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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Thurbane's Avatar

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    Default [3.5] Stone to Flesh / Lifeless Body

    So, you cast Stone to Flesh on a human-shaped statue, and you end up with a corpse.

    The spell also can convert a mass of stone into a fleshy substance. Such flesh is inert and lacking a vital life force unless a life force or magical energy is available. (For example, this spell would turn a stone golem into a flesh golem, but an ordinary statue would become a corpse.) You can affect an object that fits within a cylinder from 1 foot to 3 feet in diameter and up to 10 feet long or a cylinder of up to those dimensions in a larger mass of stone.
    What can you do with this corpse, that was never actually alive?

    I guess you could Animate Dead - the result would be a Human Zombie, I suppose?

    What happens if you cast Raise Dead on it? Anything?

    What RAW methods exist to add a "vital force" or soul to this corpse?

    Just curious what can be done with this, without requiring house ruling or home brewing.

    Cheers - T

  2. - Top - End - #2
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    Default Re: [3.5] Stone to Flesh / Lifeless Body

    Glad to see I sparked some ideas.

    Originally Posted by Thurbane
    I guess you could Animate Dead - the result would be a Human Zombie, I suppose?

    What happens if you cast Raise Dead on it? Anything?
    I would rule that neither of these spells has any effect, since the "corpse" was never alive. It's fairly clear-cut for the second spell, since the statue never had a soul, and thus there is no soul to return to the artificial corpse. By the text, the spell would fail.

    For the first one, I would argue that the artificial corpse was never alive, thus doesn't qualify for animation. But in this case I simply flat-out disagree with the spell text. As you quoted, the text directly states that a statue would become a corpse, but a body has complex internal structures (organs, skeleton, etc.) which simply wouldn't be present in a typical statue, which is still whatever stone the sculptor's block was quarried from.

    So in this case, I would argue that the "corpse" is simply an undifferentiated mass of flesh, which has the same shape as the statue but none of the internal structures required to make a body. This could possibly be animated, but without muscles or skeleton it wouldn't be able to do much. Again, I recognize this contradicts the spell text, but in this case I don't think that line was very well-thought-out.

    As for adding a soul, presumably Trap the Soul would be the first step, perhaps in conjunction with Reincarnate.

    .
    Last edited by Palanan; 2021-01-19 at 03:26 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
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    Default Re: [3.5] Stone to Flesh / Lifeless Body

    It's a corpse of a statue, not of a creature. Raise dead requires a dead creature, not simply inert flesh. Animate dead requires the corpse to have bones at the very least, but the corpse is simply flesh without bones as bones are not flesh.

    Adding a vital force to a statue turned flesh simply implants a soul into inert flesh. You would have to design the statue as a golem or other automata that is designed to not be inert for it to do anything.

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    confused Re: [3.5] Stone to Flesh / Lifeless Body

    So the consensus seems to be that despite the spell specifically calling out that it can create a corpse (and that it is theoretically possible to imbue the created flesh with life force), it's not truly a corpse, but a human shaped blob of flesh?

    Maybe if you "add life force" you get a Flesh Jelly?


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    Default Re: [3.5] Stone to Flesh / Lifeless Body

    Maybe you could use your brand new corpse as the material component for simulacrum. Or perhaps via dissection you could gain sufficient familiarity for polymorph.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Stone to Flesh / Lifeless Body

    You could maybe bring it to life as a person by way of wish or miracle. Though I'd argue you could do that without stone-to-flesh, essentially wishing the statue to become a living person directly.
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    But there's more to good worldbuilding than piling the "parts to game in" on a big pile.

    Farmland isn't there to be adventured in, primarily, but one assumes it's still there and part of the landscape -- just because adventurers don't go there often doesn't mean it doesn't or shouldn't or needn't exist.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Stone to Flesh / Lifeless Body

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    Animate dead requires the corpse to have bones at the very least, but the corpse is simply flesh without bones as bones are not flesh.
    For a skeleton, yes. For a zombie, no. It only requires a true anatomy. Whatever that means.

    But that's mostly not relevant. The flesh blob interpretation disregards the immediate examples. Both of the sample results have extensive components that are not strictly 'flesh' and are not components of the inputs. A stone golem has no brain or bones or organs, but a flesh golem explicitly requires a brain, some internal organs, and all the 3.5 depictions I've seen clearly have skeletons. Similarly, I would find it frankly bizarre for a mass of just meat with no internal organs, bones, or structure to be referred to as a 'corpse'.

    And of course, the primary use of flesh to stone is to turn petrified creatures, whose bones are obviously also petrified, back into regular people. I reject the idea that the spell is incapable of fashioning bone considering that all examples of its usage result in something that does possess bones(and other assorted bits of organ that are not strictly 'flesh').

    Remember that 'fleshy' is not an exclusive term, when something is -y it features that thing prominently but not exclusively. Beer is watery when it mostly tastes like water, beer that is only composed of water is...water. A regular corpse is mostly composed of flesh, and therefore meets the definition of 'fleshy substance' just fine.

    So considering that the term 'fleshy substance' does not exclude a regular corpse complete with internal anatomy, and all the sample usages of the spell indicate something that would have an internal anatomy, I'm going with the interpretation that such a thing does have bones, organs, and the like.

    Of course having a skeleton is not sufficient for either spell, since while animate dead targets a corpse, the first line of the spell is:
    This spell turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow your spoken commands.
    And of course, the target of raise dead is 'dead creature touched.

    3.5 does not redefine the term 'corpse', so you have to ask whether or not 'corpse' and 'dead creature' are synonyms. I'd personally contest that they are close enough, and the spell itself seems to indicate that there should be methods to breathe life into corpses created with stone to flesh. I say have at it.
    Last edited by Zanos; 2021-01-19 at 11:23 PM.
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    Question Re: [3.5] Stone to Flesh / Lifeless Body

    So, assuming that we acknowledge that the spell creates an actual corpse from a statue (which I must say I agree with), rather than a humanoid-shaped blob of flesh - what can be done with this corpse?

    If it is a true corpse, then it is a valid target for Animate Dead, Create Undead etc.

    As it was never alive, it is most likely not a valid target for raise Dead, Resurrection etc.

    What else can be done with the corpse?

    The spell text indicates that there may be some way of infusing it with vital force/life, and/or a soul. Some sort of body swap magic? Is there spells that allow you to inhabit/possess a corpse?

    Here's a thread I made a while back: Spells That Target/Affect Corpses:

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    • Animate Dead (PHB) Adp 3, Bighter 4, Clr 3, DD 3, DM 3, DN 4, Death 3, Sor/Wiz 4, Undeath 3, Wu 4
    • Animate Dead Familiar (online) Sor/Wiz 5
    • Animate Dread Warrior (UE) Sor/Wiz 6
    • Animate Legion (HoB) Clr 4, Spr/Wiz 5
    • Animate With the Spirit (CoV) Sanctified 4
    • Barghest's Feast (SC) Clr 6, Death 6, DN 6, Evil 6, Sha'ir 6, Sor/Wiz 7, Undeath 6
    • Burial Blessing (DotF) Clr 1
    • Charnel Fire (BoVD) Clr 5
    • Cocoon (SC) Drd 8
    • Create Deathless (ECS) Deathless 6
    • Create Greater Deathless (ECS) Deathless 8
    • Create Greater Undead (PHB) Clr 8, Death 8, DM 8, DN 8, Sha'ir 8, Sor/Wiz 8, Undeath 8
    • Create Undead (PHB) Blighter 5, Clr 6, DM 5, Sor/Wiz 6
    • Death Grimace (BoVD) Ass 1, Blk 1, Sor/Wiz 1
    • Gentle Repose (PHB) Clr 2, DB 2, DM 2, DN 2, Healer 2, Sav 2, SoD 2, Sha'ir 3, Sor/Wiz 3, Time 2
    • Last Breath (SC) Drd 4
    • Persuade to Manifest (Ghostwalk) Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 3
    • Plague of Undead (HoH) Clr 9, DN 9, Sor/Wiz 9
    • Raise Dead (PHB) Adp 5, Clr 5, DB 6, Healer 5
    • Raise Ghost (Ghostwalk) Clr 4
    • Reanimation (CArc) Wu 7
    • Rejuvenative Corpse (SC) Clr 3
    • Reincarnate (SC) Drd 4, Renewal 4
    • Reveille (SC) Brd 2
    • Revenance (SC) Blk 4, Brd 6, Clr 4, Pal 4
    • Revive Outsider (SC) Clr 6
    • Revive Undead (SC) Sor/Wiz 6, Deathbound 5
    • Revivify (SC) Clr 5
    • Secure Corpse (BoED) Clr 6
    • Soul Bind (PHB) Clr 9, DM 9, Sha'ir 9, Sor/Wiz 9
    • Speak With Dead (PHB) Clr 3, DB 4, DD 3, DM 3, DN 3, HotD 3, Pact 3, Retribution 3, Sav 3, SoD 3, UD 3, Wu 6
    • True Reincarnate (MotW) Drd 9

    • Dust to Dust (RotW) Clr 4
    • Expose the Dead (SC) Clr 2, Pal 2, Sor/Wiz 2

  9. - Top - End - #9
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    Default Re: [3.5] Stone to Flesh / Lifeless Body

    Animate with the Spirit calls the spirit of a good-aligned outsider to inhabit a corpse, but there are some tricky aspects to the application.

    The key assumption of the spell is that the corpse is treated as if "still alive," but the statue-corpse was never alive. This runs into mechanical difficulties: the corpse uses the outsider's values for the mental stats, but the corpse "regains the Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, hit points, and innate abilities of the creature the corpse represented when it was alive."

    The trouble here is that the statue-corpse never had any of these, because it was just a lump of stone cut into a specific shape. It never had any innate abilities to begin with, because it was never alive.

    Now, if you absolutely wanted to make this work, you could use standard stats for the race, average hit points, etc. etc., but to me that violates the spirit of the spell. Animate with the Spirit clearly expects a specific corpse of a specific individual, and the statue-corpse never was such.

    I expect there are similar issues with assumptions for most of the other spells you've compiled. (Which is an impressive list, by the way.) Revive Undead assumes the target is "an undead creature destroyed by hit point loss," which doesn't apply in this case. Rejuvenative Corpse might work, but all it does is heal an undead and give it fast healing, which doesn't do much for the statue-corpse itself. Last Breath specifically calls a spirit back to the body it just departed, so not applicable here. Most of these spells are probably too specific to be applied in this particular case.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Stone to Flesh / Lifeless Body

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    So, assuming that we acknowledge that the spell creates an actual corpse from a statue (which I must say I agree with), rather than a humanoid-shaped blob of flesh - what can be done with this corpse?
    Taking this direction, use a spell to create a statue mimicking your disintegrated party member, stone to flesh, raise dead, and enjoy your party member with a new body.

    Or, you can craft yourself a younger body using the method above, cast magic jar and transfer to the new body, have raise dead cast, cast magic Jar again and transfer to the old body. The first cast ended when you returned to your body and when the second cast ends you return to the new raised body as your brand spanking new young primary body. The best part is that you don't fight over the body with someone else, so no will save.

    Magic jar only requires a body, it never says it has to be inhabited or living.
    Last edited by Darg; 2021-01-20 at 08:13 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Stone to Flesh / Lifeless Body

    As far as I am concerned, if one of my players tried to animate the lump of flesh created by Stone to Flesh, I'd treat the lump of flesh as if it had a single HD of the Humanoid type, with the augmented subtype. They are able to train into a class after that, if they like. They'd probably have straight average stats (10's and 11's).

    Quote Originally Posted by Humanoid Type, d20srd
    A humanoid usually has two arms, two legs, and one head, or a humanlike torso, arms, and a head. Humanoids have few or no supernatural or extraordinary abilities, but most can speak and usually have well-developed societies. They usually are Small or Medium. Every humanoid creature also has a subtype.

    Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class. Humanoids of this sort are presented as 1st-level warriors, which means that they have average combat ability and poor saving throws.

    Humanoids with more than 1 Hit Die are the only humanoids who make use of the features of the humanoid type.
    Features

    A humanoid has the following features (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

    8-sided Hit Dice, or by character class.
    Base attack bonus equal to ¾ total Hit Dice (as cleric).
    Good Reflex saves (usually; a humanoid’s good save varies).
    Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, or by character class.

    Traits

    A humanoid possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

    Proficient with all simple weapons, or by character class.
    Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, or by character class. If a humanoid does not have a class and wears armor, it is proficient with that type of armor and all lighter types. Humanoids not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Humanoids are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
    Humanoids breathe, eat, and sleep.

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