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2007-11-07, 04:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Singapore
Polymorph Any Object: 100 cu. ft./level?!
While I was looking something up, I noticed something that I'd always overlooked before. In the description for Polymorph Any Object, the 'target' line reads:
Target: One creature, or one nonmagical object of up to 100 cu. ft./level
100 cubic feet per level. That is to say, a level 20 wizard can PAO an object covering an area of over a third of a mile in every direction.
First, why is its size limit so big? Were they worried about it not being powerful enough? I can't even begin to imagine what they intended players to be using that 100 cu. ft. / level limit on. PAOing castles? Cities? Entire dungeons?
I am picturing something a bit like this:
DM: You stand before the dread tomb of Crytor, a huge, ancient complex from ages past, filled with traps and deadly monsters. Unless you can defeat...
Wizard: Hey, how big did you say it was?
DM: Oh, I don't know, big. Say, a third of a mile along all three dimensions.
Wizard: Gotcha. I Polymorph Any Object it into a toad.
DM: You... what?
Wizard: The dungeon. I polymorph it into a toad. *points to the spell description* And then I step on it.
Second, does this limit apply to the end result of what you PAO the object into? As the spell is written, it really appears that it doesn't, and that you can just PAO an object to an arbitrarily large size (this will reduce the calculation you use to determine duration, but as long as you only change the size, the object will still get +5 for same kingdom, +2 for same class, +2 for same or lower intelligence, and will remain at that size permanently.
Even if you decided that the 100 cu. ft. / level limit applies to the end result, you could still make a person up to a third of a mile in height, and there would be no problems. Additionally, worrying about duration is a bit unnecessary when you can, say, walk into a town and make a pebble suddenly grow to 100 cu. ft. / level and crush the entire place. In a dungeon, you could easily crush everything in a room while standing safely outside it. You could also go around dropping pebbles a third of a mile in all dimensions on towns. You can create mountains.
And if you don't assume that that 100 cu. ft. / level is a restriction on the end result, you can just make a pebble large enough to fill an entire plane. You could make yourself that big, if you want to.Last edited by Aquillion; 2007-11-07 at 04:56 AM.
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2007-11-07, 04:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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- Metro Manila, Philippines
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Re: Polymorph Any Object: 100 cu. ft./level?!
This is why the sanity of even allowing the use of this spell is questionable.
Eberron Red Hand of Doom Campaign Journal. NOW COMPLETE!
Sakuya Izayoi avatar by Mr. Saturn. Caella sig by Neoseph.
"I dunno, you just gave me the image of a nerd flying slow motion over a coffee table towards another nerd, dual wielding massive books. It was awesome." -- Marriclay
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2007-11-07, 04:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Singapore
Re: Polymorph Any Object: 100 cu. ft./level?!
Don't get me wrong, I knew PAO was broken. I didn't realize that it could be used to destroy entire dungeons and crush everything inside, or to destroy an entire plane with a standard action.
Last edited by Aquillion; 2007-11-07 at 04:57 AM.
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2007-11-07, 05:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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- Metro Manila, Philippines
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Re: Polymorph Any Object: 100 cu. ft./level?!
Arguably, though, the possible existence of magical wards within the dungeon might prevent PAO from actually working. Furthermore, I'd rule the dungeon isn't a single object. He may be able to do that to a tree or to a side of a mountain, but not an intricate structure.
...
...That said, I'm officially banning this spell from my games. Thank you for the heads up.
Eberron Red Hand of Doom Campaign Journal. NOW COMPLETE!
Sakuya Izayoi avatar by Mr. Saturn. Caella sig by Neoseph.
"I dunno, you just gave me the image of a nerd flying slow motion over a coffee table towards another nerd, dual wielding massive books. It was awesome." -- Marriclay
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2007-11-07, 05:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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Re: Polymorph Any Object: 100 cu. ft./level?!
100 cubic feet times 20 = 2000 cubic feet. Or an object 20 feet long, 10 feet high and 10 feet deep. Not 1/3 mile sqared.
Weather it is balanced now, I do not know, but the math is now correct(er)
EDIT: 1 mile = 5280 feet (googled it up. whee). 1/3 of a mile is then 1760 feet. And then a cube with that dimension on all sides would be 1760 x 1760 x 1760 = 3 099 360 feet cubed
3.1 million cube feet > 2 thousand cube feet by about 1500 times.
Bored at work ? Yup.Last edited by Khanderas; 2007-11-07 at 05:20 AM.
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2007-11-07, 07:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
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- Orlando, FL
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Re: Polymorph Any Object: 100 cu. ft./level?!
Recheck your math
100 cubic feet per level at level 20 is 2000 cubic feet; if you make that into a cube, that's a space that just about fills a 12.6' x 12.6' x 12.6' cube or you could do a space that is 10' x 10' x 20' if you are ok with a non-cube. That doesn't seem particularly overpowering to me, especially at 20th level.
a mile is 5280', and a third of that 1760' ... so a third of a mile in every direction is a cube with dimensions 1760 x1760 x1760, or 5,451,776,000 cubic feet (the above poster with his 3 million only squared it, rather than cubing it).Last edited by Jayabalard; 2007-11-07 at 07:33 AM.
Kungaloosh!
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2007-11-07, 08:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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Re: Polymorph Any Object: 100 cu. ft./level?!
I was sure I did cube it, but I guess I brought it on myself for not doublechecking my math after correcting somone else
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2007-11-07, 09:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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Re: Polymorph Any Object: 100 cu. ft./level?!
Of course, this sort of thing just highlights the idiocy of having some spell volumes measured in cubic feet and others in 10-foot cubes. This has got to be the third or fourth time I've seen someone make this mistake. Why couldn't they just have said "must fit within a 10-foot cube?"
Polymorph any object is one of the most broken spells in the game, but area of effect is not the reason.Last edited by Dausuul; 2007-11-07 at 09:20 AM.
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2007-11-07, 11:02 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2006
- Location
- Auburn Ma
Re: Polymorph Any Object: 100 cu. ft./level?!
I wonder if you use sculpt spell you can create a bunch of extra effects say you needed to change 3 people into pillars, one casting with sculpt spell could do it.
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2007-11-07, 11:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
Re: Polymorph Any Object: 100 cu. ft./level?!
Ummm excuse me... this is where a trained and veteran DM needs to walk up to the player trying to bull this load of bullplop, takes his hand, and smacks him upside the head.
Polymorph Any Object means you Polymorph a SINGLE OBJECT PERIOD.
Not MULTIPLE OBJECTS WHICH MAKE UP A MAP.
a SINGLE OBJECT!
A dungeon is comprised of millions of objects.
Look at your wall. Do you honestly consider a wall a single object? Your wall is comprised of at least 2 separate sheets of plyboard, 4 sheets of sheetrock or whatever is used, at least 4 major support beams, and 12 minor support beams.
A standard roman support column is comprised of at least 8-22 separate pieces of marble.
Each piece is considered AN OBJECT.
Again, this spell is called Polymorph Any Object, NOT Polymorph Billions of Objects that make up a work of something or another.Last edited by Dalboz of Gurth; 2007-11-07 at 11:12 AM.
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2007-11-07, 11:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2007
Re: Polymorph Any Object: 100 cu. ft./level?!
Do you consider that keyboard you're typing on one single object?
I mean, it's made up of over a hundred different pieces of molded plastic, a slew of springs, and some paint.
Each which can be considered a different object.
Oh, and please don't scream.
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2007-11-07, 11:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2006
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- Romancing the Windy City
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2007-11-07, 11:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2006
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- Auburn Ma
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2007-11-07, 11:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
Re: Polymorph Any Object: 100 cu. ft./level?!
Technically it is multiple objects, and you chose the wrong argument to pose on that one, because I have to routinely take the keys apart and clean my keyboard.
I am all too familiar with how many freakin objects are in my keyboard:
136 Keys, 136 plungers (one for each key), 1 metal bar for the space bar, 136 separate little magnets, 4 wrapped cords in various areas that connect to one keyboard chip-board (whatever it's called), which is concealed in two separate casings (top and bottom), for a total of:
416 objects.
I mean, it's made up of over a hundred different pieces of molded plastic, a slew of springs, and some paint.
Each which can be considered a different object.
The entire purpose of Polymorph ANY Object being restricted to ONE SINGLE OBJECT, is to prevent players from Polymorphing a "Treasure Pile" of copper into a "Treasure Pile" of 1 million coins of platinum.
If you start giving people this ridiculous idea that a concept is an entire object then you're going to have serious problems down the line with other spells.
Oh, and please don't scream.The Order of the Sacred Order is on! Feel free to watch if you like! PM if you are interested in joining, I've moved my game away from these moderators -
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2007-11-07, 11:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
Re: Polymorph Any Object: 100 cu. ft./level?!
The Order of the Sacred Order is on! Feel free to watch if you like! PM if you are interested in joining, I've moved my game away from these moderators -
Current DM: Me
Current Campaign: B2 Keep on the Borderlands :D
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2007-11-07, 11:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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2007-11-07, 11:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2006
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- Albany, NY
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Re: Polymorph Any Object: 100 cu. ft./level?!
[CENTER]So You Wanna Be A DM? A Potentially Helpful Guide
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2007-11-07, 11:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
Re: Polymorph Any Object: 100 cu. ft./level?!
Last edited by Dalboz of Gurth; 2007-11-07 at 11:25 AM.
The Order of the Sacred Order is on! Feel free to watch if you like! PM if you are interested in joining, I've moved my game away from these moderators -
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2007-11-07, 11:25 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
Re: Polymorph Any Object: 100 cu. ft./level?!
A few months of casting and you might be able to create a loud *POP* with the nuclear reaction you could start with them.
Edit: And splitting a single atom is not all that powerful. It takes many, many atom-splitting reactions built into a chain reaction to produce an explosion of any potency.Last edited by Indon; 2007-11-07 at 11:26 AM.
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2007-11-07, 11:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
Re: Polymorph Any Object: 100 cu. ft./level?!
OH ok :D
I think though people get the point. Polymorph an Object is made to allow people to transmute a giant block of granite, such as a granite wall produced by a mage escaping a party.
But it is not made to allow people to disrupt the foundation of a castle by polymorphing an entire wall that is made up of thousands of blocks of granite + mortar.The Order of the Sacred Order is on! Feel free to watch if you like! PM if you are interested in joining, I've moved my game away from these moderators -
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Current Campaign: B2 Keep on the Borderlands :D
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2007-11-07, 11:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2006
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- Albany, NY
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Re: Polymorph Any Object: 100 cu. ft./level?!
I weep for the catgirls who suffered for my failed attempt a joke...
Right. If you can't do that with transmute rock to mud, why with polymorph? Honestly though, have any of you ever seen a player try to go against the spirit of the rules as badly as the OP describes? I haven't... maybe I'm lucky.[CENTER]So You Wanna Be A DM? A Potentially Helpful Guide
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2007-11-07, 11:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2006
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Re: Polymorph Any Object: 100 cu. ft./level?!
Line of Sight means there is nothing obscuring your view of your target--no solid objects. If you can't draw a straight line between you and your target, you don't have line of sight. Since nothing is obstructing the line between you and an atom, the ability to see atomic structure isn't required.
And if you wanted to be picky, a Wizard could always Fabricate himself a Scanning Tunneling Microscope.Yotsubatar by Dr. Bath
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2007-11-07, 11:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
Re: Polymorph Any Object: 100 cu. ft./level?!
Kelleron the Brownie of Light comes to the rescue and joyfully lays on hands upon all of the catgirls who suffered.
Right. If you can't do that with transmute rock to mud, why with polymorph? Honestly though, have any of you ever seen a player try to go against the spirit of the rules as badly as the OP describes? I haven't... maybe I'm lucky.
I also had a fool try to do something similar with a similar spell in one of my games. Although I relented, he got more than he deserved and learned never to question me again. WUAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHALast edited by Dalboz of Gurth; 2007-11-07 at 11:39 AM.
The Order of the Sacred Order is on! Feel free to watch if you like! PM if you are interested in joining, I've moved my game away from these moderators -
Current DM: Me
Current Campaign: B2 Keep on the Borderlands :D
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2007-11-07, 11:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2006
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- Auburn Ma
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2007-11-07, 11:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
Re: Polymorph Any Object: 100 cu. ft./level?!
Line of Sight refers specifically to being able to view said targeted object. Period. A wizard cannot view an atom regardless of it's position without an atomic microscope. And unless a player demonstrates his capacity to understand the concept of atomic structures, Atomic Structures, and specific atoms within said structures, will remain a piece of out of character knowledge.
The Order of the Sacred Order is on! Feel free to watch if you like! PM if you are interested in joining, I've moved my game away from these moderators -
Current DM: Me
Current Campaign: B2 Keep on the Borderlands :D
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2007-11-07, 11:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2006
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Re: Polymorph Any Object: 100 cu. ft./level?!
Last edited by Catch; 2007-11-07 at 11:47 AM.
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2007-11-07, 11:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2006
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- Albany, NY
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Re: Polymorph Any Object: 100 cu. ft./level?!
[CENTER]So You Wanna Be A DM? A Potentially Helpful Guide
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2007-11-07, 12:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-11-07, 01:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
Re: Polymorph Any Object: 100 cu. ft./level?!
Spells which require you to view the object, and are thus affect by line of sight, are also affected by darkness spells or areas bereft of light -- any means by which you are prevented from viewing the object you are trying to magically manipulate prevent you from magically manipulating that object (providing the spell has a line of sight, or sight requirement attached).
The Order of the Sacred Order is on! Feel free to watch if you like! PM if you are interested in joining, I've moved my game away from these moderators -
Current DM: Me
Current Campaign: B2 Keep on the Borderlands :D
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2007-11-07, 01:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
Re: Polymorph Any Object: 100 cu. ft./level?!
The Order of the Sacred Order is on! Feel free to watch if you like! PM if you are interested in joining, I've moved my game away from these moderators -
Current DM: Me
Current Campaign: B2 Keep on the Borderlands :D