Polymorph Any Object: 100 cu. ft./level?!

[Aquillion]

While I was looking something up, I noticed something that I'd always overlooked before. In the description for Polymorph Any Object, the 'target' line reads:

Target: One creature, or one nonmagical object of up to 100 cu. ft./level

100 cubic feet per level. That is to say, a level 20 wizard can PAO an object covering an area of over a third of a mile in every direction.

First, why is its size limit so big? Were they worried about it not being powerful enough? I can't even begin to imagine what they intended players to be using that 100 cu. ft. / level limit on. PAOing castles? Cities? Entire dungeons?

I am picturing something a bit like this:

DM: You stand before the dread tomb of Crytor, a huge, ancient complex from ages past, filled with traps and deadly monsters. Unless you can defeat...
Wizard: Hey, how big did you say it was?
DM: Oh, I don't know, big. Say, a third of a mile along all three dimensions.
Wizard: Gotcha. I Polymorph Any Object it into a toad.
DM: You... what?
Wizard: The dungeon. I polymorph it into a toad. *points to the spell description* And then I step on it.

Note that if he had polymorph any object'ed it into an identical, smaller dungeon the size of a housecat, it would have had a duration of 'permanent'. Also note that creatures inside are not reduced in size along with it, so... sucks to be them.

Second, does this limit apply to the end result of what you PAO the object into? As the spell is written, it really appears that it doesn't, and that you can just PAO an object to an arbitrarily large size (this will reduce the calculation you use to determine duration, but as long as you only change the size, the object will still get +5 for same kingdom, +2 for same class, +2 for same or lower intelligence, and will remain at that size permanently.

Even if you decided that the 100 cu. ft. / level limit applies to the end result, you could still make a person up to a third of a mile in height, and there would be no problems. Additionally, worrying about duration is a bit unnecessary when you can, say, walk into a town and make a pebble suddenly grow to 100 cu. ft. / level and crush the entire place. In a dungeon, you could easily crush everything in a room while standing safely outside it. You could also go around dropping pebbles a third of a mile in all dimensions on towns. You can create mountains.

And if you don't assume that that 100 cu. ft. / level is a restriction on the end result, you can just make a pebble large enough to fill an entire plane. You could make yourself that big, if you want to.

[AslanCross]

This is why the sanity of even allowing the use of this spell is questionable.

[Aquillion]

Don't get me wrong, I knew PAO was broken. I didn't realize that it could be used to destroy entire dungeons and crush everything inside, or to destroy an entire plane with a standard action.

[AslanCross]

Arguably, though, the possible existence of magical wards within the dungeon might prevent PAO from actually working. Furthermore, I'd rule the dungeon isn't a single object. He may be able to do that to a tree or to a side of a mountain, but not an intricate structure.

...

...That said, I'm officially banning this spell from my games. Thank you for the heads up.

[Khanderas]

Target: One creature, or one nonmagical object of up to 100 cu. ft./level

100 cubic feet per level. That is to say, a level 20 wizard can PAO an object covering an area of over a third of a mile in every direction.

100 cubic feet times 20 = 2000 cubic feet. Or an object 20 feet long, 10 feet high and 10 feet deep. Not 1/3 mile sqared.
Weather it is balanced now, I do not know, but the math is now correct(er)


EDIT: 1 mile = 5280 feet (googled it up. whee). 1/3 of a mile is then 1760 feet. And then a cube with that dimension on all sides would be 1760 x 1760 x 1760 = 3 099 360 feet cubed

3.1 million cube feet > 2 thousand cube feet by about 1500 times.

Bored at work ? Yup.

[Jayabalard]

Target: One creature, or one nonmagical object of up to 100 cu. ft./level

100 cubic feet per level. That is to say, a level 20 wizard can PAO an object covering an area of over a third of a mile in every direction.

Recheck your math

100 cubic feet per level at level 20 is 2000 cubic feet; if you make that into a cube, that's a space that just about fills a 12.6' x 12.6' x 12.6' cube or you could do a space that is 10' x 10' x 20' if you are ok with a non-cube. That doesn't seem particularly overpowering to me, especially at 20th level.

a mile is 5280', and a third of that 1760' ... so a third of a mile in every direction is a cube with dimensions 1760 x1760 x1760, or 5,451,776,000 cubic feet (the above poster with his 3 million only squared it, rather than cubing it).

[Khanderas]

I was sure I did cube it, but I guess I brought it on myself for not doublechecking my math after correcting somone else

[Dausuul]

Of course, this sort of thing just highlights the idiocy of having some spell volumes measured in cubic feet and others in 10-foot cubes. This has got to be the third or fourth time I've seen someone make this mistake. Why couldn't they just have said "must fit within a 10-foot cube?"

Polymorph any object is one of the most broken spells in the game, but area of effect is not the reason.

[Hario]

I wonder if you use sculpt spell you can create a bunch of extra effects say you needed to change 3 people into pillars, one casting with sculpt spell could do it.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

Ummm excuse me... this is where a trained and veteran DM needs to walk up to the player trying to bull this load of bullplop, takes his hand, and smacks him upside the head.


Polymorph Any Object means you Polymorph a SINGLE OBJECT PERIOD.

Not MULTIPLE OBJECTS WHICH MAKE UP A MAP.

a SINGLE OBJECT!



A dungeon is comprised of millions of objects.

Look at your wall. Do you honestly consider a wall a single object? Your wall is comprised of at least 2 separate sheets of plyboard, 4 sheets of sheetrock or whatever is used, at least 4 major support beams, and 12 minor support beams.

A standard roman support column is comprised of at least 8-22 separate pieces of marble.

Each piece is considered AN OBJECT.


Again, this spell is called Polymorph Any Object, NOT Polymorph Billions of Objects that make up a work of something or another.

[Lochar]

Do you consider that keyboard you're typing on one single object?

I mean, it's made up of over a hundred different pieces of molded plastic, a slew of springs, and some paint.

Each which can be considered a different object.


Oh, and please don't scream.

[Catch]

Again, this spell is called Polymorph Any Object, NOT Polymorph Billions of Objects that make up a work of something or another.

An atom is an object. A creature is made up of billions of atoms.

I can only target one of them at a time, I guess.

[Hario]

An atom is an object. A creature is made up of billions of atoms.

I can only target one of them at a time, I guess.

...and transform it into a red dragon... bound to the creature whose atom you just mixed xD...

[Dalboz of Gurth]

Do you consider that keyboard you're typing on one single object?

Technically it is multiple objects, and you chose the wrong argument to pose on that one, because I have to routinely take the keys apart and clean my keyboard.

I am all too familiar with how many freakin objects are in my keyboard:

136 Keys, 136 plungers (one for each key), 1 metal bar for the space bar, 136 separate little magnets, 4 wrapped cords in various areas that connect to one keyboard chip-board (whatever it's called), which is concealed in two separate casings (top and bottom), for a total of:

416 objects.

I mean, it's made up of over a hundred different pieces of molded plastic, a slew of springs, and some paint.

Each which can be considered a different object.

Not as far as this spell is concerned, and anyone who plays this spell with such lunacy needs to be introduced to something called "Wild Magic Zones."


The entire purpose of Polymorph ANY Object being restricted to ONE SINGLE OBJECT, is to prevent players from Polymorphing a "Treasure Pile" of copper into a "Treasure Pile" of 1 million coins of platinum.

If you start giving people this ridiculous idea that a concept is an entire object then you're going to have serious problems down the line with other spells.

Oh, and please don't scream.

I wasn't screaming I was emphasizing with youthful proclamation.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

An atom is an object. A creature is made up of billions of atoms.

I can only target one of them at a time, I guess.

Line of Sight prevents this, since you cannot view atomic structure nor conceive of it.

[Indon]

An atom is an object. A creature is made up of billions of atoms.

I can only target one of them at a time, I guess.

Now that is a version of Polymorph Any Object which isn't too powerful.

[AKA_Bait]

An atom is an object. A creature is made up of billions of atoms.

I can only target one of them at a time, I guess.

I polymorph that hydrogen atom into uranium! AHAHAHAHAHAH!

[Dalboz of Gurth]

Now that is a version of Polymorph Any Object which isn't too powerful.

:polymorph an atom into a split atom:

But you still can't do that because of line of sight issues ;D

[Indon]

I polymorph that hydrogen atom into uranium! AHAHAHAHAHAH!

A few months of casting and you might be able to create a loud *POP* with the nuclear reaction you could start with them.

Edit: And splitting a single atom is not all that powerful. It takes many, many atom-splitting reactions built into a chain reaction to produce an explosion of any potency.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

A few months of casting and you might be able to create a loud *POP* with the nuclear reaction you could start with them.

Edit: And splitting a single atom is not all that powerful. It takes many, many atom-splitting reactions built into a chain reaction to produce an explosion of any potency.

OH ok :D



I think though people get the point. Polymorph an Object is made to allow people to transmute a giant block of granite, such as a granite wall produced by a mage escaping a party.

But it is not made to allow people to disrupt the foundation of a castle by polymorphing an entire wall that is made up of thousands of blocks of granite + mortar.

[AKA_Bait]

A few months of casting and you might be able to create a loud *POP* with the nuclear reaction you could start with them.

Edit: And splitting a single atom is not all that powerful. It takes many, many atom-splitting reactions built into a chain reaction to produce an explosion of any potency.

I weep for the catgirls who suffered for my failed attempt a joke...

I think though people get the point. Polymorph an Object is made to allow people to transmute a giant block of granite, such as a granite wall produced by a mage escaping a party.

But it is not made to allow people to disrupt the foundation of a castle by polymorphing an entire wall that is made up of thousands of blocks of granite + mortar.

Right. If you can't do that with transmute rock to mud, why with polymorph? Honestly though, have any of you ever seen a player try to go against the spirit of the rules as badly as the OP describes? I haven't... maybe I'm lucky.

[Catch]

Line of Sight prevents this, since you cannot view atomic structure nor conceive of it.

Line of Sight means there is nothing obscuring your view of your target--no solid objects. If you can't draw a straight line between you and your target, you don't have line of sight. Since nothing is obstructing the line between you and an atom, the ability to see atomic structure isn't required.

And if you wanted to be picky, a Wizard could always Fabricate himself a Scanning Tunneling Microscope.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

I weep for the catgirls who suffered for my failed attempt a joke...

Kelleron the Brownie of Light comes to the rescue and joyfully lays on hands upon all of the catgirls who suffered.

Right. If you can't do that with transmute rock to mud, why with polymorph? Honestly though, have any of you ever seen a player try to go against the spirit of the rules as badly as the OP describes? I haven't... maybe I'm lucky.

Yes, actually. Over the years, many of the reports where I've seen this kind of idiocy have come from reports concerning RPGA sanctioned games. And really is one of the main reasons why I loathe that gaming association. It's like it tries to breed this kind of lunacy in Players and DMs alike. :shudders:


I also had a fool try to do something similar with a similar spell in one of my games. Although I relented, he got more than he deserved and learned never to question me again. WUAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA

[Hario]

I polymorph that hydrogen atom into uranium! AHAHAHAHAHAH!

Batman: "I see you have found me superman, too bad one of your atoms is now made of krytonite... Mwhahahaha!"

[Dalboz of Gurth]

Line of Sight means there is nothing obscuring your view of your target--no solid objects. If you can't draw a straight line between you and your target, you don't have line of sight. Since nothing is obstructing the line between you and an atom, the ability to see atomic structure isn't required.

And if you wanted to be picky, a Wizard could always Fabricate himself a Scanning Tunneling Microscope.

Line of Sight refers specifically to being able to view said targeted object. Period. A wizard cannot view an atom regardless of it's position without an atomic microscope. And unless a player demonstrates his capacity to understand the concept of atomic structures, Atomic Structures, and specific atoms within said structures, will remain a piece of out of character knowledge.

[Catch]

Line of Sight refers specifically to being able to view said targeted object. Period.

Not quite:

To determine line of sight, draw an imaginary line between your space and the target's space. If any such line is clear (not blocked), then you have line of sight to the creature (and it has line of sight to you). The line is clear if it doesn't intersect or even touch squares that block line of sight

A wizard cannot view an atom regardless of it's position without an atomic microscope. And unless a player demonstrates his capacity to understand the concept of atomic structures, Atomic Structures, and specific atoms within said structures, will remain a piece of out of character knowledge.

This is D&D we're talking about here. Why are you bringing logic to the table?

[AKA_Bait]

Line of Sight refers specifically to being able to view said targeted object. Period. A wizard cannot view an atom regardless of it's position without an atomic microscope. And unless a player demonstrates his capacity to understand the concept of atomic structures, Atomic Structures, and specific atoms within said structures, will remain a piece of out of character knowledge.

Honestly, if you believe the Aragorn is only 5th level article then that should be a pretty easy check for any wizard capable of casting the spell with any ranks in Knowledge: Physics. :-)

[Indon]

Batman: "I see you have found me superman, too bad one of your atoms is now made of krytonite... Mwhahahaha!"

You just know they must have done that as a superman villain idea some time.

"Now you see, Superman, as I slowly transmute your body into kryptonite, you become weaker and weaker!"

[Dalboz of Gurth]

This is D&D we're talking about here. Why are you bringing logic to the table?

Spells which require you to view the object, and are thus affect by line of sight, are also affected by darkness spells or areas bereft of light -- any means by which you are prevented from viewing the object you are trying to magically manipulate prevent you from magically manipulating that object (providing the spell has a line of sight, or sight requirement attached).

[Dalboz of Gurth]

Honestly, if you believe the Aragorn is only 5th level article then that should be a pretty easy check for any wizard capable of casting the spell with any ranks in Knowledge: Physics. :-)

But not everyone has ranks in physics, and fewer still know enough to justify manipuating atomic structures like they're Firestorm.