Writing into a Spellbook? Cleric

[Delta_tea]

So I borrow my buddy's Wizard spellbook and I start copying spells into my book to support Cleric's Anyspell casting. Here's the confusion; I have several spells that support reading magic, copying normal text, even a Scribe Scroll feat, but nothing that says I can copy a spell into my book like what is described in the Wizard's class description. This gets even weirder when I discover there's only a hand full of classes that write stuff down. I could have sworn there was a reference some where that said if you have a book and magic, you can write and copy. Anyone know where that reference is? Or how to fix this odd problem? Thanks.

[GeoffWatson]

I don't think you can.

You'll have to borrow a wizard's spellbook each time you prepare spells. I suggest looting an enemy wizard's book, or pay your buddy so he can make a "backup" spellbook with your favourite spells.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The core rules don't actually limit scribing spells in a spellbook to spellcasters at all. It's all just skill checks.

The rules compendium, for no discernable reason, added the restriction that only wizards, wu-jen, and a few prestige classes can do so. I strongly advocate outright ignoring that completely unnecessary complication to an otherwise straight-forward process gated behind uncommon skill requirements.

[Delta_tea]

The core rules don't actually limit scribing spells in a spellbook to spellcasters at all. It's all just skill checks.

The rules compendium, for no discernable reason, added the restriction that only wizards, wu-jen, and a few prestige classes can do so. I strongly advocate outright ignoring that completely unnecessary complication to an otherwise straight-forward process gated behind uncommon skill requirements.

Thanks for that reference! Ok so per the Rules Compendium, last page of the book, it doesn't limit the activity by class, it just says spellcaster needs to do spellcraft dc checks. So really that's great news and means anyone can do it.

[Learn34]

No, the Rules Compendium says spellcasters who use spellbooks can add magical writings to their spellbooks. Cleric doesn't use a spellbook, nor does anyspell grant a cleric the ability to record spells*. And the SRD only describes the Wizard as being able to copy spells into a spellbook. The Wu-Jen spellcasting feature explicitly references the Wizard feature (and thus envelopes rulings relevant to Wizard spellcasting class feature). Not sure about other prepared arcane casters, and the Archivist has it's own explicit text.

Everyone's got their own opinion, and IMO it's a valid restriction to limit the creation of spellbooks (which are fundamentally different than scrolls) to the classes which use them. I could maybe see homebrewing a feat to allow for such, but I definitely can't agree with the idea of giving it away for free.

*IF Anyspell had a non-instantaneous duration AND said that one could prepare arcane spells during its duration, I could see some Persist abuse having a role. However, Anyspell instead provides an explicit exception to the normal action economy limits by allowing the caster to peruse a spell book during the casting time.

[Delta_tea]

No, the Rules Compendium says spellcasters who use spellbooks can add magical writings to their spellbooks. Cleric doesn't use a spellbook, nor does anyspell grant a cleric the ability to record spells*. And the SRD only describes the Wizard as being able to copy spells into a spellbook. The Wu-Jen spellcasting feature explicitly references the Wizard feature (and thus envelopes rulings relevant to Wizard spellcasting class feature). Not sure about other prepared arcane casters, and the Archivist has it's own explicit text.

Everyone's got their own opinion, and IMO it's a valid restriction to limit the creation of spellbooks (which are fundamentally different than scrolls) to the classes which use them. I could maybe see homebrewing a feat to allow for such, but I definitely can't agree with the idea of giving it away for free.

*IF Anyspell had a non-instantaneous duration AND said that one could prepare arcane spells during its duration, I could see some Persist abuse having a role. However, Anyspell instead provides an explicit exception to the normal action economy limits by allowing the caster to peruse a spell book during the casting time.

Per Anyspell, Spell Compendium:
"You must have an arcane magical writing (a scroll or spellbook) on hand to cast anyspell. During the spell’s 15-minute casting time, you can scan the spells available and choose one to read and prepare. Once you choose and prepare an arcane spell, you retain it in your mind. The prepared spell occupies your 3rd-level domain spell slot. If you read the spell from a spellbook, the book is unharmed, but reading a spell from a scroll erases the spell from the scroll."

So if someone uses Anyspell, they are a user of a Scroll or Spellbook per the spell description. The category "Spellbook user" was not narrowly defined by the Rule book to specific classes, therefore, I see that as not expressly prohibited (classical interpretation for 3.5 rules), so they default to if the User can read OR write. In this case read is the qualifying activity. Also of note, Anyspell takes the place of a Spellcraft check or needing Read Magic to understand those magical texts for 1-spell.

So 2 conversations. 1) Can a Cleric read a spellbook? The answer is yes through: Read magic, Anyspell, Spellcraft check, etc. 2) Can a Cleric write to a spell book? That's topic I'm focusing on. Agree, Wizards can write to a spellbook along with a limited number of other classes. However, that limitation is not mentioned in the Rules Compendium. Wizard class was defined in PHB 2003, Rules Compendium followed in 2007. In fact the Rules Compendium does not call out ANY specific class as a "spellcaster who use spellbooks". Odd since they could have just limited it by saying Wizard, Class B, Class C, etc. But they didn't list any classes. Then didn't even list Wizard as an example they could point to! They also didn't specifically list Arcane spells, which we know from Archivist can write Divine spells into a Spellbook (Prayer Book). So that really limits us to the verb of "writing" itself. Anyspell specifically calls out Scrolls and Spellbooks. So a quick comparison:

Scribe Scroll: Spell level x Caster level x 25 gp
DMG "A scroll is a spell (or collection of spells) that has been stored in written form."
Actively empowered to function, spell casting components already included

Spellbook New Entry: Spell level x 100 gp (for ink), plus spellbook 15gp, contains 100 pages
Contains text of the spell, not directly cast able, reference material only

Rule Compendium: "Spellcasters who use spellbooks can add a spell to their book whenever they find one on a scroll or in another caster’s spellbook."

I think we can all agree that a Scroll has much more complexity to it than a Spellbook Entry. It is primed to cast its effect with just a trigger, but a Spellbook is just a sheet of paper with some ink on it. Therefore, if one can make a Scroll, they should be capable to write in a book and call it a Spellbook. The Rules Compendium even says the content of a Magical Scroll is enough to add a spell to a spellbook. They both depend on the written text of the spell they document. Also, I don't see it expressly restricted within the rules. Sure, they encourage Wizards to use spell books. But, nowhere does it say others CAN NOT write a spell in a book and call it a Spellbook. The best I could find was in the PHB: "Divine spellcasters do not require spellbooks." But again it doesn't say they can't use one, just that they don't require one.

If I recall, the rules work by expressly calling out limitations. In this case, they do not limit writing and by the wording of the Rules Compendium they seem to encourage it by not writing the word Wizard even once. Therefore, I believe others can write spells in books. Scribe Scroll feat allows recording a spell's text, therefore, it should allow a Cleric (with the feat) to be able to record a spell into a Spellbook.

I know it seems like a long way around. But again, it doesn't actually say no in the books and the Rule Compendium used especially vague language to describe who could make use of this Crafting/Spellcheck ability. Therefore, it looks like its allowed. Not easily, granted.

[DarkSoul]

The rules don't actually say I can't, so I think I can.

No. Copying spells into a spellbook is limited to the classes that are explicitly allowed or required to do so. It's like looking at a picture of the Mona Lisa and trying to duplicate it well enough to sell for more than a few dollars; it might look convincing but won't fool anyone who actually understands what they're looking at.

If you're already borrowing your buddy's spellbook, then just cast Anyspell and forget about everything after that. Saves a lot of headache for everyone involved.

[Darg]

The RC mentions that the copier of a spell must have the spell on their spell list.

[Delta_tea]

The RC mentions that the copier of a spell must have the spell on their spell list.

Yes. So you'd need to prepare a spell slot using Anyspell with a borrowed spellbook. For that brief period of time its in your spell list and you should be able to re-write it into your own spellbook.

[Darg]

Yes. So you'd need to prepare a spell slot using Anyspell with a borrowed spellbook. For that brief period of time its in your spell list and you should be able to re-write it into your own spellbook.

That's not how it works though. Anyspell is providing an exception to allow you to cast the spell. Anyspell does not state that the spell is added to your spell list.