Basic gish optimization

[shipiaozi]

Gish is a character with both martial and spellcasting ability. By this defenition alone, we could know simply combine martial choice and spellcasting choice makes extremely weak gish. A character with 70% martail ability and 70% spellcasting ability can not compete with 100/20 or 20/100 character. To make gish viable, there should be sth very effective for a gish. In 5e, the only two choices are staff-like items(for martial-based gish) and divine smite(for caster-based gish).

Staff are powerful items that allow users to cast certain spells, but casters are not good at use them. Casters usually have silimar spells and concentration used, while non-casters could use quicken spell to replace bonus action attack with powerful spell, or use action surge + double AOE to deal huge AOE damage at begining of the combat. Most non-casters SHOULD multiclass into sorcerer at some point to use staffs, and they should get staffs earlier than casters.

Divine smite build transform spell slots to damage, so this kind of gish would not "attack worse than pure martial and cast spells worse than casters", they spend most of their actions to attack with weapon on par with a pure martial, and seldom cast spells with action. Divine smite build need extra attack, so the popular Sorcerer X/Paladin 2 is a very weak build with no benefits. Although MC sorcerer usually is martials' best choice, it may not true for Paladin, because Paladin don't really need quicken metamagic to use spell slots. In many cases, College of Lore is better than Divine Soul for Paladin.

Good Gish Build Example:
Warrior 11-12/Divine Soul X, Monk X/Warrior 2/Divine Soul Y or Monk X/Hexblade 1, Ranger 6/Divine Soul X
Paladin 6-7/College of Lore or Divine Soul X
Full caster with extra attack X/Paladin 2

Bad Gish Build Example:
Full caster X/Warrior 1-2 or Hexblade, especially bad for BladeSinger
Full caster without extra attack/Paladin 2

[J.C.]

Shipaiozi, I gotta say. I love your posts. Don't ever change.

I see the wisdom in your advocacy of something like Paladin 2/Bladesinger X over alternatives. However, at the end of the day D&D is about solving problems. How do you evaluate Paladin 2/ Bladesinger X vs Paladin 2/Divination X? How indeed do you?

I think the Divination gish is flat out stronger than the Bladesinger gish. Divination brings unique nova and endurance to each matchup. When a match up is do or die the Divination gish has what it takes to turn the tide. It has the ability to steal turns and change fate when it counts by throwing Portent Die and Lucky points at it. The key skill for a Divination based gish is to learn when to throw everything you have at a problem so the party can survive and when to hold back so that others may shine.

What do you think? I value your input more than anyone else on this forum. Ha ha, but seriously I value your input. Is Divination Wizard an exception to the heuristics you have set forth?

[shipiaozi]

Shipaiozi, I gotta say. I love your posts. Don't ever change.

I see the wisdom in your advocacy of something like Paladin 2/Bladesinger X over alternatives. However, at the end of the day D&D is about solving problems. How do you evaluate Paladin 2/ Bladesinger X vs Paladin 2/Divination X? How indeed do you?

I think the Divination gish is flat out stronger than the Bladesinger gish. Divination brings unique nova and endurance to each matchup. When a match up is do or die the Divination gish has what it takes to turn the tide. It has the ability to steal turns and change fate when it counts by throwing Portent Die and Lucky points at it. The key skill for a Divination based gish is to learn when to throw everything you have at a problem so the party can survive and when to hold back so that others may shine.

What do you think? I value your input more than anyone else on this forum. Ha ha, but seriously I value your input. Is Divination Wizard an exception to the heuristics you have set forth?

Usually Divination is stronger than bladesinger, but divine smite change the game. Bladesinger need action to cast spells so invest on melee ability usually not worth it, at least not rewarding. However, Bladesinger X/Paladin 2 could invest on melee and attack in most turns. Divination wizard, like Divine Soul, have great class ability but no extra attack, which is extremley important for a gish to have viable physical ability.

[XmonkTad]

Why bladesinger over something like a Valor Bard? If getting extra attack is that big a deal, and we're combining it with paladin, why not get it from a full casting class that already has charisma synergy?

[LordShade]

@Xmonk - shipiaozi didn't say Paladin 2/Bladesinger was the only build--that just happens to be one that is frequently recommended on forums when someone asks "what should I play? I rolled really high stats".

I agree that Paladin 2/Swords or Valor is better than BS in a point buy scenario. I also agree with Shipiaozi in that I think the Pal 2/Sorc X build is overrated in general, but I think he neglects that Booming Blade+Quickened Booming Blade is 8d8+10=46 damage using a longsword without smites, where a 6/14 build using EA would do 2d8+10+4d8+5= 42 damage but a 50% higher chance to land a crit smite (and better scaling with magic weapons, and these damage totals reflect a level 17 Booming Blade). I feel he's underestimating the value of a Quickened Booming Blade--at the cost of 2 sorcery points, you get an extra 4d8+5 damage. That's better than the return you get on burning slots for smites at high levels for sure, and it also stacks with smites for even faster damage output. Furthermore, I take his point about a 100/20 character being better than a 70/70 character, but I'd argue that the 2/18 build actually is a 100/20 character--at high levels, this is a full spellcaster with heavy armor that can wade into melee when it wants to.

I think the real advantage of Swords/Valor/BS is that you can get EA while keeping full progression, where most classes that get EA have 3-5 levels of dead casting progression in order to get there.

@shipiaozi - in your experience, is it a high certainty that magical staves will drop as loot? I find it hard to plan a build that only works if a certain item drops. As a player, if I could guarantee that I'd get my hands on a top-end staff, I'd definitely go for a Gandalf build and go whack some orcs and goblin-men with a dual-wielded sword and staff.

Also, can you explain how the Monk builds work? What's the value of Hexblade 1/Monk X, and Fighter/Monk/Divine Soul?

The EK 11/Sorc X build is a popular one that has been around for a while.

[shipiaozi]

Why bladesinger over something like a Valor Bard? If getting extra attack is that big a deal, and we're combining it with paladin, why not get it from a full casting class that already has charisma synergy?

1. All Full caster with extra attack are viable, bladesinger and sword bard are strongest while Valor Bard is a little bit weak.

2. Pal2 don't have charisma synergy other than 13cha multiclass requirement, which means bladesinger would lost 2 CON, but the subclass gain extra damage from blade cantrip, the ability to use staff, then +3 weapon damage in late game. Meanwhile, Valor Bard's subclass ability are mostly wasted.

@Xmonk - shipiaozi didn't say Paladin 2/Bladesinger was the only build--that just happens to be one that is frequently recommended on forums when someone asks "what should I play? I rolled really high stats".

I agree that Paladin 2/Swords or Valor is better than BS in a point buy scenario. I also agree with Shipiaozi in that I think the Pal 2/Sorc X build is overrated in general, but I think he neglects that Booming Blade+Quickened Booming Blade is 8d8+10=46 damage using a longsword without smites, where a 6/14 build using EA would do 2d8+10+4d8+5= 42 damage but a 50% higher chance to land a crit smite (and better scaling with magic weapons, and these damage totals reflect a level 17 Booming Blade). I feel he's underestimating the value of a Quickened Booming Blade--at the cost of 2 sorcery points, you get an extra 4d8+5 damage. That's better than the return you get on burning slots for smites at high levels for sure, and it also stacks with smites for even faster damage output. Furthermore, I take his point about a 100/20 character being better than a 70/70 character, but I'd argue that the 2/18 build actually is a 100/20 character--at high levels, this is a full spellcaster with heavy armor that can wade into melee when it wants to.

I think the real advantage of Swords/Valor/BS is that you can get EA while keeping full progression, where most classes that get EA have 3-5 levels of dead casting progression in order to get there.

@shipiaozi - in your experience, is it a high certainty that magical staves will drop as loot? I find it hard to plan a build that only works if a certain item drops. As a player, if I could guarantee that I'd get my hands on a top-end staff, I'd definitely go for a Gandalf build and go whack some orcs and goblin-men with a dual-wielded sword and staff.

Also, can you explain how the Monk builds work? What's the value of Hexblade 1/Monk X, and Fighter/Monk/Divine Soul?

The EK 11/Sorc X build is a popular one that has been around for a while.

1. Don't use longsword to compare damage, in most cases player use hand crossbow, two-hand reach weapon or staff+shield.

2. I do think non-casters usually should get staff at certain point of the adventure, but ofc it depends on your DM. Staff is not enough to make Gish good, usually melee character also need strength item.

3. Monk need armor and staff