What is a high level monk like?

[Rfkannen]

In my ideal game a high level monk would be a character like one punch man, yojiro hanmam or jin taejin, the embodiment of bodily perfection, able to destroy mountains in a single kick. However that would be baaaaiscally impossible to balance lol.

So what IS a high level monk like? What fictional character best fits them? How do they feel in combat? How do they generally do? What is the monk's role at that level?

[MagneticKitty]

Battle field control (stuns) and mobility (reaching hard to reach enemies). They're not really meant to be top damage like your examples. They're good at stripping off legendary saves with "save or suck" things like stun and quivering palm and they're pretty good at hit and run.

[Walmcoli]

Yes - hit and run. In my OotA campaign we have a shadow monk who has boots of speed, a ring of free action and the mobile feat. He is impossible to pin down and rarely gets attacked. Combined with a monk’s immunity to poison, shadow step, slow fall, and ability to run up walls he is unstoppable in that setting.

[stoutstien]

In my ideal game a high level monk would be a character like one punch man, yojiro hanmam or jin taejin, the embodiment of bodily perfection, able to destroy mountains in a single kick. However that would be baaaaiscally impossible to balance lol.

So what IS a high level monk like? What fictional character best fits them? How do they feel in combat? How do they generally do? What is the monk's role at that level?

How high is high level? The monk is unique in that it's role shifts as it levels. A lv 17 monk is a different animal than it is one level later with empty body.

[Jon talks a lot]

IMO, it's pretty boring at any level, but that's a biased opinion, and what you find fun might be very different from what I do.

[Rfkannen]

How high is high level? The monk is unique in that it's role shifts as it levels. A lv 17 monk is a different animal than it is one level later with empty body.

Oh interesting! What is the difference? I am intrigued of the concept of their role shifting over time.

IMO, it's pretty boring at any level, but that's a biased opinion, and what you find fun might be very different from what I do.

What do you find boring about the monk, and what do you find fun about other characters?

[ezekielraiden]

For me, a high-level monk is around 75% Jackie Chan, 25% Monkey King. For the former, being able to get up to all sorts of hilarious AND awesome hijinks (just without needing to do 500 takes to get it right, obviously). For the latter, doing supernatural stuff, but always with the tiniest nod toward groundedness or at least some kind of "form" or "technique" that theoretically anyone could learn with enough discipline.

The high-level monk shouldn't be held to only what a non-wire-assisted Jackie Chan can do, but it also shouldn't be capable of directly replicating what Sun Wukong can do. The former would be unnaturally weak in a world of wish-casting wizards, clerics with divine intervention, and paladins who can literally transform into avatars of justice. The latter would be too strong because it would combine basically all the things I just mentioned, except all the time. (Which could work in some games, but it wouldn't work in D&D.)

It's also worth noting that monks shouldn't be stereotyped into only one personality. Some are stone-faced stoics, sure, but some take to heart the lesson of The Vinegar Tasters and thus always have a serene smile. Some are cranky old dudes, some are cranky young dudes, some are wise-cracking mentors, some are hotshot young masters...it all depends. And you can go in other directions as well; Charles Atlas superpowers are actually a lot easier to implement with a monk than most other classes due to the mystical-yet-grounded nature of Ki. (Barbarian is the other main choice; the two complement each other.) Despite claims to the contrary, the monk as a class is fairly versatile--no less versatile than paladin or barbarian, I'd argue.

[MaxWilson]

How high is high level? The monk is unique in that it's role shifts as it levels. A lv 17 monk is a different animal than it is one level later with empty body.

Yeah, Empty Body makes you incredibly tanky.

[Jon talks a lot]

What do you find boring about the monk, and what do you find fun about other characters?

Generally, I don't like ki, it's too close to other systems in-game.

Additionally, the monk is put in an odd position where it has the linear power growth that non-casters have, but the squishyness and other downsides that most casters have. It just makes it fairly weak and confusing to the point I don't enjoy playing them.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I DMed a Shadow Monk through Out of the Abyss, so 15th level or so. The player was experienced at RPGs, but a rookie to 5e, so he was doing things fairly effectively, but possibly not 'optimized'.
The character was effectively our Rogue as well since we didn't have one. I remember he tended to Dodge a lot; you definitely need a strategy to hit and not get hit, which I think made for a challenging experience. There were fights, particularly with terrain, where he outperformed the Paladin due to an ability to get where he needed, and others where it was the other way around. Saves were awesome once he had proficiency in everything and a Paladin aura to hang around in.
I think it was a good experience, but did require some attention from me to make sure to make sure there were opportunities to shine.

[Keravath]

The main role of higher level monks is battle field control. Damage comes second but with the large number of attacks they get they can still do decent damage (comparable to other classes as long as you leave out feats like Sharpshooter and Great Weapon Master).

The monk can quickly expend ki forcing creatures to make several stun saving throws in one turn. Even creatures with a high constitution will fail sometimes and not every creature has proficiency in con saves and a high constitution. Dragons, liches, fiends and many others can all be stunned which prevents the creature from taking an action until the end of the monk's next turn, they automatically fail strength and dex saving throws and everyone has advantage to hit them. For high level creatures this will force them to use legendary saving throws - once those are gone the creatures are much more vulnerable to party spellcasters as well as the monk if they manage to land another stun.

After that, each type of monk has a different niche - open hand can knock creatures prone or push them away using their flurry of blows. Shadow monks can use ki to cast spells and have a darkness/dim light based bonus action 60' teleport making them particularly mobile and able to get to the rear lines of opponents and directly engage spellcasters.

At level 14, monks pick up proficiency in all saving throws making them more resistant to magic. This is important in 5e since it is difficult to acquire additional saving throw proficiencies.

At high levels, since they don't use magical shields or armor, they have more difficulty increasing their AC. Bracers of defence/ring or cloak of protection are some of the few ways for a monk to increase their AC.

Anyway, when a monk can land a stun it prevents that enemy from acting and makes that enemy an ideal target for the rest of the party thus amplifying the party effectiveness.

[HPisBS]

It's always bugged me how the Monk's "Martial Arts" doesn't actually feel like martial arts at all. How is it that a Fighter can trip and disarm people with "maneuvers," but "martial arts" is just punching harder and more often?

Martial Arts should give you some special way to trip (or "throw") people, disarm people, and eventually intercept attacks. Sure, Shove prone and Disarm are already things anyone can (try to) do, but Battle Master gets Maneuvers to do it. Martial Arts should let a Monk be the best at it. Or at least equal to a Battle Master.

Something like (edited):

Spoiler: Martial Arts Techniques text

Show

Martial Arts Techniques (Enhances Martial Arts):
At level 2, you learn two of the following Martial Arts Techniques, which you can use in place of any of your normal melee attacks. You can use only one technique per attack. You learn the other two Techniques when you reach level 7 in this class.
Your Martial Arts save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Dexterity modifier.

- Impairing Strike: You make a light attack to impair the target’s movements or aim. If you hit, you deal damage equal to your Strength or Dexterity modifier and impose disadvantage on the next attack roll or Dexterity check the target makes before the end of its next turn.

- Unbalancing Strike: If you hit with this attack roll, the target takes damage equal to your Strength or Dexterity modifier, and the next Strength or Dexterity saving throw or ability check it makes before the end of its next turn is made with disadvantage.

- Disarming Technique: You force a creature that is no more than one size larger than you to make a Strength saving throw against your Martial Arts DC. If the creature fails, you force it to drop an item of your choice that it’s holding and deal damage equal to your Dexterity modifier.
A creature has advantage on this save if it is a size larger than you.
(RAW Disarm action is an attack roll against the target’s athletics / acrobatics check.)

- Throw: You force a creature that is no more than one size larger than you to make a Dexterity saving throw against your Martial Arts DC. If the creature fails, it falls prone and takes bludgeoning damage equal to your Dexterity modifier.
A creature has advantage on this save if it is a size larger than you.
(RAW Shove action replaces an attack with opposed athletics checks.)

(RAW Shove auto-succeeds when the target is incapacitated [as in stunned], but Disarm’s opposed check is unaffected. By contrast, stunned targets auto-fail Str & Dex saves.)

Since this thread is focused specifically on higher level monks, here's some defensive Techniques I think they should get at mid to high levels, since reliably blocking and dodging hits should be a staple of high-level martial artists:

Level 11
Reflexive Techniques:

- Deflect Blow: Whenever a creature within melee range makes a melee attack against you, you may use your reaction to attempt to deflect the blow. To do so, roll your Martial Arts die and subtract the result from the enemy’s attack roll.
You can choose to use this Technique after the creature makes its roll, but before the DM determines whether the attack succeeds or fails.

- Intercepting Fist: Whenever a creature within melee range makes a melee attack against you, you may use your reaction to attempt to counter-attack first. To do so, make an unarmed attack roll. If the result is higher than both the target's attack roll and AC, then your attack hits and the target's attack is lost. Otherwise, you miss, and the creature's attack is not lost.
You can choose to use this Technique after the creature makes its roll, but before the DM determines whether the attack roll succeeds or fails.

These two ^ are stronger than Dodge in that the 1st is fairly reliable and the 2nd basically gives you another attack, and neither have a high opportunity cost, action economy -wise. Yet they're also weaker than Dodge in that they only protect you from a single hit. So idk if they should cost ki, be limited to proficiency times / rest, or what. Which level they'd come online at may be a balancing factor. Lvl 11 is when Monks' damage starts falling behind, so I think this is fitting enough.

Regardless, those are some things I think Monks should get at some point to strengthen their so-called "martial arts," and make it actually feel like martial arts.


Edit:
It may be worth pointing out that the first techniques impose saves, rather than opposed checks, and that they're written to be used in place of any melee attack, rather than being limited to when "using the Attack action" like the standard shove is.



Edit 2: Added more stuff.

And I kinda feel like there should be free and ki-costing versions of the reactions. Like make Intercepting Fist cost 1 ki, then add:
Counter-Attack: When a creature misses you with a melee attack, you can make a melee attack against it with your reaction. You may substitute this attack with a Martial Arts Technique as usual.
Guard: Spend 1 ki point as a reaction to use Deflect Blow against all of a creature's melee attacks against you for that turn.

OR
Deflect Blows and Counter-Attack could go on lvl 11, then they could get upgraded to Guard and Intercepting Fist (no ki cost) as a capstone buff...

[Snails]

Generally, I don't like ki, it's too close to other systems in-game.

Additionally, the monk is put in an odd position where it has the linear power growth that non-casters have, but the squishyness and other downsides that most casters have. It just makes it fairly weak and confusing to the point I don't enjoy playing them.

I see it similarly. The monk is dependent on a limited resource like a spellcaster (Ki), yet that Ki scales up only slowly in potency (much less so than any spellcaster), and it is not even very flexible in what it does.

Looks like a class that is so very easy to play poorly. You are only impressive when you burn Ki, probably multiple Ki in a single round. But a monk without Ki to spend suh-ucks in a way that I would never complain about a barbarian who is not raging or a fighter battlemaster who is out of supremacy dice.

[HPisBS]

I see it similarly. The monk is dependent on a limited resource like a spellcaster (Ki), yet that Ki scales up only slowly in potency (much less so than any spellcaster), and it is not even very flexible in what it does.

Looks like a class that is so very easy to play poorly. You are only impressive when you burn Ki, probably multiple Ki in a single round. But a monk without Ki to spend suh-ucks in a way that I would never complain about a barbarian who is not raging or a fighter battlemaster who is out of supremacy dice.

I'll count this as +1 vote for giving Monks defensive Techniques that don't cost ki. lol

[Witty Username]

I liked casting fly on myself, soaring into the air, and trying to kill an ancient dragon with my bear hands. Say what you will of the way of the four elements but it is exceedingly extra. I think dragon ball(before Z or Super) is about right for what I want from a monk.

[Waazraath]

A shadow monk maybe like Zeratul, from StarCraft? Monks in general like Mortal Kombat characters, Liu Kang before defeating Shang Tsung?

[elyktsorb]

I played a high level monk multiclass (Land Druid/Open Hand Monk) I found myself doing a lot with even the little amount of ki I had, usually saving it for when I wanted to deal a lot of damage or needed to keep my distance.

Druid was a good mix due to the Monk's mobility, allowing me to keep up concentration spells while keeping myself from being a main target by moving into positions where I was less likely to be hit.

[mistajames]

Generally, they have below average AC (but are usually OK defensively due to great mobility and strong saves), poor damage (few relevant attack feats, few relevant magic items, limited or no access to common damage boosters), and poor battlefield control (Stunning Strike can apply multiple times/round, but targets Constitution, which most things are proficient in at these levels, and Legendary Resists are also common). They have a lot of movement speed and so can get where they want to be, but they aren't really much of a threat once they get there.

They have excellent saves though, and are often quite hard to kill. There is little incentive for NPCs to target them over other party members, though. We played a high-level campaign with a monk in the party... very much useless compared to other martials (who at least can do lots of damage) and full casters.

I wouldn't choose to play one in a high level campaign.

[Snails]

I'll count this as +1 vote for giving Monks defensive Techniques that don't cost ki. lol

Yes, please put me down as supporting that. I like the idea of tying these abilities to Reaction. I like the idea of tactics baked into the base class that are useful and say "Monk!!!" without paying through the nose (i.e. like the Barbarian gets Reckless without being tied to Rages per day)

There are some options for monks that are interesting, but everything under the sun costs Ki -- the monk is just nickeled and dimed all day long. At face value, you are doing pretty well if spending 1 point of Ki proves as useful as a 2nd level spell like Hold Person or Blindness. Count up your Ki and compare to the real spellcasters, and you can see the playing field is tilted against the monk at the outset. For tactically savvy players, there are ways to use Ki to bend the Action Economy in your favor, but that typically involves burning through multiple Ki in a single round.

In this context, I see Way of the Four Elements: Sweeping Cinder Strike, and I want to cry. 2 Ki for a measly 1st level spell? 3 Ki to upcast to 4d6 fire damage in a small area? To be blunt, spending 1 Ki as an Action to do 4d6 fire damage in a little cone is no better than "okay".

[Rfkannen]

Yes, please put me down as supporting that. I like the idea of tying these abilities to Reaction. I like the idea of tactics baked into the base class that are useful and say "Monk!!!" without paying through the nose (i.e. like the Barbarian gets Reckless without being tied to Rages per day)

There are some options for monks that are interesting, but everything under the sun costs Ki -- the monk is just nickeled and dimed all day long. At face value, you are doing pretty well if spending 1 point of Ki proves as useful as a 2nd level spell like Hold Person or Blindness. Count up your Ki and compare to the real spellcasters, and you can see the playing field is tilted against the monk at the outset. For tactically savvy players, there are ways to use Ki to bend the Action Economy in your favor, but that typically involves burning through multiple Ki in a single round.

In this context, I see Way of the Four Elements: Sweeping Cinder Strike, and I want to cry. 2 Ki for a measly 1st level spell? 3 Ki to upcast to 4d6 fire damage in a small area? To be blunt, spending 1 Ki as an Action to do 4d6 fire damage in a little cone is no better than "okay".

Yeah, high ki costs are why I am really liking the look of way of mercy, lettings hand of healing be tied to your flurry (which you were already going to do) was really smart, and after level 11 your ki costs go WAY down.

[MaxWilson]

Generally, they have below average AC (but are usually OK defensively due to great mobility and strong saves), poor damage (few relevant attack feats, few relevant magic items, limited or no access to common damage boosters), and poor battlefield control (Stunning Strike can apply multiple times/round, but targets Constitution, which most things are proficient in at these levels, and Legendary Resists are also common).

When people say things like this I always wonder what kinds of encounters their DMs construct at high level. Not saying it's not true, just saying it's not inevitable, and there are plenty of high-level monster fights that monks are highly effective in.

How about a lich, a nalfeshnee, and a couple of air elementals? (Deadly x2 for a 20th level party.) A DC 19 monk has a 40% chance per hit of stunning the Lich (+10 Con), a 35% chance per hit of stunning the nalfeshnee (+11), and an 80% chance per hit of stunning an air elemental (+2). With up to five attacks per round (e.g. Flurry + Opportunist for a Shadow Monk), a monk has excellent odds of stunning the lich on any given round (will stun the lich 1.13 times on average without advantage on attacks, 1.69 times per round if it's already prone or stunned or in some other way giving the monk advantage) even if the lich Shields instead of Counterspelling. Or it could nullify both air elementals if the lich isn't in range. Even the Nalfeshnee, while not the best target, is certainly worth stunning and will get stunned 1.4 times per round on average. (74% chance of stunning the Nalfeshnee each round, even if the Monk doesn't have advantage, or Bless, etc.).

The monk is definitely pulling his weight in that fight even though the monsters have truesight.

What about a pair of death knights (Deadly for 20th level)? A DC 19 monk has a 65% chance of stunning a Death Knight with each hit. With Empty Body he can have advantage for an 84% chance to hit, times 65% chance per hit, equals 54% chance of attack of stunning the Death Knight. (1-0.54)^5 ~= 0.02, so there's only 2% chance for the Death Knight to avoid stunning. There's a pretty good chance the monk can stun both Death Knights every round for as long as his ki holds up.

3 Beholders is also a Deadly fight for level 20 PCs, and they're even more vulnerable to Stunning Strike than Death Knights: +4 to Con saves, AC 18.

Honestly the problem IMO with high-level monks is exactly the opposite: they have trouble with swarms of lower-CR monsters (if they're not Elemonks). A dozen Wraiths (Deadly for 4 level 20 PCs) will be a harder fight for four monks than 3 Beholders.

One of these days I'd like to run an all-monk party...

[HPisBS]

Yeah, high ki costs are why I am really liking the look of way of mercy, lettings hand of healing be tied to your flurry (which you were already going to do) was really smart, and after level 11 your ki costs go WAY down.

Yeah, all Monk subclasses need at least something to do that's worthwhile, but doesn't cost ki.

Spoiler: Partially due to that, I'd say their power rankings are roughly:

Show

Astral Self
Mercy
Open Hand / Shadow
Kensei / Long Death
Drunken Master
Sun Soul
4 Elements

I think dragon ball(before Z or Super) is about right for what I want from a monk.

Yeah, I like the idea of making after-images and simple ki blasts. Except for kamehamehas that can flatten mountains or destroy the moon, I'd say that had a pretty good power level for what a lvl 20 Monk should be.

To me, Ultra Instinct -like defenses are what I think should be central to strong Monks. Evasion, Diamond Soul, and Empty Body all do their part, but I've always wanted some martial feeling defenses.

Yes, please put me down as supporting that. I like the idea of tying these abilities to Reaction. I like the idea of tactics baked into the base class that are useful and say "Monk!!!" without paying through the nose (i.e. like the Barbarian gets Reckless without being tied to Rages per day)

Yay! :D


Edit:

One of these days I'd like to run an all-monk party...

Shadow for stealth, Mercy for healing, Astral Self for dpr, and... I guess 4E / Sun Soul for blasting, just so you'd have some way to deal with hordes.

[MaxWilson]

Yeah, all Monk subclasses need at least something to do that's worthwhile, but doesn't cost ki.

I would say that all Monk characters need something interesting to do without spending ki, but it doesn't have to come from their subclass. One key to having a good time with an Elemonk, in my pre-Tasha's experience, is to pick up a feat like Prodigy (Athletics) so that you can grapple/prone vs. small groups of enemies without spending ki, and therefore have plenty of ki left when it comes time to Stunning Strike a big scary enemy or Fireball a huge group of enemies. Similarly, Kensei monks can be fun with Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert.

Without spending chargen resources you can also use DMG Disarm, throw nets, or use magic items (e.g. a Shadow Monk who is lucky enough to find a Wand of Web can attune it, because he's a spellcaster).

[HPisBS]

I would say that all Monk characters need something interesting to do without spending ki, but it doesn't have to come from their subclass. One key to having a good time with an Elemonk, in my pre-Tasha's experience, is to pick up a feat like Prodigy (Athletics) so that you can grapple/prone vs. small groups of enemies without spending ki, and therefore have plenty of ki left when it comes time to Stunning Strike a big scary enemy or Fireball a huge group of enemies. Similarly, Kensei monks can be fun with Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert.

Without spending chargen resources you can also use DMG Disarm, throw nets, or use magic items (e.g. a Shadow Monk who is lucky enough to find a Wand of Web can attune it, because he's a spellcaster).

So a Monk can do, without /rest resources, what literally any character can do without such resources. (Just not very well in the case of shoving prone, as they "should" dump Str and have little room for feats). What a high bar that meets. Huge selling point, there.

The supposed martial artist class ought to actually be good at knocking people down and stuff. Not have to go rely on feats (which already doesn't jive well with their MADness) just to be passable.

(e.g. a Shadow Monk who is lucky enough to find a Wand of Web can attune it, because he's a spellcaster).

Is he, though? Doesn't "spellcaster" mean... the spellcasting feature? Or is the ability to cast a single racial spell enough to meet that requirement?

[MaxWilson]

So a Monk can do what literally any character can do (just not very well in the case of shoving prone, as they "should" dump Str and have little room for feats). What a high bar they meet.

Nitpick: Monks are unusually good at DMG Disarm due to large number of attacks, and they get more benefit than usual out of grappling because unlike a Fighter they don't lose any AC or offensive output while grappling. (Also, Stunning Strike synergizes with grappling/shoving prone because a stunned target autofails grapple/shove contests, per errata.)

That's a nitpick though because my main point was the one you ignored: it's necessary for the character to have good ki-free default actions, not the class. So the question becomes, "which Monk are you talking about?"

Is he, though? Doesn't "spellcaster" mean... the spellcasting feature? Or is the ability to cast a single racial spell enough to meet that requirement?

AFB but IIRC the DMG says the ability to cast spells is enough. It doesn't have to be Pact Magic or Spellcasting specifically--could be a racial spell, Shadow Monk's Shadow Magic, whatever.

[stoutstien]

When people say things like this I always wonder what kinds of encounters their DMs construct at high level. Not saying it's not true, just saying it's not inevitable, and there are plenty of high-level monster fights that monks are highly effective in.

How about a lich, a nalfeshnee, and a couple of air elementals? (Deadly x2 for a 20th level party.) A DC 19 monk has a 40% chance per hit of stunning the Lich (+10 Con), a 35% chance per hit of stunning the nalfeshnee (+11), and an 80% chance per hit of stunning an air elemental (+2). With up to five attacks per round (e.g. Flurry + Opportunist for a Shadow Monk), a monk has excellent odds of stunning the lich on any given round (will stun the lich 1.13 times on average without advantage on attacks, 1.69 times per round if it's already prone or stunned or in some other way giving the monk advantage) even if the lich Shields instead of Counterspelling. Or it could nullify both air elementals if the lich isn't in range. Even the Nalfeshnee, while not the best target, is certainly worth stunning and will get stunned 1.4 times per round on average. (74% chance of stunning the Nalfeshnee each round, even if the Monk doesn't have advantage, or Bless, etc.).

The monk is definitely pulling his weight in that fight even though the monsters have truesight.

What about a pair of death knights (Deadly for 20th level)? A DC 19 monk has a 65% chance of stunning a Death Knight with each hit. With Empty Body he can have advantage for an 84% chance to hit, times 65% chance per hit, equals 54% chance of attack of stunning the Death Knight. (1-0.54)^5 ~= 0.2, so there's only 2% chance for the Death Knight to avoid stunning. There's a pretty good chance the monk can stun both Death Knights every round for as long as his ki holds up.

3 Beholders is also a Deadly fight for level 20 PCs, and they're even more vulnerable to Stunning Strike than Death Knights: +4 to Con saves, AC 18.

Honestly the problem IMO with high-level monks is exactly the opposite: they have trouble with swarms of lower-CR monsters (if they're not Elemonks). A dozen Wraiths (Deadly for 4 level 20 PCs) will be a harder fight for four monks than 3 Beholders.

One of these days I'd like to run an all-monk party...

All monk party of water walking pirates.

[HPisBS]

Nitpick: Monks are unusually good at DMG Disarm due to large number of attacks, and they get more benefit than usual out of grappling because unlike a Fighter they don't lose any AC or offensive output while grappling. (Also, Stunning Strike synergizes with grappling/shoving prone because a stunned target autofails grapple/shove contests, per errata.)

Good point on the Disarm.

But it seems you're mistaken about the grappling and shove. Being stunned only means auto-failing Str & Dex saves; grapple and shove are contested checks. For these often-forgotten attack substitutions, stunning an enemy only helps you to disarm them, and only because you'd have advantage on your attack. (But they'd still make their check as normal.)

I know, it makes tons of sense, but that's how it's written.

____
Edit: Now I see you said "per errata." I guess what I'm reading must not have incorporated it.
Edit 2: No, it seems I just overlooked the line about auto-success if the target's incapacitated.

This honestly just reinforces my frustration with Monks. Contested athletics checks don't exactly scream "standard Monk," so it's extremely easy to overlook, even with that errata. It's also annoying how those actions are written to only work with the Attack action, rather than with any melee attack, which means a Monk's bonus action attacks don't count.

... it's necessary for the character to have good ki-free default actions, not the class. So the question becomes, "which Monk are you talking about?"

Especially when a class's subclasses tend to transform the way you play as much as a Monk's does, you tend to want to actually use your subclass.

OH gets to add save-based "shoves" to their FoB for free, and weak as they may be, their lvl 6 and 11 features don't cost ki, either. Similar thing for Mercy. Shadow gets to teleport / go invisible for free in dim light or darkness. Long Death gets some free thp and a free 1-round fear effect. Astral and Even Sun Soul gets a little something to do without burning extra ki. 4E, though? Everything costs ki (save for the prestidigitation-like Elemental Attunement).

[MaxWilson]

Especially when a class's subclasses tend to transform the way you play as much as a Monk's does, you tend to want to actually use your subclass.

OH gets to add save-based "shoves" to their FoB for free, and weak as they may be, their lvl 6 and 11 features don't cost ki, either. Similar thing for Mercy. Shadow gets to teleport / go invisible for free in dim light or darkness. Long Death gets some free thp and a free 1-round fear effect. Astral and Even Sun Soul gets a little something to do without burning extra ki. 4E, though? Everything costs ki (save for the prestidigitation-like Elemental Attunement).

You don't have to use your subclass every round though to have fun with it. Does a Samurai use Fighting Spirit every round? Does a Battlemaster spend superiority dice every round? Does a Diviner use Portent every round? And yet they matter.

IME as long as you have good ki-free options to choose from, you have lots of ki to play around with when you DO want to spend ki on Fireball or Stunning Strike or whatever. Elemonk winds up using ki less frequently than a Shadow Monk or Long Death Monk but getting more bang for the buck when they do (especially with Patient Defense and Evasion--Elemonk can act as their own stalking horse to draw a bunch of enemies and then Fireball their own position). IME. But this brings us back to encounter construction and wondering how other DMs build their adventures... Elemonk would be relatively lame if PCs never fought more than one monster at a time, but relatively OP if they never fought less than twenty.

[minute]

It's always bugged me how the Monk's "Martial Arts" doesn't actually feel like martial arts at all. How is it that a Fighter can trip and disarm people with "maneuvers," but "martial arts" is just punching harder and more often?

Martial Arts should give you some special way to trip (or "throw") people, disarm people, and eventually intercept attacks. Sure, Shove prone and Disarm are already things anyone can (try to) do, but Battle Master gets Maneuvers to do it. Martial Arts should let a Monk be the best at it. Or at least equal to a Battle Master.

Something like

Spoiler: Martial Arts Techniques text

Show

Martial Arts Techniques (Enhances Martial Arts):
When you make a melee attack against a creature that's no more than one size larger than you, you may forego the attack and damage rolls to attempt a Martial Arts Technique instead. Your Martial Arts save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Dexterity modifier.
A creature has advantage on this save if it is a size larger than you.
- Disarm: If the target fails a Strength Saving Throw against your Martial Arts DC, you force it to drop an item of your choice that it’s holding.
- Throw: If the target fails a Dexterity Saving Throw against your Martial Arts DC, the creature falls prone and takes 1 point of bludgeoning damage.

Since this thread is focused specifically on higher level monks, here's some defensive Techniques I think they should get at mid to high levels, since reliably blocking and dodging hits should be a staple of high-level martial artists:

- Deflect Blow: Whenever a creature within melee range makes a melee attack against you, you may use your reaction to attempt to deflect the blow. To do so, roll your Martial Arts die and subtract the result from the enemy’s attack roll.
You can choose to use this feature after the creature makes its roll, but before the DM determines whether the attack roll succeeds or fails.

- Intercepting Fist: Whenever a creature within melee range makes a melee attack against you, you may use your reaction to attempt to counter-attack first. To do so, make an unarmed attack roll. If the result is higher than both the target's attack roll, and AC, then your attack hits and the target's attack is lost. Otherwise, you miss, and the creature's attack is not lost.
You can choose to use this feature after the creature makes its roll, but before the DM determines whether the attack roll succeeds or fails.

These two ^ are stronger than Dodge in that the 1st is fairly reliable and the 2nd basically gives you another attack, and neither have a high opportunity cost, action economy -wise. Yet also weaker than Dodge in that they only protect you from a single hit. So idk if they should cost ki, be limited to proficiency times / rest, or what. Which level they'd come online at may be a balancing factor somehow.

Regardless, those are some things I think Monks should get at some point to strengthen their so-called "martial arts," and make it actually feel like martial arts.

I didn't even think about this but I completely agree. I think the Open Hand monk somewhat does this with their level 3 ability, but I agree that all monks should have some more options to really capitalize on that martial arts feel. Deflect Missiles is is very situational but effective when it comes up, especially if you can convince your DM to be somewhat lenient with what are considered "missiles". Other than that, and the things you already mentioned (Dodge and Dash), there's not much that showcases the martial ability of the monks

[HPisBS]

You don't have to use your subclass every round though to have fun with it. Does a Samurai use Fighting Spirit every round? Does a Battlemaster spend superiority drive every round? Does a Diviner use Portent every round?

IME as long as you have good ki-free options to choose from, you have lots of ki to play around with when you DO want to spend ki on Fireba or Stunning Strike or whatever.

Spoiler: We're kinda derailing the thread, so I'll condense my response.

Show

That's not what I'm saying. Even OH won't be using OH Techniques every round, nor will Shadow be teleporting every round, nor will Long Death get/do its free stuff every round.

My view is that subclasses need something they can do regularly. 4E is particularly bad about every option costing ki, and most options either only lasting that one round, or being too expensive, or both.

But, complaints about particular subclasses aside, the Monk as a whole could do with some TLC (as could other martial classes, as plenty of threads have discussed). I'm kinda partial to those martial arts techniques I drafted. As far as shove, etc go: sure, they're a thing you can do. But they use Str: Athletics and Monks aren't really designed for that. To me, at least, it feels like they need options that're tailor-made for their design.

... And it just really, really irritates me that tripping/sweeping/throwing isn't a part of the Monk's "martial arts" lol

... all monks should have some more options to really capitalize on that martial arts feel
-snip-

Exactly.