What is a high level monk like?

[dmhelp]

For tashas I think Mercy seems better than Astral. Or maybe I’m over valuing a no save poison condition every turn? I’d rather be more MAD for that.

[Evaar]

For tashas I think Mercy seems better than Astral.

I agree. Hands of Harm is a straight upgrade to Flurry, its a substantial increase to their effective DPR. Then they get to add Poisoned on top of that.

[Thunderous Mojo]

The Astral Monk only rents replacing their Strength Modifer for their Wisdom Modifer. To have Full Astral Arms Coverage, your premium cost is 6 Ki points per hour. You have to spend more KI if you add Visage of the Astral Self.

I generally assume that a power that lasts for 10 minutes, is roughly about 2 encounters...presuming time in between is needed to scout, search for traps and treasure, secret doors etc.

Of course, this is a presumption, so actual results may vary.

In terms of action economy, the Way of the Astral Self has similar issues to the Barbarian class, only monks have more uses for their Bonus Actions. The 10 minute duration, means that an Astral Monk has a better chance to prep in advance, but at some point the monk is going to start combat without their Astral Self up.

Dumping Str, means this monk can't jump. That, admittedly won't matter to some. No monk can truly neglect Dexterity, the sub-class just doesn't seem actually that Single Attribute Dependent.

From a novelty standpoint, one could theoretically Multi-class in Fighter or other class that receives a Fighting Style and take the Unarmed Fighting Style and wear armor. This isn't a great idea, but it might be situationally useful if you had low stats outside Wisdom, and needed the AC boost.

[HPisBS]

The Astral Monk only rents replacing their Strength Modifer for their Wisdom Modifer. To have Full Astral Arms Coverage, your premium cost is 6 Ki points per hour. You have to spend more KI if you add Visage of the Astral Self....

Why do you think that?

"... As a bonus action, you can spend 5 ki points to summon the arms, visage, and body of your astral self and awaken it for 10 minutes...."

... No monk can truly neglect Dexterity, the sub-class just doesn't seem actually that Single Attribute Dependent....

Nothing is without its drawbacks. But actually playing it from lvl 1 up to whatever, an Astral Monk gets to pump his to-hit and damage while also pumping his ki save dc. I notice there's a tendency to discount - or outright overlook - the process of actually reaching those final builds, the experience you'd have at lvl 5, etc. Being less MAD like the Astral is may or may not transform your final build, but you should certainly expect it to change those middle levels, where most actual play seems to occur.

Being able to enjoy the benefits of 20 Wis while also enjoying the primary benefits of 20 Dex (in melee) as early as lvl 8 strikes me as being pretty significant.

[MaxWilson]

Why do you think that?

"... As a bonus action, you can spend 5 ki points to summon the arms, visage, and body of your astral self and awaken it for 10 minutes...."

5 ki for ten minutes is 30 ki per hour. ThunderousMojo was just talking about the arms, 6 ki per hour.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Why do you think that?
"... As a bonus action, you can spend 5 ki points to summon the arms, visage, and body of your astral self and awaken it for 10 minutes...."

That is spending 5 Ki points to get all of the Way of the Astral Hands subclass abilities up for 10 minutes. To access everything but the Capstone subclass power it costs 2 Ki Points for 10 minutes of usage. What is 2 Ki points times 6 segments of 10 minutes increments?

An Astral Monk does not freely substitute Wisdom modifier for the Dex and Str modifier...they have to pay Ki points for 10 minute increments.

What are you claiming the subclass does? I'm confused at what you are intending to say. I would appreciate some clarification...as I am not at all sure what you are stating.

Nothing is without its drawbacks. But actually playing it from lvl 1 up to whatever, an Astral Monk gets to pump his to-hit and damage while also pumping his ki save dc. I notice there's a tendency to discount - or outright overlook - the process of actually reaching those final builds, the experience you'd have at lvl 5, etc. Being less MAD like the Astral is may or may not transform your final build, but you should certainly expect it to change those middle levels, where most actual play seems to occur.

I don't want this to sound snippy, but isn't this just theory? Have you played an Astral Monk from 1st level to 20th level already?

Presuming you haven't, aren't you HPisBS doing exactly what you'd stated when you wrote this: "I notice there's a tendency to discount - or outright overlook - the process of actually reaching those final builds, the experience you'd have at lvl 5, etc".

I will gladly defer to your expertise, if you have played an Astral Monk up to any level. I would love to hear what actual play with the subclass is like, and what the campaign assumptions are.

In my experience, adventuring parties get ambushed from time to time. In my experience, adventuring parties have,(occasionally), time considerations that inhibit them from always being able to take a short rest whenever they want.

Being able to enjoy the benefits of 20 Wis while also enjoying the primary benefits of 20 Dex (in melee) as early as lvl 8 strikes me as being pretty significant.

One can have this with any monk using the Default Stat Array from the PHB. One just needs a +2/+1 race, or be a Vhuman and take an appropriate feat.

It has been a long arduous day, so I want to issue a preemptive Mea Culpa, if this post has any overtones of rudeness. I'm intending to ask for clarification. I appreciate the opportunity for the discussion.🖖

[Witty Username]

Is the Way of the Astral Monk, "the most powerful monk"?
(I am asking the above as a question, and not as a rhetorical device)

I would say no. Astral Monk has a frustration that it is Ki hungry, and its most interesting ability, wis for unarmed strikes and strength checks, is weak when you first get it and it is debatable whether or not it is effective generally, agnostic of your opinions of other monk features. The main grapple plan for monks is stunning strike as I understand it, and the whole point is that the target auto-fails if stunned. Meaning the grapple advantage is for when you are trying to conserve ki, and this ability requires ki. For unarmed strikes, you will need dex investment anyway for your first 2 levels at least, likely more for your off-arm time, and you still probably want at least a 16 for AC purposes, so you end up with the same 20/16 split monks would already have so madness is not really reduced. Visage has minimal combat application, it reads more as utility, which is fine until you get to later levels and realize it gates other combat features behind it. And Awakened Astral self is a gluttonous ability when it comes to ki, it plus empty body is around half your ki pool. if you are committed to using one or the other then you have to decide when it is worth using over empty body(probably when you want the 10 minutes as opposed to 1 is my guess, and if you need your action in the first round of combat for something). There may be something I am missing, but it looks like this doesn't get much until Tier 3 and what you do get doesn't look like it is on par with the other monk sub classes.

[Amechra]

OK, what are you doing in your games where you would have to have your Arms up constantly? You should be fine if you turn them on when you need to lift stuff, and just live with your low Strength otherwise.

[Witty Username]

I think that depends on what you are using the arms for. If you are using them to strong man, lifting gates out of the way, climbing cliffs, etc. then you are probably fine with them off most of the time. If you are using them for combat (I wouldn't recommend it most of the time), probably 1 ki every 1-2 fights depending on your day. If both you may be using a lot of ki over the course of an adventuring day.
What are people's opinion of the aoe damage? My take is that it is probably too low to see significant use.

[Thunderous Mojo]

My largest criticism of the 2x Martial Arts die AoE power is the layout of the subclass power buries the ability in a paragraph of text. I think a few players will skim the book and forget they even have an AoE on the turn they summon the arms.

Beside, this minor objection to the layout of the text...an AoE that:
-does an escalating amount of damage as the character advances in monk levels
-has a 10' range, and only damages creatures you chose.
.... Is a decent ribbon-like ability.

Thematically it might have been interesting to have the AoE be an attack akin to a Hunter Ranger's Whirlwind power...but there would be some power level objections that would probably arise.

The Way of the Astral Self is Amara from Borderlands 3. 😁
https://www.destructoid.com/ul/55232...bs-noscale.jpg
The subclass just lacks phaselock.

A Wildshaped Monk/Druid with the Astral Arms active, would be a frightening sight. One might not even need the 6th level ability of Wisdom of Spirit to get advantage on an Intimidation checks.

I would give an irate squirrel with spectral arms, and a wisdom based bite attack a wide berth, if I saw it at my local park.😀

The wording of the Astral Arms ability doesn't preclude combining the ability with a Barbarian's Rage ability. One still can be making a Strength melee weapon attack, with the arms, to satisfy the Rage requirements, and then substitute their Wisdom modifier per Arms of the Astral self.

[x3n0n]

I think that depends on what you are using the arms for. If you are using them to strong man, lifting gates out of the way, climbing cliffs, etc. then you are probably fine with them off most of the time. If you are using them for combat (I wouldn't recommend it most of the time), probably 1 ki every 1-2 fights depending on your day. If both you may be using a lot of ki over the course of an adventuring day.
What are people's opinion of the aoe damage? My take is that it is probably too low to see significant use.

My impression: Astral Self is weaker than some other Monks at levels 3-4, but it gets a lot better in tier 2. Wis 20 at level 8 makes stun significantly more likely, and the unarmed damage die is not as crappy (and will continue to improve). Mobile/disengage isn't required as often when you have reach and a good shove.

(Stun efficiency differential presumably drops in tier 3 as the other subclasses likely bump Wis.)

The AoE is double-purpose: payback for a potential lost bonus action at the beginning of combat, plus an anti-mob tool against really weak mooks.

I actually think of this as a *less* ki-hungry subclass in combat (in tier 2 and later). Say 1 ki tax per encounter or pair of encounters (tax goes up to 2 in tier 3), for reach and a good shove (fewer Step of the Wind) and fewer failed stuns.

Outside combat, being competent at Athletics is good.

[Witty Username]

My largest criticism of the 2x Martial Arts die AoE power is the layout of the subclass power buries the ability in a paragraph of text. I think a few players will skim the book and forget they even have an AoE on the turn they summon the arms.

Beside, this minor objection to the layout of the text...an AoE that:
-does an escalating amount of damage as the character advances in monk levels
-has a 10' range, and only damages creatures you chose.
.... Is a decent ribbon-like ability.

Thematically it might have been interesting to have the AoE be an attack akin to a Hunter Ranger's Whirlwind power...but there would be some power level objections that would probably arise.

The Way of the Astral Self is Amara from Borderlands 3. 😁
https://www.destructoid.com/ul/55232...bs-noscale.jpg
The subclass just lacks phaselock.

A Wildshaped Monk/Druid with the Astral Arms active, would be a frightening sight. One might not even need the 6th level ability of Wisdom of Spirit to get advantage on an Intimidation checks.

I would give an irate squirrel with spectral arms, and a wisdom based bite attack a wide berth, if I saw it at my local park.😀

The wording of the Astral Arms ability doesn't preclude combining the ability with a Barbarian's Rage ability. One still can be making a Strength melee weapon attack, with the arms, to satisfy the Rage requirements, and then substitute their Wisdom modifier per Arms of the Astral self.

Making a unarmed strike with the arms at each creature in range I think would be about the same(2d4 vs 1d4+3/2d6 vs 1d6+4/2d8 vs 1d8+5). that is about a half point increase but you lose out on half damage on a miss, it might involve more rolling though. There is the stun interaction with that, make of that what you will.

I like the image a lot with the astral squirrel, Monk 1 already is reasonable on a moon druid so this would be 2 more levels in monk for that. I think the benefits are mostly the look though.

I don't think you can combine the arms with the bonus damage of rage and still use your wisdom modifier("attack with a melee weapon using strength"), you could get the advantage on strength checks though if that is what you mean.

My impression: Astral Self is weaker than some other Monks at levels 3-4, but it gets a lot better in tier 2. Wis 20 at level 8 makes stun significantly more likely, and the unarmed damage die is not as crappy (and will continue to improve). Mobile/disengage isn't required as often when you have reach and a good shove.

(Stun efficiency differential presumably drops in tier 3 as the other subclasses likely bump Wis.)

The AoE is double-purpose: payback for a potential lost bonus action at the beginning of combat, plus an anti-mob tool against really weak mooks.

I actually think of this as a *less* ki-hungry subclass in combat (in tier 2 and later). Say 1 ki tax per encounter or pair of encounters (tax goes up to 2 in tier 3), for reach and a good shove (fewer Step of the Wind) and fewer failed stuns.

Outside combat, being competent at Athletics is good.

I think the issue in tier 2 is this is a 5% increase until 8th for a 10% increase on stunning strike success rate, so you are using this when you plan to use stunning strike, essentially investing your first attempt into a 5%/10% increase on your attempts in the rest of the combat. Running the numbers a bit (lets just assume 60% success rate vs 55%/50% for a stun and 60% for hitting with an attack generally). Assuming you are trying to stun the target. astral will bonus action prep and make 2 attacks trying to stun, a normal monk will make 3 attempts (just going to use 60% for the hit rate on attacks). the astral self will have a 36% chance of landing a stun each each attack, about 59% for the attack line. The standard monk will have 33% and 30%, about 70% and 66% respectively. the following rounds astral self will have about a 74% chance.
So about(opposite of not, over the two rounds)1 - (41 * .26) = 89% astral vs 1-(.30^2) = 91%. and 1-(.34^2) = 88% standard monk. This is assuming you are not using flurry either way.

[x3n0n]

I think the issue in tier 2 is this is a 5% increase until 8th for a 10% increase on stunning strike success rate, so you are using this when you plan to use stunning strike, essentially investing your first attempt into a 5%/10% increase on your attempts in the rest of the combat. Running the numbers a bit (lets just assume 60% success rate vs 55%/50% for a stun and 60% for hitting with an attack generally). Assuming you are trying to stun the target. astral will bonus action prep and make 2 attacks trying to stun, a normal monk will make 3 attempts (just going to use 60% for the hit rate on attacks). the astral self will have a 36% chance of landing a stun each each attack, about 59% for the attack line. The standard monk will have 33% and 30%, about 70% and 66% respectively. the following rounds astral self will have about a 74% chance.
So about(opposite of not, over the two rounds)1 - (41 * .26) = 89% astral vs 1-(.30^2) = 91%. and 1-(.34^2) = 88% standard monk. This is assuming you are not using flurry either way.

At a glance, the math looks fine for likelihood of "stun at least once over the first two rounds" being about the same for both and quite high. Note that this calculation is not quite the same as "expected number of ki spent to get first stun". (More stuns per 10 minutes leads to cheaper results for AS, fewer is clearly better for the Monk that doesn't need to bring up the arms.)

My "ki-lite" impression is based more on the other things I mentioned: being able to shove prone or grapple without ki and being able to stay at 10', allowing for "free Disengage" much of the time instead of spending a feat on Mobile or ki on Step of the Wind. That is, when people complain that a Monk who is not spending at least 1 ki every round is "useless", this Monk has more stuff to do in combat without spending ki.

[Thunderous Mojo]

.
I don't think you can combine the arms with the bonus damage of rage and still use your wisdom modifier("attack with a melee weapon using strength"), you could get the advantage on strength checks though if that is what you mean.

A permissive reading of the text that would apply for both a monk's martial arts ability and the Arms of the Astral Self ability, is the type of attack itself does not change, the specific abilities simply allow monks to apply ability score modifiers that normally would not apply.

Any monk wielding a club can use their Dex modifier instead of Str for the particulars of the modifier that is used, but can still claim it is a STR attack. The monk just has greater choices in what ability modifier is used. Monks functionally get Finesse for their melee weapons, without actually applying Finesse.

As I stated, this is a permissive reading. Though, I think it is just permitting fun for an unlikely multi-class combination, (barbarian/monk).