural Ability most definitely does work with Minor Change Shape.Last edited by gogogome; 2021-01-18 at 09:38 AM.
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2021-01-18, 11:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Does Assume Supernatural Ability only work with polymorph?
There are more differences than that. ASA requires you to choose a (Su) to use, and you can only use that one (Su), albeit as often as you want (up to the limits specified in the form you take). You also have to make a save or be unable to use the (Su) at all. MT, however allows you to choose on the fly each time you take a form, and you take no penalties and need not make any saves. ASA also gives you penalties to various things when you use it. MT, however, does not.
Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2021-01-18 at 11:37 AM.
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2021-01-18, 11:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Does Assume Supernatural Ability only work with polymorph?
Uhh, keep in mind that this is a 3.0 spell, and the 3.0 alternate form ability was literally "functions as polymorph", likewise was the druid wild shape. Meanwhile change shape straight up didn't exist as an ability. The doppelganger for example simply has an alter self Su ability (alter self, clearly not being a polymorph effect, since it's alter self not polymorph). The issue with the 3.5 change though was that some creatures that got change shape instead previously had alternate form which was based on polymorph. The succubus for example now has change shape when it used to have alternate form (based on polymorph), while the aforementioned doppelganger ALSO has change shape, when it previously had alter self, so we can't even say which side of the line change shape should fall under.
So, I kinda agree with Troacctid in that it's a 3.0 relic and needs to be properly adapted, and for that to happen, it requires DM decision making.World of Madius wiki - My personal campaign setting, including my homebrew Optional Gestalt/LA rules.
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2021-01-18, 04:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Does Assume Supernatural Ability only work with polymorph?
Don't forget that alter self also worked totally differently and did not properly grant you the form of another creature, instead augmenting your own form with modifications like wings, gills, or extra limbs—so, at the time, it would likely not have been considered similar to polymorph self, even though now, post-update, polymorph actually references alter self!
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2021-01-19, 12:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Does Assume Supernatural Ability only work with polymorph?
&
It is quoted, bold and underlined in the opening post... but I'll point it out for you again..
Benefit
You learn to use a single supernatural ability of another kind of creature while assuming its form through a polymorph self spell or a similar effect.
Polymorph Self (see Polymorph)Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2021-01-19 at 12:22 AM.
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Orko, He-man & Battlecat (a Dragonfire Mount's Ubermount and its Ubermount)
Giant Dwarf, the Rock Superstar (a War Chanter build)
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2021-01-19, 12:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
Re: Does Assume Supernatural Ability only work with polymorph?
Adapted for what? The feat works perfectly fine unmodified in 3.5. The feat isn't demanding a polymorph effect. It's demanding the ability to assume a new form magically. The first line of the feat says it lets you use a Su ability of an assumed form. The prerequisite of the feat is the ability to assume a new form. 3.5 has many ways of assuming a new form magically.
What part of the feat needs to be adapted for 3.5?
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2021-01-19, 06:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Does Assume Supernatural Ability only work with polymorph?
not that there was any ambiguity before, but if rules compendium says all of those things are the same effect then this is really open and shut. and a thousand faces is minor change shape so using minor change shape with assume supernatural ability is also open and shut.
not that there was any ambiguity before. saying wotc intentionally designed feats so that you can grab it without receiving any benefits as your chief reason as to why you should ignore the rest of the feat description to hamfist an additional requirement is such crazy nonsense my raw-or-die dm actually laughed when i showed it to him.
this is open and shut. really.
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2021-01-19, 06:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Does Assume Supernatural Ability only work with polymorph?
There's like a zillion feats that you can meet the prerequisites for while still being incapable of receiving any benefit. Every metamagic feat, for example.
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