Tasha's Custom Lineage + Moderately Armored

[da newt]

Just a thought (and I'm sure I'm far from the first to think of it), but one benefit of Tasha's Custom Lineage is to boost the light armor proficient classes with Moderately Armored for the half feat plus medium armor and shield proficiency.

I'd figure this could be especially handy for bards and rogues, but are there any other handy uses of this sort of buff?


I guess also Heavily Armored for the Med Armor classes ...

[LordShade]

I think Moderately Armored is a good feat, flat out. Taking Custom Lineage and +1 Dex+medium armor, +2 Cha on a Bard sounds like a very solid single-class build.

For a rogue, you're probably maxing Dex anyway and possibly dual-wielding so Moderately armored loses a lot of its value.

The third use-case would be a non-Hexblade warlock, but I'm not sure if those exist in 5e. The only other class I can think of that gets light armor and only light armor is a Bladesinger, but you can't take the subclass until level 2 so you wouldn't qualify for MA at level 1.

[Unoriginal]

The third use-case would be a non-Hexblade warlock, but I'm not sure if those exist in 5e.

They do. Nothing wrong with them.

[Greywander]

Hexblade seems to be mostly a melee/gish subclass. If you're blasting with EB, any other patron is viable. What's surprising to me is that Hexblade is also viable for EB builds.

So yeah, plenty of warlocks can benefit from Moderately Armored, though a cleric dip is usually my favorite way to get medium armor + shields. Peace cleric might be the new Hexblade.

[diplomancer]

Moderately Armored is a weird feat; by itself, if you are a candidate for it (i.e, you're a Bard, Rogue, Warlock, Bladesinger), it's very good, though better for Bards and Warlocks than for Rogues and Bladesingers. It can easily give you the equivalent of +4 AC, which can become even more once you factor in magical shields. That's a LOT.

On the other hand, it's also a feat that can be replicated with a 1 level dip; it has the disadvantage of delaying your class progression, but you usually get more than the advantages of the feat from it with the "usual" multiclasses (cleric and hexblade, most of the time).

So, it's a feat that becomes a lot better in a "no multiclass" game, or if for some reason you cannot justify your character taking these dips.

Now, I'd say that it was a better feat to take as a V. Human than it is with the Custom Lineage; starting with 17 Cha, 16 (or 14) dex and Moderately Armored as a Bard or Warlock can't really compare with starting with an 18 Cha and Fey Touched, or even Actor, unless you are going to be a frontliner; but if you ARE going to be a frontliner as a Bard or Warlock you are almost certainly picking the subclasses that give you medium armor proficiency.

Having written all this, I now realize that, unlike what I expected, the combination is actually best for Rogues; you start with 18 dex and a shield. Put a 12 on Str (or 14 if you can afford it) and Expertise athletics, get Shield Master at 4, and go to town.

[LudicSavant]

Just a thought (and I'm sure I'm far from the first to think of it), but one benefit of Tasha's Custom Lineage is to boost the light armor proficient classes with Moderately Armored for the half feat plus medium armor and shield proficiency.

I'd figure this could be especially handy for bards and rogues, but are there any other handy uses of this sort of buff?


I guess also Heavily Armored for the Med Armor classes ...

Moderately armored is a good feat, but Heavily Armored generally isn’t (no shield proficiency).

[da newt]

Agree - the shield proff is a big part of the Moderately Armored feat's draw, but (I think) all med armor proff classes also get shield proff, and the Heavy Armored feat allow for ST builds to dump Dex (if they so choose).

[Willie the Duck]

On the other hand, it's also a feat that can be replicated with a 1 level dip; it has the disadvantage of delaying your class progression, but you usually get more than the advantages of the feat from it with the "usual" multiclasses (cleric and hexblade, most of the time).

So, it's a feat that becomes a lot better in a "no multiclass" game, or if for some reason you cannot justify your character taking these dips.

There are huge swaths of the game that can be obviated by low-level dips. IMO clearly the designers either thought no-MC gaming would be common, that groups would put the kibosh on unthematic 'strictly done for mechanical benefits' selection, or didn't care.

[Arkhios]

The third use-case would be a non-Hexblade warlock, but I'm not sure if those exist in 5e.

They do. Nothing wrong with them.

I'd play a non-hexblade, especially without Eldritch Blast purely out of spite for people yammering about how you're allegedly playing it wrong if you don't have it. I know it works just fine without.

[Spiritchaser]

I have a genie bladelock on mind and I think this feat might be very well suited, though I’m probably just as likely to go with a 1 level dip instead.

We’ll see.

[Anymage]

Hobgoblin wizards were already a known build for a while, thanks in part to the racial light armor. Upgrading light armor to medium is a decent feat, even if you put it off to a different ASI instead of sinking your race into getting it right off the bat. For that matter, vhuman could pull it off right out of the PHB.

I do think it's worth breaking this into "is Moderately Armored a good feat for a lot of classes?", and "is getting Moderately Armored right out the gate instead of putting it off 'till 4th worth sinking your whole race into?" The answer to the first is a clear yes. The second is more arguable, and again custom lineage isn't bringing much that vhuman wasn't doing before.

[diplomancer]

Hobgoblin wizards were already a known build for a while, thanks in part to the racial light armor. Upgrading light armor to medium is a decent feat, even if you put it off to a different ASI instead of sinking your race into getting it right off the bat. For that matter, vhuman could pull it off right out of the PHB.

I do think it's worth breaking this into "is Moderately Armored a good feat for a lot of classes?", and "is getting Moderately Armored right out the gate instead of putting it off 'till 4th worth sinking your whole race into?" The answer to the first is a clear yes. The second is more arguable, and again custom lineage isn't bringing much that vhuman wasn't doing before.

There are 2 things custom lineage does that's different from a V. Human
1- It allows you to start with an 18 Dex (or Str, but that would be a pretty rare use case). Of the classes that would want to get this feat, the one that benefits the most from this is, undoubtedly, the Rogue. All others are caster classes and it would also be a rare caster build that starts with 18 Dex and 15 or 14 casting stat. It's also better than V. Humans for Rogues because you can also switch one skill for darkvision, which is probably a good deal for a Rogue. Finally, you can be small; as Rogues usually use Finesse weapons, being small might let you get a cheap medium mount, without the disadvantage of not wielding heavy weapons well. It also would let you squeeze into places that bigger creatures couldn't get in, also useful for scouting. I have no idea how useful being small actually is, but definitely having that choice is a small improvement in versatility.

2- For the Caster classes, it allows you to have a 17 in your casting stat and start with Medium -armored, in case you are planning on taking a half-feat that raises your prime later. I have serious doubts whether it's not better to do it the other way around (start with 18 in your prime with the half-feat, get medium armored later, either dipping or through the feat).

[Greywander]

I'd play a non-hexblade, especially without Eldritch Blast purely out of spite for people yammering about how you're allegedly playing it wrong if you don't have it. I know it works just fine without.

The issue is that a typical caster usually has a leveled spell they can cast that would be more effective than any cantrip, whereas warlocks simply don't have enough spell slots to do this. A warlock really needs a sustained at-will option to stay competitive, and EB is really the only option they have. It's not just about damage, Repelling Blast (and other invocations) is a useful way to control the battlefield and place your enemies into inconvenient (for them) positions. If you really want to make a non-EB, non-melee warlock, Celestial is your best bet, as you get Sacred Flame for free as well as a free damage boost. My worry is that it simply wouldn't be fun to play a warlock without something like EB; it would be sort of like using a non-finesse melee weapon on a rogue.

Something that I think would be really cool is if you could take any attack cantrip and "EB-ify" it. Instead of the damage simply increasing, it would shoot an extra "beam" like EB does. All of the EB invocations would have their equivalent for your new cantrip, adding your CHA mod to the damage roll of each beam, knocking creatures back, pulling them in, slowing them down, or extending the spell's range. For example, Thorn Whip would be a fun one to do this with, since it already has a pull effect. Chill Touch (which is on the warlock list) would also be a solid alternative to EB if it had split beams and benefited from EB invocations. Ray of Frost would be another fun one, thanks to the speed decrease.

[Witty Username]

Lets see we got, Bard, Rogue and Warlock?
If you are going any bard but Valor this could be good, if you are going martial you may be better off with a level in hexblade so you can get green-flame blade or booming blade along with medium armor and shield proficiency. But if you are more of a caster type, then you may appreciate not losing a level of spell progression.
I am skeptical of rogue, you can use strength as a rogue which would necessitate this for your AC needs but that would probably be because you are doing something rather specific. (like maybe expertise in athletics thief, doing a lot of climbing and shoving).
Non-hexblade, warlock could use this. If you are making a martial character I would still recommend hexblade but otherwise this is a way to get the survivability of the hexblade without sacrificing a patron pick that better fits your concept.

I guess also Heavily Armored for the Med Armor classes ...

I wouldn't recommend heavily armored, having a 14 dex is not hard, and if you do it is +1 AC someday. I think the best case do this is on a Strength Ranger that is needing a good wisdom score. That way you can drop dex to 10 without issue which can give point by more breathing room. However, You can get about the same with any half-feat in Dex,Con, or Wis unless you want to Pump Str to 18.

[Tanarii]

I wouldn't recommend heavily armored, having a 14 dex is not hard, and if you do it is +1 AC someday.

Dex 14 vs Dex 8 is 7 point buy points that could be used elsewhere. It's not a matter of "not hard" so much as a matter of if you're going Str anyway.

The bigger factor is there are limited Medium armor classes that might want high Str and dump Dex at level 1. Rangers are really it. Maybe Trickery Clerics.

[Arkhios]

The issue is that a typical caster usually has a leveled spell they can cast that would be more effective than any cantrip, whereas warlocks simply don't have enough spell slots to do this. A warlock really needs a sustained at-will option to stay competitive, and EB is really the only option they have. It's not just about damage, Repelling Blast (and other invocations) is a useful way to control the battlefield and place your enemies into inconvenient (for them) positions. If you really want to make a non-EB, non-melee warlock, Celestial is your best bet, as you get Sacred Flame for free as well as a free damage boost. My worry is that it simply wouldn't be fun to play a warlock without something like EB; it would be sort of like using a non-finesse melee weapon on a rogue.

Something that I think would be really cool is if you could take any attack cantrip and "EB-ify" it. Instead of the damage simply increasing, it would shoot an extra "beam" like EB does. All of the EB invocations would have their equivalent for your new cantrip, adding your CHA mod to the damage roll of each beam, knocking creatures back, pulling them in, slowing them down, or extending the spell's range. For example, Thorn Whip would be a fun one to do this with, since it already has a pull effect. Chill Touch (which is on the warlock list) would also be a solid alternative to EB if it had split beams and benefited from EB invocations. Ray of Frost would be another fun one, thanks to the speed decrease.

Well, I didn't say I would make a non-melee warlock (in fact, under the topic's premise, using custom lineage with moderately armored and both medium armor and shield, a melee warlock would be quite obvious).

[Willie the Duck]

Well, I didn't say I would make a non-melee warlock (in fact, under the topic's premise, using custom lineage with moderately armored and both medium armor and shield, a melee warlock would be quite obvious).

I've been playing a Moderately Armored feat melee celestial warlock for quite some time now. It works wonderfully. Sacred flame for emergency ranged combat, and all my cantrips and invocations are free for all the fun wacky goodness that makes them actually distinct.

[KorvinStarmast]

There are huge swaths of the game that can be obviated by low-level dips. IMO clearly the designers either thought no-MC gaming would be common, that groups would put the kibosh on unthematic 'strictly done for mechanical benefits' selection, or didn't care.

I'll go with the last one, which I bolded, based on Crawford's frequent 'follow your bliss' encouragement in his tweets.

[Verble]

Moderately armored is great on a celestial Warlock. You get some healing and decent AC in addition to EB.