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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default I've been knocked Prone! What to do?

    I've always found it interesting and sometimes frustrating seeing how various game systems handle the concept of being knocked prone in a fight.
    In the old Fallout video games, for example, it costs like 3 action points to stand up after getting blown up from a grenade (if u survive that lol)
    In D&D 3.5/Pathfinder, it is only a Move Action to stand from prone, but it provokes opportunity attacks. And I believe if you are insanely good at Acrobatics/Tumble you can stand up as a free action without provoking.
    4th edition D&D: don't know, don't care
    5th edition D&D: costs half your movement points

    And of course there's various penalties and sometimes even benefits to being prone. Harder to get hit by ranged attacks, but melee attacks will almost always hit you. Makes sense.
    In a system of mine that I have been cooking up for years now, it costs your Primary Action (the D&D equivalent to a Standard) to stand up from prone, but you still get your Minor and Move actions.
    This I feel makes getting knocked prone a little harsh, but it goes both ways (for enemies and for players) and I think it makes getting knocked prone more of a meaningful effect.
    But still, I don't know if this is the best way to go about this. No opportunity attacks here in this case, and there is Perks/Skills to get you on your feet faster, but being knocked prone is definitely not the worst thing that can happen to you, but is kind of annoying.

    So, I ask the Playground, what in your opinion is the best way to handle the whole getting knocked prone thing in your games?

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    Default Re: I've been knocked Prone! What to do?

    I like the involvement of acrobatics skill. In my opinion it makes sense that it varies from character to character and depends on their natural skill and training.
    Translated into D&D: Acrobatics DC 10. And you don't roll, just take 10
    • Fail: uses move action, provokes attack of opportunity
    • Success: uses half movement, does not provoke
    • Super success: (beat 20) uses 5 feet movement of move action, no provoke
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: I've been knocked Prone! What to do?

    How punishing it is should fit well to how hard it is to trip someone. Ideally it should be happen occasionally but only occosionally if people act tactically sound. If it is done everytime or never at all, then the balancing is off.

    TDE 4 has the following rules for getting up : You can decide to get up fast with the equivalent of a move action, but for that you need to pass an attribute check with armor penalty. If you failed, you wasted your action. Or you can take a full round action without a check. As the system has active defense, giving up your action can hurt a lot.

    This is nice because it introduces a meaningful tactical choice to the person on the ground. Because it is an attribute check, there will always remain some chance of success failure.



    As for skills, in most systems i see them used for not actually getting prone instead of getting up fast. I would not use them for both.
    Last edited by Satinavian; 2021-01-20 at 04:17 AM.

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    Default Re: I've been knocked Prone! What to do?

    Interesting. While I guess being tripped would also result in going prone, I usually think of it as something that you do to avoid fire when there's no or minimal cover. I usually think of prone as a semi-positive thing you do yourself, that gives protection in exchange for speed.

    Either way, I don't really see why acrobatics would be relevant, since like you're not doing backflips or contorting yourself of really anything acrobatic to get back on your feet from a prone position, whether you were knocked there by a grenade or dropped there on your own initiative.

    As for what the movement penalty for crawling and standing isms, in battletech/time of war [the game I'm currently GMing], I know it costs 2 hexes to stand up because we just had that situation 2 sessions ago, and I think it costs double movement cost to crawl.
    Last edited by LordCdrMilitant; 2021-01-20 at 04:48 AM.
    Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!

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    Default Re: I've been knocked Prone! What to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by LordCdrMilitant View Post
    Either way, I don't really see why acrobatics would be relevant, since like you're not doing backflips or contorting yourself of really anything acrobatic to get back on your feet from a prone position, whether you were knocked there by a grenade or dropped there on your own initiative.
    Kip-ups.

    When you're playing mostly ranged combat, being prone is generally a benefit. You have a lower profile, and you can steady your aim against the ground.

    In melee combat, it's much less beneficial.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: I've been knocked Prone! What to do?

    The more lethal combat is the more potent the penalties of being prone should be, else it falls behind other action-resource equivalents. The more combat moves towards a gradual slog the easier it should be to escape prone.

    For the Shadowrun inspired system Iím currently working with itís a hefty bonus to melee attackers (+4 dice) and standing consumes all movement. Granted the average character goes down in 2-4 hits, you mainly see prone inflicted as a rider effect or used for takedowns where the impaired mobility is crucial. Turns out players hate chasing speedy little buggers that donít provoke and target the squishies.
    Last edited by Xervous; 2021-01-20 at 08:52 AM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: I've been knocked Prone! What to do?

    Realistically? If you go prone in a sword fight, you're dead. If you have armor, you're technically more likely to go prone than die outright, because getting you prone and then stabbing you in the groin is easier than stabbing you in the gap while you can move around.

    This is such a universal staple of sword combat that no medieval manuscripts whatsoever mention ground fighting, because there is no point - you either surrender, or you die. Musashi's Book of Five Rings doesn't feature it either, and as far as I know, neither do any Chinese sources from times when techniques in them were in actual use.

    With that in mind, being prone is equal to having 0 HP, so inflicting this status should be equally difficult.
    That which does not kill you made a tactical error.

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: I've been knocked Prone! What to do?

    For GURPS (a lethal system) it takes 2 turns to get up from prone, 1st to get to your knees and second to stand up

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    Default Re: I've been knocked Prone! What to do?

    The more effective tripping is, the more pressure there is to perform the action.

    If it's too good you will have it be the primary action in a combat. I remember well the spiked-chain trip-specialist from 3rd Edition.

    No thank you.

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    Default Re: I've been knocked Prone! What to do?

    The 2 actions in GURPS was way overkill.

    In PF there is a very long extensive feat chain dedicated to Tripping. Improved trip, brutal throw, greater imp trip, plus 4 or 5 others. That can be an entire feat chain for a character. If one dumps that much character points, limited resources into a thing that will be an amazing and common thing.


    There are no sword fighting manuals that describe fighting from prone, but there are martial arts manuals that have 1000's of techniques of throws and counter throws. Plus, it is in martial arts that we see rolling to your feet, bouncing up from a throw, & instant kip up. In D&D unarmed and armed combat is mixed quite often. So, being prone is common. In other games, that doesn't happen so prone is far more dangerous and uncommon.


    If standing up takes your whole action, it will happen often, because it is action economy manipulation.
    If it takes only a tiny bit of movement, what is the point? Tripping in 5E is rarely helpful because the enemy can still get up and move and attack.

    That leaves us with it takes up a needed action, but still lets the prone character present a danger. I prefer the 3.5 method of taking up the move action. The character can still attack, or can move away.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: I've been knocked Prone! What to do?

    Man, it really depends.

    I mean, I want my armored turtle or my decrepit self (OK, I only *feel* decrepit) to spend *forever* getting up without assistance / to have to crawl to some nice handy scenery to grab onto to get up. I expect the trained soldier to drop prone / dive for cover at the drop of a hat (or especially the drop of a grenade pin), and get back up with relative ease. I expect a trained martial artist to make being prone look *advantageous*, and change state at their whim. I think that characters could / should be characterized by those differences.

    What I really love is Battletech mechs, having to roll piloting to stand from prone, else they fall down again and take damage.

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    Default Re: I've been knocked Prone! What to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by gijoemike View Post
    Tripping in 5E is rarely helpful because the enemy can still get up and move and attack.
    Shoving prone in 5e can be very helpful if you have allies in melee with you to attack them as well. They also can't stand up if they're also grabbed, so they're stuck prone until they get out of the grab.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: I've been knocked Prone! What to do?

    making prone effective helps make prone fighting worth taking.

    if i was running it, being prone means bad guys have advantage to kick you while down, but their short melee weapons are actually at disadvantage to hit you unless thrown (like daggers)

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    Default Re: I've been knocked Prone! What to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    Kip-ups.

    When you're playing mostly ranged combat, being prone is generally a benefit. You have a lower profile, and you can steady your aim against the ground.

    In melee combat, it's much less beneficial.
    You can stand up acrobatically like that, but it's not any faster or more efficient than just pushing yourself up with your hands and pulling your knee under you to stand up from prone normally, so I don't see why an acrobatics test would be necessary.


    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Man, it really depends.

    I mean, I want my armored turtle or my decrepit self (OK, I only *feel* decrepit) to spend *forever* getting up without assistance / to have to crawl to some nice handy scenery to grab onto to get up. I expect the trained soldier to drop prone / dive for cover at the drop of a hat (or especially the drop of a grenade pin), and get back up with relative ease. I expect a trained martial artist to make being prone look *advantageous*, and change state at their whim. I think that characters could / should be characterized by those differences.

    What I really love is Battletech mechs, having to roll piloting to stand from prone, else they fall down again and take damage.
    Battlemechs need life alert. "Help me! I've fallen and I can't get up!"

    My players are starting to avoid wandering their mechs into rivers or anything that might provoke a piloting test, after one went in, failed his piloting test, and spent three turns trying to stand up his 55 ton battlemech and taking more damage every time.

    To be fair though, a battlemech is a 55 ton robot that both doesn't have the same articulation as a person and often doesn't have hands to lift itself up with; and the thing that knocks you prone in the first place is usually a gyro crit, so your misbehaving gyro is going to make it hard to stand at all much less stand up.
    Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!

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    Default Re: I've been knocked Prone! What to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by LordCdrMilitant View Post
    You can stand up acrobatically like that, but it's not any faster or more efficient than just pushing yourself up with your hands and pulling your knee under you to stand up from prone normally, so I don't see why an acrobatics test would be necessary.
    To reward the player who picked acrobatics instead of something useful like perception or arcana

    It doesn't do much but it makes the player feel awesome. You can't convince me that isn't important.
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    Default Re: I've been knocked Prone! What to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    To reward the player who picked acrobatics instead of something useful like perception or arcana

    It doesn't do much but it makes the player feel awesome. You can't convince me that isn't important.
    While there is making players feel accomplished [within the general spirit of the game] is a laudable aim, requiring a skill to do simple things like stand up from a prone firing position quickly really just serves to make everything feel narmy and kind of lame, or make the skill a pointless point-tax that everyone has.

    It's like the whole ladder problem in some editions of D&D.


    Standing up from prone is an incredibly simple action. I can do it in about a second, even with stuff in my hands, without any jumping or contorting or anything; and I'm not athletic at all. I definitely don't think there should be any tests involved.
    Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!

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    Default Re: I've been knocked Prone! What to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by LordCdrMilitant View Post
    While there is making players feel accomplished [within the general spirit of the game] is a laudable aim, requiring a skill to do simple things like stand up from a prone firing position quickly really just serves to make everything feel narmy and kind of lame, or make the skill a pointless point-tax that everyone has.

    It's like the whole ladder problem in some editions of D&D.


    Standing up from prone is an incredibly simple action. I can do it in about a second, even with stuff in my hands, without any jumping or contorting or anything; and I'm not athletic at all. I definitely don't think there should be any tests involved.
    Yeah but can you do it with armor and a full backpack and a guy standing over you trying to murder you with a sword? Without exposing any openings for him to stab you? I think once you add some dangers it matters, if you're just lying down in a room then you just get to do your kip up if you're proficient, no roll or anything. If you're being murderized then a roll for an attempt may be useful.
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    Default Re: I've been knocked Prone! What to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by gijoemike View Post
    If standing up takes your whole action, it will happen often, because it is action economy manipulation.
    If it takes only a tiny bit of movement, what is the point? Tripping in 5E is rarely helpful because the enemy can still get up and move and attack.
    Depends on your priorities in combat. Back when 5e was new (only PHB was out), I was in a game where I played a Dragonborn Valor Bard. Party ended up in combat with an enemy dragonborn (or possibly half-dragon), and a bunch of kobolds. Our party Warlock used Hex on the enemy dragonborn (hexxing his Strength checks), since he was wearing heavy armor, we figured he had no DEX. I grappled him, and then "shoved" him to knock him prone. The grappled condition means his Speed is 0, and he has to use half his speed to stand up, and can't stand up if his speed is 0. Granted, I had to use part of my Action for the next several rounds maintaining the grapple while the rest of the party took out all the kobolds, but I also completely neutralized the threat of the most dangerous enemy combatant with my turn. The Hex also meant that he had disadvantage on checks to attempt to escape the grapple (and I had a decent STR, so that didn't happen).

    So...I can see your point, but sometimes, it can still be worth it, is all I'm saying.
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    Default Re: I've been knocked Prone! What to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    Yeah but can you do it with armor and a full backpack and a guy standing over you trying to murder you with a sword? Without exposing any openings for him to stab you? I think once you add some dangers it matters, if you're just lying down in a room then you just get to do your kip up if you're proficient, no roll or anything. If you're being murderized then a roll for an attempt may be useful.
    Do you think that jumping up from your back is better than just standing up normally when you're wearing a plate carrier and all your wargear under fire?

    Even if one would be slower to stand up in full wargear, that doesn't mean that one would be standing up differently, particularly in a more difficult way.


    As for not being hit, moving evasively to not be hit is baked into the whole adding of your DEX to your HP.
    Last edited by LordCdrMilitant; 2021-01-21 at 11:20 PM.
    Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: I've been knocked Prone! What to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by LordCdrMilitant View Post
    Battlemechs need life alert. "Help me! I've fallen and I can't get up!"

    My players are starting to avoid wandering their mechs into rivers or anything that might provoke a piloting test, after one went in, failed his piloting test, and spent three turns trying to stand up his 55 ton battlemech and taking more damage every time.

    To be fair though, a battlemech is a 55 ton robot that both doesn't have the same articulation as a person and often doesn't have hands to lift itself up with; and the thing that knocks you prone in the first place is usually a gyro crit, so your misbehaving gyro is going to make it hard to stand at all much less stand up.
    Thanks for the laugh!

    Sadly, one of my opponents did not heed that advice, braved the river, and powned my poor mech.

    Usually, I design mechs from a player's PoV. But I'm beginning to think that, were I a pilot, I would probably want a Streak LRM-20, just to shoot at anyone with a gyro hit.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordCdrMilitant View Post
    Standing up from prone is an incredibly simple action. I can do it in about a second, even with stuff in my hands, without any jumping or contorting or anything; and I'm not athletic at all. I definitely don't think there should be any tests involved.
    I never could keep jealousy and envy straight, butÖ that's not something I can say. It usually takes me a bit to right myself after a fall.

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    Thumbs up Re: I've been knocked Prone! What to do?

    So I've been reading these posts and I've come up with a new idea for knocked prone/standing up for my game system.
    Basically, standing up is still a Primary Action by default. However, you can opt to roll an Agility check (modified by Acrobatics skill and penalized by armor) to stand up fast as a free action.
    If you fail this check, you still get to stand up but it costs you a Primary Action as normal.
    However, if you get a Nat 1 on this check, you remain Prone and your turn just ends (Crit Fail!)
    How does that sound?

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    Default Re: I've been knocked Prone! What to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by LordCdrMilitant View Post
    Do you think that jumping up from your back is better than just standing up normally when you're wearing a plate carrier and all your wargear under fire?

    Even if one would be slower to stand up in full wargear, that doesn't mean that one would be standing up differently, particularly in a more difficult way.


    As for not being hit, moving evasively to not be hit is baked into the whole adding of your DEX to your HP.
    Absolutely yes it is better and the reason is straightforward: it looks cooler
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    Default Re: I've been knocked Prone! What to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    Absolutely yes it is better and the reason is straightforward: it looks cooler
    I don't think that's a good reason to confer a mechanical advantage. Excess and flair is just excess and flair.
    Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!

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    Default Re: I've been knocked Prone! What to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by LordCdrMilitant View Post
    I don't think that's a good reason to confer a mechanical advantage. Excess and flair is just excess and flair.
    Then we're at an impasse. I think coolness is one of the main points of the game, at least for any adventure based RPG.
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    Default Re: I've been knocked Prone! What to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by LordCdrMilitant View Post
    Do you think that jumping up from your back is better than just standing up normally when you're wearing a plate carrier and all your wargear under fire?

    Even if one would be slower to stand up in full wargear, that doesn't mean that one would be standing up differently, particularly in a more difficult way.

    As for not being hit, moving evasively to not be hit is baked into the whole adding of your DEX to your HP.
    You can't stand up 'normally', because you have to keep either your sharp bit of metal or a good bit of distance between you and whomever got you down here. You'd need to stand up using primarily your legs, keeping your poise as much as possible. While literally jumping up is a bit excessive, it is a better idea than rolling over, getting your arms beneath you and pushing yourself up.

    Keep in mind you are likely to get trampled to break or mend your battleline and the person that knocked you prone may hit you during your fall, or jump on you for an easy blow when you land.

    Rolling with whatever tripped you is your best option honestly, and still not pretty.

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    Default Re: I've been knocked Prone! What to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    Then we're at an impasse. I think coolness is one of the main points of the game, at least for any adventure based RPG.
    Coolness is important, but what we find cool is different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sneak Dog View Post
    You can't stand up 'normally', because you have to keep either your sharp bit of metal or a good bit of distance between you and whomever got you down here. You'd need to stand up using primarily your legs, keeping your poise as much as possible. While literally jumping up is a bit excessive, it is a better idea than rolling over, getting your arms beneath you and pushing yourself up.

    Keep in mind you are likely to get trampled to break or mend your battleline and the person that knocked you prone may hit you during your fall, or jump on you for an easy blow when you land.

    Rolling with whatever tripped you is your best option honestly, and still not pretty.
    Yes, you can, and it is better than jumping up; you can find any video of troops in a firefight and note that they don't generally do weird acrobatics when standing up to move.

    Also, standing up with your hands and feet is in fact better than jumping up like in that video from the perspective of avoiding being struck in CQC. Consider the kinematics of the action, and your points and opportunities to control yourself.


    Also, dynamically avoiding blows is baked into the attack resolution process either from AC or a reactive dodge, which would cover not being hit while standing up.


    I don't usually punish a desire to exhibit unnecessary or only mildly detrimental flair, but I also don't give a benefit for doing so.
    Last edited by LordCdrMilitant; 2021-01-24 at 10:56 PM.
    Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!

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    Default Re: I've been knocked Prone! What to do?

    The D&D combat system is fairly abstract. One could assume that combatants are already trying to trip each other, sometimes succeeding and sometimes failing - with the opponent usually getting up during the round of combat.

    Whether your entire routine of punches, slashes, trips, dirt in the eye, etc. was effective is exactly what the TO HIT and DAM rolls reveal.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Pixie in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: I've been knocked Prone! What to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by LordCdrMilitant View Post
    ...you can find any video of troops in a firefight and note that they don't generally do weird acrobatics when standing up to move...
    When was the last time a 'firefight' involved melee-range combat with edged weapons?

    To the nearest decade, even?

    Did they have video then?

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    Default Re: I've been knocked Prone! What to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by FrogInATopHat View Post
    When was the last time a 'firefight' involved melee-range combat with edged weapons?

    To the nearest decade, even?

    Did they have video then?
    IIRC 2012; at least for the developed world ;). While there aren't videos, I don't think there was any going prone in within reach of pointy.

    That said - if it was faster to stand by jumping [or possible in battle gear] soldiers would be trained to do it. But it isn't actually faster, which basically rules out any reason you would, because a basic analysis of the situation would tell you that it's not more maneuverable or evasive.

    Consider the kinetics of the act of standing up from a prone position. Jumping up like in that video relies on carrying through your momentum to put you on your feet; this is intrinsically bad from the not-being-stabbed perspective since you have less ability to either abort standing up and roll to the side, twist yourself out of the way, or otherwise change the position of your body from a more continuously controlled motion like a normal standing up.
    Last edited by LordCdrMilitant; 2021-01-26 at 09:42 PM.
    Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!

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    Default Re: I've been knocked Prone! What to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by LordCdrMilitant View Post
    IIRC 2012; at least for the developed world ;).
    Wow. What was the conflict?


    That said - if it was faster to stand by jumping [or possible in battle gear] soldiers would be trained to do it. But it isn't actually faster, which basically rules out any reason you would, because a basic analysis of the situation would tell you that it's not more maneuverable or evasive.
    I know that precisely one person brought up the Kip-Up thing, but why are you so focused on it? That's not in the rules and seems to have only been offered as a suggested interpretation of game mechanics that you've gotten very caught up in.

    The acrobatics check, which seems to have been your initial problem, doesn't have to be for a kip-up. But what other skill or mechanic do you suggest to measure a character's proficiency or expertise in the kinetics of standing on two feet from prone successfully without exposing yourself to an attack from an adjacent foe?

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