What should I try in ToB?

[Rad]

So, after reading a lot on it I'm finally to the point of giving ToB a real game try. The game is level 2 and is going to be very short (maybe we'll get to level 3; 4 tops). The party so far has no cleric and is not "optimized" except maybe for a psion (I hadn't seen the character sheets) but everybody has pretty high ability scores.

So... what class should I play? Crusader is tempting because of the lack of any other healing (barring the ranger finding a CLW wand, but remember: level 2); the recovery mechanic is awful but having to cope with what you draw can be fun. Warblade is cool and has high HP (again, no cleric) but no 1st level maneuver of his made me stand open-mouthed; the recovery method is great though, and Vital Recovery is better than Improved Thougness. Swordsage seems the coolest out there, but has low HP and MAD; also I doubt I'll recover maneuvers in combat very much.

Sooo... what do you think would be better as a first impression for ToB?

[Dhavaer]

You could always multiclass. Warblade/Crusader is pretty surviveable; take Stone Power to avoid damage from Steely Resolve. If you want ot single-class, I'm very, very fond of a Diamond Mind focused Warblade; Steel Wind, Sapphire Nightmare Blade and Moment of Perfect Mind make good level 1 maneuvers.

[Animefunkmaster]

Crusader.

An hp pool, good HD, a stance to heal... a strike that heals (unless your going twf, you will only get a single attack anyway).

Extra Granted Maneuver will help out a lot at low levels.

[Reel On, Love]

The Crusader recovery mechanic is actually the *best* of the lot. A random choice out of a pile of awesome is still awesome.

In a low-level, healing-deprived game, a Crusader will rock. Get a reach weapon, Combat Reflexes, and Improved Trip or Stand Still. You can use Martial Spirit stance for healing, or Iron Guard's Glare for damage mitigation.

[Rad]

Get a reach weapon, Combat Reflexes, and Improved Trip or Stand Still. You can use Martial Spirit stance for healing, or Iron Guard's Glare for damage mitigation.

I was thinking about that, but:
- I never used a reach weapon and I'm not sure about the tactics it needs. Can people step inside my reach without provoking AoO's through the diagonals?
- Improved Trip needs Combat Expertise. That bars getting Extra Granted Maneuver and Combat Reflexes or Stand Still.
Taking Stand Still and Combat Reflexes looks nice though... It makes it pretty hard to close in melee with me. Would Power Attack be a good choice at level 3 then?

EDIT: I'm leaning towards the Crusader; any hint on maneuvers other than Crusader's Strike?
Any advice on ability priorities? Do I really need Cha at this low level?

[Azerian Kelimon]

You should favor STR and CON, naturally. Some Wis is nice, since I remember a few strikes used it. Really, think of a cruesy as a pally, and you'll have what you need.

Now, I think that, if you take the healing strikes, you're already done. I personally play swordsages, since they kill-a-lot if you choose their maneuvers wisely (Child of shadows is a wise stance investment, plus you become an AC tank at level 2 if you have good WIS), but, since you need a cleric, cruesy is your best bet. Now, if I were to take feats, extra granted 'neuver is pretty good, as is Stone Power. It's too bad you have such a low level, since, with an extra feat, you could squeeze mightiness out of Dragon 'zine's Lady's Gambit.

[Keld Denar]

I like crusaders recovery mechanic. It requires no action, so you can keep using maneuvers till you run out, and then draw a new hand. And at low levels, its not like you are drawing from a huge deck. I was thinking of making a crusader for a friends game, but alas, player quantity issues. Dwarves make pretty good crusaders, if you neglect cha most of the time. The low movement speed is offset by the fact that most crusader moves are strikes, which take a standard action. Go with the heaviest armor you can afford (mountain plate RoS?), a good stout shield, and probably a Dwarven War Axe thanks to racial weapon proficiency. Armor scales poorly at high (bad) and low levels (good), so you'll be a veritable god of a tank between a high AC, high HP (from CON), and Steely Resolve/Furious Counterstrike. Go with primarily Devoted Spirit and Stone Dragon manuevers.

For feats, I'd stay away from PA at low levels. Especially if you go with a shield. Extra Manuever Known at 1st level wouldn't be bad, especially since its a short duration game. It doesn't synergize with the crusader recovery method very well though. I personally think this character screams out for the stone dragon pclass, so I'd take prereq feats for that myself, but you might never see it, so it probably won't be worth it. Hell, limited to low levels, Weapon Focus (Dwarven War Axe) might actually be worth it, since you don't have to worry about it scaling poorly into high levels. +1 to hit is +1 to hit...

[The Mormegil]

Actually, since at ECL 2 you haven't got anything but strikes, EGM isn't worth it. Really, you'll use only one strike at a time...

Crusader is good, but I prefer Warblade for recovery method (paired with a couple of strikes you are a good debuffer) and Swordsage for plain coolness, even if it's the worst class in the book, in my opinion (oh, yes, Time Stands Still + Inferno Blade + Raging Moongoose + TWF is really strong, but hell, it's like ECL 20!!! At that level all is broken!)

Anyway, GET WHITE RAVEN, expecially in melee groups (I think yours is one, isn't it?). That Leading the Attack is broken at low ECL (trade it later). And of course, if you want to be the damage dealer, get Martial Study (Burning Blade) since it's a boost, at next level you get Mountain Hammer and you have a normal+3d6+3 no hardness-no DR attack. If you were Warlade, you'll get Punishing Stance too, for another +1d6.
Tanking is the best bet for a Crusader, anyway, so I'd take Exotic Armor Proficiency (Mountain Plate) and Stone Power, you'll get a decent AC and 4 temporary hp per round, plus your pool, plus your stance, plus your strikes... Yeah, -2 to hit, well, I can afford it if I have +4 Str or the like... Especially with a caster willing to cast magic weapon.

[Rad]

my budget is pretty limited, so I doubt I'll be able to get more than a Banded Mail for armor (that's a point for the swordsage since the method for generating stats is brokenly good, so a goos Wis is likely).
I'd love dealing damage of course and the only low-level buff is in Desert Wind (another point for Swordsage). I do not like the Crusader recovery for "flavor" reasons but it is pretty efficient since he can just go through his maneuvers and have them refresh for free, plus the no-cleric thing... so Crusader (unless someone makes me change my mind again)

If I'm not mistaken, popular feats are:

- Martial Study (Burning Blade)
- Extra Granted Maneuver; which would also mean that I refresh more often.
- Combat Reflexes (+ reach weapon); which means no shield since most are 2-handed
- Stone Power; which requires me to get Stone Bones as a maneuver known, which I'm not sure about.

Stance: Martial Spirit
Maneuvers: Crusader's Strike, Leading the Attack, Vanguard Strike (is it the same as Leading the Attack? I see no difference, but looks good to have twice), and...?

What if I take a Swordsage and add Crusader's Stike or Martial Spirit with a feat? Burning Blade, Shadow Blade Technique, Sapphire Nightmare Blade and Wolf Fang Strike all look pretty good.

[Zincorium]

I was thinking about that, but:
- I never used a reach weapon and I'm not sure about the tactics it needs. Can people step inside my reach without provoking AoO's through the diagonals?

No, you threaten all squares between 5' and 10' feet away with a reach weapon, and that includes diagonals, and of course anytime they leave that threatened area you get an AoO unless they can avoid it somehow.

On a side note, a spiked chain or armor spikes in addition to your reach weapon allow you to legitimately threaten the 5' around you as well. So you won't have silly things like mages 5' stepping next to you to cast a spell.

- Improved Trip needs Combat Expertise. That bars getting Extra Granted Maneuver and Combat Reflexes or Stand Still.
Taking Stand Still and Combat Reflexes looks nice though... It makes it pretty hard to close in melee with me. Would Power Attack be a good choice at level 3 then?

Improved trip is nice but it's not a high priority. Stand still is useful in some instances, but against any enemy with reach it won't help you avoid attacks. Power attack is a good way for regular fighting characters to increase damage, but since martial strikes are your greatest weapon and it's better to hit with those and not waste them, you're not going to get the same mileage out of it.

Any advice on ability priorities? Do I really need Cha at this low level?

Cha isn't a dump stat, per se, but intelligence will reap rewards much quicker. As always for melee, strength and con are where it's at, with dexterity a distant third as far as physical stats go.

[Darrin]

I was thinking about that, but:
- I never used a reach weapon and I'm not sure about the tactics it needs. Can people step inside my reach without provoking AoO's through the diagonals?

Nope, you get to thwack 'em.

- Improved Trip needs Combat Expertise. That bars getting Extra Granted Maneuver and Combat Reflexes or Stand Still.
Taking Stand Still and Combat Reflexes looks nice though... It makes it pretty hard to close in melee with me. Would Power Attack be a good choice at level 3 then?

Power Attack is always good, but you can hold off until your BAB is higher. A Reach/AoO-based Crusader can be extremely potent, although it can be problematic picking up Thicket of Blades early... easiest with Martial Stance at ECL 6, I think. You'd want to take Stand Still and Combat Reflexes first.

EDIT: I'm leaning towards the Crusader; any hint on maneuvers other than Crusader's Strike?

I think Crusaders get 5 maneuvers to start with, but only 3 disciplines to choose from... so with only 6 maneuvers available, it's more like "which one don't I want?" And that would probably be either Vanguard Strike or Leading the Attack, which I think are almost identical. Both disciplines have very low prereqs overall, so it doesn't matter too much which one you pick.

For stances, start with Martial Spirit and pick up Leading the Charge at Crusader 2. This allows:

Round 1: Leading the Charge + Charging Minotaur for 2d6+IL extra damage.
Round 2: Switch to Martial Spirit + one of your strikes

Another combo you might want to consider that's doable at ECL 1... Travel Devotion (CompChamp) + Leading the Charge.

Round 1: Leading the Charge + Charging Minotaur
Round 2-11: Swift action to move away, Leading the Charge again

Once you get some iterative attacks, dip the ol' Lion Totem for pouncy-ness.

Any advice on ability priorities? Do I really need Cha at this low level?

An AoO build will need high Dex over Str. Cha buffs your will saves after Crusader 2, but unless you're going Ruby Knight Vindicator and Divine Impetus cheese, you can probably dump it.

[Townopolis]

I'd either go Crusader Combat Reflexes + Standstill +Thicket of Blades stance (later) to be a relatively unreachable reach master. Or, dwarven Crusader with a waraxe and shield and just AC tank.

If you really don't like the Crusader recovery method, I'd go Warblade. Get chainmail or a breastplate and focus on Diamond Mind, Stone Dragon, and White Raven maneuvers to be a combat leader/tankish.

I personally like Warblade the best, but they're all good (though 3/4 BAB just irritates me for some reason) and I've found a reason to play everything.

[Rad]

Thanks to you all for your advice; I left INT at 10, even if somebody said that it could be more useful in the immediate than Cha... my question is, what for?

Do I actually need any skills? it's not like any crusader low-level maneuvers or class abilities depend on any skills, even the so-called "key skills" of his disciplines.

My feats will probably be Extra Granted Maneuver (Cycle faster) and Combat Reflexes (Reach and Martial Spirit to get more healing). Stone Power might be the level 3 feat, martial study (some boost) is the main alternative.

[Dode]

Without a Cleric? I'd also recommend with Crusader in that case as they're the most self-sufficient (heal whenever you hit? Possibly the best melee ability in the game) of the 3 martial adept classes.