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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Is the roleplay aspect of D&D gone, replaced by optimization?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pelle View Post
    If you don't find balanced tactical combats fun, there's no point in playing 5e over a more simple OSR game.
    Serious question: ARE there simpler OSR games? 5e is the simplest edition of D&D I've ever seen. Even the old, old-school editions were, despite having fewer knobs, far more complicated due to klunkier gameplay rules technology, to my recollection. 3e and 5e are refinements and streamlines on their basic engines to the point that they are simpler.

    Are there OSR games that are genuinely simpler, still?

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Is the roleplay aspect of D&D gone, replaced by optimization?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Serious question: ARE there simpler OSR games? 5e is the simplest edition of D&D I've ever seen. Even the old, old-school editions were, despite having fewer knobs, far more complicated due to klunkier gameplay rules technology, to my recollection. 3e and 5e are refinements and streamlines on their basic engines to the point that they are simpler.

    Are there OSR games that are genuinely simpler, still?
    That's my impression as well. 2e, for instance, has way more rules complexity despite having fewer knobs and dials for characters. Everything has different, incompatible systems, assumptions, and procedures, plus tables tables everywhere. To me, personally, this feels like pointless complexity. But YMMV.

    5e has (relatively) more content, but that content is simpler to apply and more modular (you can cut out or add selective races, classes, feats, and spells without breaking anything in particular).
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Is the roleplay aspect of D&D gone, replaced by optimization?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    This doesn't really support your argument. Picking a spear instead of a sword isn't being "flawed" or "eccentric". Neither is wanting to use a fighting style that isn't a two-handed or archery, or any other choice the game makes weaker. And it has nothing to do with Han Solo, a movie character as opposed to an RPG character.
    To phrase it bluntly, (though with no ill will or intent to anger or offend), if your view is that only Two Handed or Archery based warriors can meaningfully contribute to a D&D game, out of all the martial possibilities, then respectfully our viewpoints of the game are so wildly divergent that neither party is going to feel the other has the "right view".

    So for purposes of this discussion, I disagree with your premises.
    This might be a misperception on my part, (and you have my apologies if it is), but the tone of your posts, conveys a lack of receptivity to other viewpoints.

    Further attempts at explication, might lead to antagonism, which is the last thing I want. So please, Be Well...unfortunately...we disagree...and will have to leave the matter there.

    I appreciate the conversation, and your representation of your viewpoint. Cheers!
    Last edited by Thunderous Mojo; 2021-01-21 at 12:25 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Is the roleplay aspect of D&D gone, replaced by optimization?

    I'm not sure I fully understand the nature of your dilemma. While I can tell that you'd much rather favor roleplay over optimization, what about D&D is forcing you to prioritize optimization over roleplay? If you feel that you're cornered into doing that, that's the first thing I'd look for. Is it the players you play with, who optimize and make your character feel obsolete if you aren't similarly built? Is it the DM, who leans too heavily into the numbers gaming for your tastes and not into the roleplay?

    5e, at it's core, is an extremely versatile system. You can play it any way you'd like, favoring Roleplay, or Optimization, or Interaction, or Storytelling, or whatever you'd like. The system does not pressure one way or another, the pressure you're feeling likely comes from an adjacent source.
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    Default Re: Is the roleplay aspect of D&D gone, replaced by optimization?

    It's because talking about roleplaying often kind of sucks, but actually roleplaying is really fun.

    Conversely, talking about optimization is fun, but (for players) it only relates to a tiny portion of the game (character creation and levelling).

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    Default Re: Is the roleplay aspect of D&D gone, replaced by optimization?

    Am I understanding correctly that your evidence is online discussion and videos? Because I see plenty of roleplay "at the table", far more than optimization.

    Mostly, what would roleplay discussion look like online? There's little universal or mechanical stuff to discuss to it. We all can agree "getting 22 attacks in 1 round is crazy, here's how I got the rules to do this" but "is my dwarf dwarfy enough" entirely depends on the DM/world/personal beliefs of the people at the table. Some suggestions can be spitballed but it's much less contentious than optimizing a system.
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    Default Re: Is the roleplay aspect of D&D gone, replaced by optimization?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nagog View Post
    I'm not sure I fully understand the nature of your dilemma. While I can tell that you'd much rather favor roleplay over optimization, what about D&D is forcing you to prioritize optimization over roleplay? If you feel that you're cornered into doing that, that's the first thing I'd look for. Is it the players you play with, who optimize and make your character feel obsolete if you aren't similarly built? Is it the DM, who leans too heavily into the numbers gaming for your tastes and not into the roleplay?

    5e, at it's core, is an extremely versatile system. You can play it any way you'd like, favoring Roleplay, or Optimization, or Interaction, or Storytelling, or whatever you'd like. The system does not pressure one way or another, the pressure you're feeling likely comes from an adjacent source.
    Except the main prompts the game does a good job of pushing are killing things to take their stuff, and finding your way to places where you can do the former. RP and storytelling can be done; the rules don’t prohibit them, but neither do the rules provide a lot in the way of structure or suggestions.
    If all rules are suggestions what happens when I pass the save?

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    Default Re: Is the roleplay aspect of D&D gone, replaced by optimization?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schwann145 View Post
    I'm a big fan of what 5E is capable of offering to D&D, but if we're being totally honest, I've never seen it actualized. Every forum, youtube video, online or otherwise game, seems to be far more concerned about what is "the best" than what makes for an interesting shared narrative. Which spells you can ignore, which feats are mandatory, which class combinations produce the best results, etc... Doesn't it get tiring?
    so, firstly, i'd recommend looking at Matt Colvilles youtube channel. he's got quite a backlog but by no means is his focus on mechanics. overall his attitude is that a mechanically powerful character isn't necessary to have fun. Nor is does it harm fun to have a mechanically powerful character. He gives a lot of advice about how to run games, but very little of it is about the mechanics of the game. primarily he focuses on table dynamics and when he does touch on mechanics, its never from a school of thought that centers on optimization. in fact, at his tables he doesn't give the players feats as straight up character options. instead opting to award those abilities, the same way you might award treasure. Seth Skorkowsky is another good channel if you don't want to focus on optimization. i can't speak too much for the communities surrounding these people due to not really being plugged in with the community in a while. but i know when i first discovered them the community was pretty good about distinguishing between optimization and other character things (for matt colville).

    How does one combat this without abandoning the game altogether?
    There are 2 ways a person/character ends up feeling inadequate. internal and external.

    internal is...a bit too nuanced for me to go into..sorry, if i knew a bit more about your situation, your group...basically if we were able to have a conversation then i might be able to discuss internal problems but there's just way too much for me to list all the variables here

    . but external causes typically focus on part dynamic. what your particular group values. im currently in a roleplay heavy game using 5e and its working just fine. because the entire group is committed to it. we all know what we expect. so, typically if the group has a different set of expectations/playstyle you have 2 options. either adapt to match the group (if thats something you can have fun with) or find a group that matches you better. which isn't all that easy, necessarily. But its really the only way to find what you're looking for.

    is it time I just left D&D behind for other systems that don't cater so much to min/maxing?
    here's the thing. 5e doens't cater to min/maxing. or more specifically, officail 5e content doesn't tend to cater to min/maxing. obviously a min/maxed character is always going to be more effective, but you have to actively be trying in order to build a character that isn't viable. even the champion fighter, as small as the sublclass bonuses are, is viable. its just not optimal.

    that being said, no. no it isn't time to jsut leave 5e behind if you don't enjoy it. there are plenty of groups out there where min/maxing isn't neccesary. and others that are more leniant in how characters are built, allowing for a grater freedom of strong builds. for example: i played with a group that gave several different arrays to choose from. one of them being 17,16,15,14,12,10. or very similar to that. Which obviously allows for concepts that would normally struggle due to being too MAD. for example a rogue/barb multiclass. My current group not only did we start with something like a 32 point buy, we're also getting +1/+1 asi's every 3 *character* levels (with the caveat that they can't be used on the same ability score) in addition to a feat ever 4 class levels (with a portion of the feat being awarded every 2 character levels). This, means that character concepts (like a 5 full caster multiclass) are actually doable (and can actually afford to multiclass early in order to bring the concept 'online' before level 12) without making some major sacrifices in terms of ability scores. Gives more creative freedom to allow the players to build the character *they* want without having to worry about feeling overshadowed in combat. The groups are out there, it may just take time to find them.

    Now: thats not to say you *shouldn't* check out other systems. by all means, please do. there are a lot of great systems out there. My point is that you shouldn't look at the system IMO. look at the group, its possible to have a good RP experience in a system like 5e (or even 3.5 which *did* cater to min/maxing) and a bad rp experience in a Powered by the Apocalypse game, simply due to the group.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Is the roleplay aspect of D&D gone, replaced by optimization?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    I ran a six month campaign of D&D 5th edition last year, which I can absolutely say was the best campaign I ever ran in my 20 years as GM by a wide margin.

    It also made me realize that D&D is really not what I want out of RPGs. All the best parts of the campaign where when no dice rolls were done for hours, other than the occasional simple skill check. All the parts that I felt were the weakest and I had no fun running where the times were I tried to run dungeons with interesting encounters.

    I don't like setting up and running fights.
    I don't like dungeons.
    I still have no idea how to make exploring dungeons feel like a story.

    I still see how it could be a fun game to play a rules-light dungeon crawler where the players do nothing but try to get treasure out of ruined castles, tombs, or caves. But for something where the PCs have goals and motivations, make allies, and create proactive plans to make a change to their world? I just don't see how to do that in large complexes of rooms full of hostile monsters.

    Is the roleplaying aspect of D&D gone? I think there actually never was that much to begin with. D&D was always at its best when it knew it was a treasure hunting dungeon crawler. For everything else, it's not the right tool for the job.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode View Post
    For you. That is very important to realize.

    For other people it is very much the right tool for the job.

    I run games with strong focus on setting exploration, character-setting involvement, character exploration, carefully conducted situations and encounters. Treasure hunting dungeon crawling isn't really much of thing. And for me, D&D (3.5 to be precise) is very much the correct tool. My DMing style is flat-out incompatible with an approach like the Powered By the Apocalypse games. Or Fate.
    It's also possible to enjoy both. I'm playing a barbarian in a game, and there have been plenty of sessions where it's all roleplay, hardly a die is rolled, and I'm having a blast. My character went through a lot of growth. It was an accomplisment he likes wearing clothes now and cares about fashion. He's engaged to be married and is also a celebrity champion athlete of the nation. Then there are the sessions where it's all combat. Spells are blasting, swords are clashing, and I'm in the thick of it all and laugh in the DM's face when it's all over I'm still in triple digits of hit points. Even if I'm down to almost single digits it was an awesome fight because I know the punishment my character took yet he still did not drop. When combat is glorified Chess it's all a thrill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xervous View Post
    Except the main prompts the game does a good job of pushing are killing things to take their stuff, and finding your way to places where you can do the former. RP and storytelling can be done; the rules don’t prohibit them, but neither do the rules provide a lot in the way of structure or suggestions.
    Not a lot but not nothing. Backrounds help out. There's a little game mechanics involved, but it's more about defining your character giving you ideas to work with of who your character is, Even if you don't use the game's suggestions of beliefs, bonds, and flaws it at least gets you to think about it to come up with your own. Even the trinkets table might give inspiration. Why do you have whatever it is? What does the trinket mean? It's your character. The game can give mechanics to how things works, but it is up to the player to provide personality and desires.
    Last edited by Pex; 2021-01-21 at 02:06 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by OvisCaedo View Post
    Rules existing are a dire threat to the divine power of the DM.

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: Is the roleplay aspect of D&D gone, replaced by optimization?

    Quote Originally Posted by mistajames View Post
    It's because talking about roleplaying often kind of sucks, but actually roleplaying is really fun.

    Conversely, talking about optimization is fun, but (for players) it only relates to a tiny portion of the game (character creation and levelling).
    That's a nice way to answer the OP. I'll be keeping that in my back pocket.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xervous View Post
    Except the main prompts the game does a good job of pushing are killing things to take their stuff
    Hmm, the bulk of published material in the PHB is "look at all of these magical spells, here is what they do" when you get to a page count. Combat is given a detailed treatment, mechanically, in order that play follows an orderly and (reasonably rational) flow, and to allow for a certain amount of structure around which to create choices. The rest of the game follows the three steps in How To Play" in the PHB.

    If you look at the published adventures, with few exceptions there are a variety of negotiating and bargaining scenarios provided for the NPCs, and some monsters, if one reads all of the material provided.

    But one thing is for sure: treasure hunting is still a core feature. (Why take all of that risk exploring if there is not a great reward? Stick to fishing). The story telling is by its nature emergent: how we went about recovering that treasured scroll, or priceless vase, and all of the errors and successes we had along the way is the story. It's the journey that makes a difference.

    Great example last night when the party (me DM) encountered evidence of a bear in a cave. Totem barbarian asked the party to stay back; the 10 min ritual was done, and barbarian moved foward and began to have a conversation with the bear. As it worked out, they fed the bear some iron rations (we treated it like 'here, have some doggy snacks' ) and the information the bear provided ended up being crucial: the evil duergar cleric they'd been looking for had recently been eaten ... by this bear. But it had lost its mate during that confrontation. When they were done, the barbarian and the bear shared a bear hug. And, the search for the duergar cleric was now completed.

    Nobody knew anything like that was going to happen when we sat down to play last night.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2021-01-21 at 02:23 PM.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
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  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: Is the roleplay aspect of D&D gone, replaced by optimization?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Serious question: ARE there simpler OSR games? 5e is the simplest edition of D&D I've ever seen. Even the old, old-school editions were, despite having fewer knobs, far more complicated due to klunkier gameplay rules technology, to my recollection. 3e and 5e are refinements and streamlines on their basic engines to the point that they are simpler.

    Are there OSR games that are genuinely simpler, still?
    Yes of course! There are tons of rules light osr games, where the actual rules fit more or less a page. 5e is really crunchy in comparison.

    Edit, this section was added because i thought this was another thread:
    Relevant to this discussion, check out Knave which has a really simple and usable encumbrance system. Basically a number of slots based on stats (I think str or con), and it uses item based abilities. So if you want to be a spell caster, you need a magical tome for each spell, which each takes a slot. If you want to be a mighty warrior who wields heavy weapons and deal lots of damage, they require more slots. Armour takes a slot. If you want to be a skill monkey, you carry equipment to help you with climbing, picking locks etc.
    Last edited by Pelle; 2021-01-21 at 02:22 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: Is the roleplay aspect of D&D gone, replaced by optimization?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Are there OSR games that are genuinely simpler, still?
    Yes.
    The hack Delta did, and that I linked to in my reply to Morty, is one example. The semi spoofy Mazes and Minautors is a lot less complicated than 5e.

    B/X are(is) a lot simpler than 5e.

    BECMI ratchets up complexity gradually.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
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  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: Is the roleplay aspect of D&D gone, replaced by optimization?

    "Quest" is one of the simplest fantasy RPGs I've ever seen
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  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: Is the roleplay aspect of D&D gone, replaced by optimization?

    Quote Originally Posted by micahaphone View Post
    "Quest" is one of the simplest fantasy RPGs I've ever seen
    Heh, good call.

    People seem to forget: when D&D first arose, the people who created it were indies. The 'institutions' at the time were companies like Avalon Hill, Milton Bradley, Parker Brothers, and so on. Board game companies. Card game companies.

    As far as revenue streams go TSR grew out of a (games rules) publishing company. There's an old article or letter by EGG that I think I have in electronic form somewhere, where he observes quite correctly that at some point simply publishing books full of game rules for a game hits diminishing returns, and the game is more or less completed. (The TV series was envisioned as a cash generator, among other things). Things like settings and published modules and novels were a way to leverage a revenue stream out of the original intellectual property. Heard on the radio yesterday that D&D is going to have a TV show soon

    Role Playing, itself, relies on the players bringing their imaginations to the table. (There was a time when TSR had a tag line "products of your imagination" or something like that).

    Which brings me to nurturing the role playing element in this edition. Pex captured that nicely in his post: the background aspect of chargen is (for my money) a nice addition to the game. It seems to me specifically aimed at new RPG players; old hands like me don't need it as a trigger, but, I still find it to be useful in building a three to five sentence, or two paragraph, "who this character is and why they are an adventurer" that gets the RP element off and running.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2021-01-21 at 02:43 PM.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
    Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society

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    Default Re: Is the roleplay aspect of D&D gone, replaced by optimization?

    Some of the best RP I've ever done was in some very mechanically complex systems... a lot just depends on the group and GM. I had a GM who favored HERO System, and I had a great time despite the almost inane detail that system is capable of

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    Default Re: Is the roleplay aspect of D&D gone, replaced by optimization?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Serious question: ARE there simpler OSR games? 5e is the simplest edition of D&D I've ever seen. Even the old, old-school editions were, despite having fewer knobs, far more complicated due to klunkier gameplay rules technology, to my recollection. 3e and 5e are refinements and streamlines on their basic engines to the point that they are simpler.

    Are there OSR games that are genuinely simpler, still?
    O5R: Into the Unknown
    It's an OSR hack of 5e. A very good one.

    I have to say though, most of the OSR rules I've read are far more complicated that 5e, except for the spells part. Often in good ways though, since they frequently have decent rules for exploring, survival, time, hirelings ... all the actual things involved in wilderness and dungeon adventuring that 5e has bare bones rules for. 5e's "heavy rules" sections are mostly class features and spells, and resting / resource recovery.

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    Default Re: Is the roleplay aspect of D&D gone, replaced by optimization?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    It's also possible to enjoy both. I'm playing a barbarian in a game, and there have been plenty of sessions where it's all roleplay, hardly a die is rolled, and I'm having a blast. My character went through a lot of growth. It was an accomplisment he likes wearing clothes now and cares about fashion. He's engaged to be married and is also a celebrity champion athlete of the nation. Then there are the sessions where it's all combat. Spells are blasting, swords are clashing, and I'm in the thick of it all and laugh in the DM's face when it's all over I'm still in triple digits of hit points. Even if I'm down to almost single digits it was an awesome fight because I know the punishment my character took yet he still did not drop. When combat is glorified Chess it's all a thrill.
    IIRC your Barbarian slaughtered Yeenoguh while in the Abyss, right?

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    Default Re: Is the roleplay aspect of D&D gone, replaced by optimization?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schwann145 View Post
    I'm a big fan of what 5E is capable of offering to D&D, but if we're being totally honest, I've never seen it actualized. Every forum, youtube video, online or otherwise game, seems to be far more concerned about what is "the best" than what makes for an interesting shared narrative. Which spells you can ignore, which feats are mandatory, which class combinations produce the best results, etc... Doesn't it get tiring?
    If what you're interested in not "the best", you don't have a lot to learn from youtube video and online forums. Narrative advices are both way harder to build (very group dependent), often counterproductive (you might try to copy others instead of creating) and in the end not very fruitful in term of discussions, when it doesn't degenerate in toxic argumentations about what is a good or a bad DM.

    That's like half of the video games, if you go through the forums you will see everyone talk about how to be competitive or optimised, and almost no one talk about how to casually enjoy the game. And it's also linked to the fact that peoples that casually enjoy the game rarely need to look at forums to know how to do it.

    And as for gameplay, having technical battle is the "simple part". Building relationship between the character to have interesting interaction require much more work and will of the players (and DM), and some campaign take easily one year of real-time game before the character start to have enough "common experiences" for the players to naturally start RPing.

    As for 5e, RP is not gone, but it might be for your table
    (I'm currently in a campaign where we usually have one reasonably short combat every session, the remaining is roleplay)

    So try other systems, and if you search for RP try in priority systems that don't require the players to even start reading a rulebook before the first session because the character sheet is half a page and the rules (character creation excluded) is 10min of explanation.

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    Default Re: Is the roleplay aspect of D&D gone, replaced by optimization?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoiMagnus View Post
    {snip most of this excellent post} So try other systems, and if you search for RP try in priority systems that don't require the players to even start reading a rulebook before the first session because the character sheet is half a page and the rules (character creation excluded) is 10min of explanation.
    That's some fine advice. And as to forums, I really agree with you on the CRPG/video game thing. If you never visit a forum, you can enjoy the game a lot.

    I played Diablo (the original) for many months with friends via battlenet and never visited a forum. We had loads of fun. How I viewed the game changed when I began to interact with people on a bnet forum. But it also allowed me to explore some ideas that I'd never before considered.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
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    Default Re: Is the roleplay aspect of D&D gone, replaced by optimization?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schwann145 View Post
    How does one combat this without abandoning the game altogether?
    Be an adult, talk to the other participants (DM and players) and tell them what you want. Listen to what they want and see if y'all can find a path forward. The rules are guidelines and tools to help you make the kind of game you want to play. But in order to find it you have to put yourself out there and not be afraid of the criticism you'll take. Go for it.

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    Default Re: Is the roleplay aspect of D&D gone, replaced by optimization?

    MonarchsFactory
    Matt Colville
    WebDM
    Jorphdan

    Just some youtube channels that focus on story, lore, running games, and roleplaying far more than optimization.

  22. - Top - End - #112
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    Default Re: Is the roleplay aspect of D&D gone, replaced by optimization?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    IIRC your Barbarian slaughtered Yeenoguh while in the Abyss, right?
    Yep. I think he was down to 26 hit points out of 168 by the end. My character only dropped twice, playing from level 3 to currently 17. The first was failing the save against a banshee early in the campaign. Second was having to walk through a Gigantic Gelatinous Cube, and I actually wouldn't have dropped if the cleric player hadn't made a dumb move to stop concentrating on a Wall of Fire that was carving a safe space through it to cast another concentration spell. Still, had amazing battles. There's a reason I took the name Banadragos, which means Slayer of Dragons. I wear them as my armor. Ok, I'm bragging.
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  23. - Top - End - #113
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    Default Re: Is the roleplay aspect of D&D gone, replaced by optimization?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Serious question: ARE there simpler OSR games? 5e is the simplest edition of D&D I've ever seen. Even the old, old-school editions were, despite having fewer knobs, far more complicated due to klunkier gameplay rules technology, to my recollection. 3e and 5e are refinements and streamlines on their basic engines to the point that they are simpler.

    Are there OSR games that are genuinely simpler, still?
    Short answer yes, there is an OSR game called Five Torches Deep that is a cut down version of 5e.
    Long answer, Their are a lot of OSR games. Most of them trend toward pretty simple, most of them have roots in d&d basic, which declared a lot of things too complex for the puny human mind like having a race and a class. I think I saw one that did away with attack rolls and AC believing they wasted time and brain space, if you made an attack you would just roll damage (combat being a bit more deadly).
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  24. - Top - End - #114
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    Default Re: Is the roleplay aspect of D&D gone, replaced by optimization?

    Quote Originally Posted by Witty Username View Post
    Short answer yes, there is an OSR game called Five Torches Deep that is a cut down version of 5e.
    It's not very good thou.

  25. - Top - End - #115
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    Default Re: Is the roleplay aspect of D&D gone, replaced by optimization?

    Quote Originally Posted by Witty Username View Post
    I think I saw one that did away with attack rolls and AC believing they wasted time and brain space, if you made an attack you would just roll damage (combat being a bit more deadly).
    That would be Into the Odd (or its descendant Electric Bastionland), which is my personal favourite. The rules fit one page, and the few rules there are are the essential stuff you need making for an engaging experience. There are also lots of hacks for it, Mausritter is a good template adding a simple encumbrance system inspired by Knave and exploration procedures from OSE (B/X).


    I must say, I have no interest in the retro-clones and the traditional D&D-ism. Sure, I think there are some crunchy 2E retrolclones out there, but so what? There are tons of light OSR games, so if you have no interest in the tactical combat aspect of 5E there are much better options if you want to get rid of the rules overhead.

  26. - Top - End - #116
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    Default Re: Is the roleplay aspect of D&D gone, replaced by optimization?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schwann145 View Post
    I'm a big fan of what 5E is capable of offering to D&D, but if we're being totally honest, I've never seen it actualized. Every forum, youtube video, online or otherwise game, seems to be far more concerned about what is "the best" than what makes for an interesting shared narrative. Which spells you can ignore, which feats are mandatory, which class combinations produce the best results, etc... Doesn't it get tiring?

    How does one combat this without abandoning the game altogether?

    Take a character I played not-too-recently (yay covid, amirite?) that I had a lot of fun building in my head, but was a pretty huge disappointment on paper: The group was playing in Wildemount around Darktow, doing a sea-faring/pirate theme with The Revelry and whatnot. My character was basically if you took Mr. Gibbs from the Pirates of the Caribbean movies and made him a tough-as-nails jobber; uneducated but smart, burly and gruff but loyal and friendly to his own, good head for numbers, etc.
    Mechanically, he was a Path of the Storm Herald Barbarian (taking the "Sea" option every time - very thematic I thought). With levels, rolled stats, and some luck, he had very good Str/Dex/Con so I could comfortably forego wearing armor without tanking my Str, which felt like the right thing to do if you spend most of your time on a ship's deck, right? At any time he had on him a cutlass (shortsword), a hatchet, and 3 flintlock pistols, all ready to fire their one shot before being turned into improvised clubs as needed.
    If you're used to optimizing, you can probably see the problems already. He was a high Con Barb so he was tough like I wanted him to be, but being able to take a hit doesn't mean anything if you aren't a threat, and a Barb using a 1h weapon and nothing like GWM means a Barb that hits like a feather, comparatively. Since Storm Herald is thematic, but not particularly strong, as a subclass, that held my potential back even further. I ended up with a character I really liked that just couldn't pull their weight in a party of your typical 5e characters.
    The worst part is there just isn't anything to be done about it - there are just a handful of options that are so good that not taking them breaks the game.

    Who else has run into this problem and how did it go for you?
    Is it time I just left D&D behind for other systems that don't cater so much to min/maxing?
    In my humble opinion, the reason why builds are so much more commonly discussed than thematic characters and how they should be RPed is simple: builds are objective, thematics are subjective.

    Doing more damage is better than doing less damage as far as doing damage is concerned. Having more HP is better than having less HP as far as taking damage is concerned. How MUCH better can be discussed, and you can be in situations where you may not WANT optimal damage or HP (if you're playing in a lower powered game, for example). But then you're choosing to be objectively worse in a role.

    What is a good character, thematic build or appropriate for a game can vary, to the point where something that's great for one game can be horribly inappropriate for another. I like playing characters that are essentially high functioning sociopats with some redeeming traits. Those characters worked great with my regular DM (a very mature, experienced guy who runs gritty, high risk games) when we ran solo games, but would have been horrible if his idealistic teenage cousin would have joined a game expecting some heroic dungeon crawling.

    On the other hand, I once created a more light-hearted character for a play by post game - he was a inquisitor (role, not class) that was talkative, a slight bit hyper, very chipper and willing to take charge if noone else would. His main point of interest was the conflict between his role (he had been born into the church and was too scrawny to be much good in combat, so he was essentially drafted into "special operations"), and was just trying to make the most of a responsibility that had been thrust upon him. He had an extended family tree and complex relationships with his immediate family.The DM loved the character idea, and praised my RPing of him, but the rest of the party essentially seemed to want nothing to do with him. They were all quiet, brooding characters and most of them were heavy on the traditional duty and heroism - eventually I ended up not enjoying the character very much outside of combat, as I felt my RPing was just annoying people. They weren't bad RPers or bad people, they just wanted a different atmosphere in the game than I was contributing to. The internet could tell me in which order to take my class levels for best effect, but I doubt anyone could have told me that making an original character that filled a social role that was vacant in the party would end up making the game less fun for everyone.

    And this, to me, is why it's futile to discuss what's a good character/concept/RPing is. It's too context dependent. Strangers on the internet can give useful input on which class is best used to represent a dashing pirate. But they won't know me, my group or the campaign we're playing well enough to be able to tell if it would be better to use his addiction to rum for comic relief or as a darker aspect of the toll of his lifestyle slowly leading towards his degeneration and early death. I would rather have those conversations with the actual group who will play with the character, because their input is actually relevant on the subject.

    That said, I think any system with "classes" and "levels" encourages min-maxing, there are simply so many "hard" choices (choices where by definition of you pick A you can't ever get B) to not have a "build" component. If I wanted a high RP, low mechanics low power game, I'd probably use the storyteller system or something (not the supernatural parts, just the basic system with stats, skills and backgrounds).
    Spoiler: How to fix T1 classes:
    Show
    There are more posts on the forums about how to nerf T1, than there are posts about T1 characters ruining games. I would say the problem is solved!


    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    This? This isn't a slice of brilliance. This is the whole freaking pie.

    When you play the game of pwns, you're either w1n or n00b. There is no middle ground.

  27. - Top - End - #117
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    Default Re: Is the roleplay aspect of D&D gone, replaced by optimization?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Serious question: ARE there simpler OSR games? 5e is the simplest edition of D&D I've ever seen. Even the old, old-school editions were, despite having fewer knobs, far more complicated due to klunkier gameplay rules technology, to my recollection. 3e and 5e are refinements and streamlines on their basic engines to the point that they are simpler.

    Are there OSR games that are genuinely simpler, still?
    I don't know if it's even still in print, but Star Frontiers was by far the simplest RPG I've ever seen. The combined rules, GM book and Players book were about 150 pages total and the rules were very simple and loose.
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  28. - Top - End - #118
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    Default Re: Is the roleplay aspect of D&D gone, replaced by optimization?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam K View Post
    On the other hand, I once created a more light-hearted character for a play by post game - he was a inquisitor (role, not class) that was talkative, a slight bit hyper, very chipper and willing to take charge if noone else would. His main point of interest was the conflict between his role (he had been born into the church and was too scrawny to be much good in combat, so he was essentially drafted into "special operations"), and was just trying to make the most of a responsibility that had been thrust upon him. He had an extended family tree and complex relationships with his immediate family.The DM loved the character idea, and praised my RPing of him, but the rest of the party essentially seemed to want nothing to do with him. They were all quiet, brooding characters and most of them were heavy on the traditional duty and heroism - eventually I ended up not enjoying the character very much outside of combat, as I felt my RPing was just annoying people. They weren't bad RPers or bad people, they just wanted a different atmosphere in the game than I was contributing to. The internet could tell me in which order to take my class levels for best effect, but I doubt anyone could have told me that making an original character that filled a social role that was vacant in the party would end up making the game less fun for everyone.
    Reminds me of our first attempt at running Curse of Strahd. I had a cool concept for a vistani vampire spawn on a quest for revenge against Strahd for ruining his life, and the other two PCs were a tortle and dragonborn who were random murderhobos with very silly RP. I felt like my character was heavily clashing with the tone of the party, and it frustrated me.

    I later ran the exact same character in a solo run of Curse of Strahd, and it's one of the best campaigns I've ever had.

  29. - Top - End - #119
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    Default Re: Is the roleplay aspect of D&D gone, replaced by optimization?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ettina View Post
    Reminds me of our first attempt at running Curse of Strahd. I had a cool concept for a vistani vampire spawn on a quest for revenge against Strahd for ruining his life, and the other two PCs were a tortle and dragonborn who were random murderhobos with very silly RP. I felt like my character was heavily clashing with the tone of the party, and it frustrated me.

    I later ran the exact same character in a solo run of Curse of Strahd, and it's one of the best campaigns I've ever had.
    Ideally that sort of thing should be sorted out in a session 0 with the DM where you discuss character ideas, what sort of tone/genre the game will have and the like. DMs and players should be upfront with each other so that they're all singing from the same hymn sheet when it gets to session 1 time.
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  30. - Top - End - #120
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    Default Re: Is the roleplay aspect of D&D gone, replaced by optimization?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnestic View Post
    Ideally that sort of thing should be sorted out in a session 0 with the DM where you discuss character ideas, what sort of tone/genre the game will have and the like. DMs and players should be upfront with each other so that they're all singing from the same hymn sheet when it gets to session 1 time.
    I've found the concept of session 0 is not that well known and rarely used. The most common problems I hear about on these forums could all be resolved by having a good session 0.
    Spoiler: How to fix T1 classes:
    Show
    There are more posts on the forums about how to nerf T1, than there are posts about T1 characters ruining games. I would say the problem is solved!


    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    This? This isn't a slice of brilliance. This is the whole freaking pie.

    When you play the game of pwns, you're either w1n or n00b. There is no middle ground.

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