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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Fun, breezy gish class with infinite spells

    Spellblade

    I was looking at the Pathfinder magus and found it too complicated. And like the duskblade, its per-day casting is frustrating because it means you run out at some point and just become a sub-par fighter.

    So this is my stab at an alternative. It's intended as an easy-bake character that's friendly to new players and players coming from 5e.


    Please critique.
    - Are the mana points/prepared spell numbers sufficient or too stingy?
    - How much imbalance is created by the at-will spells?
    Last edited by Elves; 2021-03-09 at 12:38 AM.
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    Default Re: Fun, breezy gish class with infinite spells

    Is this for Age of Warriors?
    Also is this based off of the githyanki gish?
    How do you balance infinite spells?
    Last edited by D&D_Fan; 2020-07-10 at 07:10 PM.

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    Default Re: Fun, breezy gish class with infinite spells

    No, this is different.

    Gish is just a general word for any class or build that mixes magic and mundane fighting. And yes, it traces to the githyanki stuff.

    They get infinite spells, but the spells they get are mostly direct damage and short-range teleportation, not the things that really make a spellcaster powerful. A standard 3.5e gish build with 9th level casting and 16 BAB could eat this class for lunch despite getting fewer spells per day. Or at least that's what I'm intending. But maybe it doesn't work out that way which is why I'm looking for feedback.
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    Default Re: Fun, breezy gish class with infinite spells

    Wouldn't the 3.5 Warlock have been an easy basis to use for infinite spells?

    Jumps of +2 at a time in the Mage Armor progression seem weird to me. Maybe +1 every 3 levels instead? And your table has the last increase listed at level 16, while the text says it's at level 15.

    Alternately, you could give a choice of 2 options. One gives proficiency with light armor, no arcane spell failure in light armor, and bestows a scaling enhancement bonus on any armor you wear, for as long as you wear it. That would be nice because you can benefit from armor special abilities, like Greater Fortification. The other option could be more or less what you already have. That one would be nice because you don't have to look like you're wearing armor.

    Alternate-alternately, you could give light armor proficiency, no spell failure in light armor, and a scaling mage armor effect to everybody. Then each character could go around unarmored when convenient without sacrificing AC, but also have the option to wear Greater Fortification armor into battle if they want.

    One gripe I have with channeling mechanics is that they don't play nice with certain other mechanics. You can't move, make a single attack, and channel. You can't charge and channel. You can't initiate a strike maneuver and channel. And you can't channel, miss the attack, and then apply the benefits of channeling to an attack of opportunity you make later that round.

    For my own attempt at something similar, I just created an assortment of invocations that were a swift action to cast and applied some rider effect to all your attacks until the start of your next turn. Some of them had an additional limitation of discharging on the first successful hit. That was my solution tho the whole channeling magical effects through your weapon trope.

    Oh, I see. Warding is where people are meant to be getting their armor special abilities. But now that I think about it, couldn't you enchant a thistledown suit and apply armor abilities to that? I guess you could load up on a lot of armor abilities by enchanting a thistledown suit and using Warding.

    Some of the abilities you've listed as being eligible for Warding aren't priced as an enhancement bonus. I don't see how flat-priced enhancements are supposed to be handled.

    Why would anyone apply Ghost Touch to Mage Armor? Mage Armor already works against ghosts.

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    Default Re: Fun, breezy gish class with infinite spells

    As you can see from my signature, I see Spellblade, I upvote...

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    Default Re: Fun, breezy gish class with infinite spells

    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    Wouldn't the 3.5 Warlock have been an easy basis to use for infinite spells?
    I wanted them to prepare, not use spells known. Could you dish the recovery mechanic? Yes but you'd have to add cooldowns to most of the spells which is tedious to track. Recovery mechanism gives you tactical choices at much lower complexity.

    Of course, there may be a better refresh mechanic than the one I put in.


    One gripe I have with channeling mechanics is that they don't play nice with certain other mechanics. You can't move, make a single attack, and channel. You can't charge and channel. You can't initiate a strike maneuver and channel. And you can't channel, miss the attack, and then apply the benefits of channeling to an attack of opportunity you make later that round.
    It's meant to be as simple as possible. Either use spellstrike plus hit and cast, or you can use a movement spell plus a spellstrike. Your cantrips are both movement spells, and while they're weak they cost no mana, so this choice is always theoretically present.

    For my own attempt at something similar, I just created an assortment of invocations that were a swift action to cast and applied some rider effect to all your attacks until the start of your next turn. Some of them had an additional limitation of discharging on the first successful hit. That was my solution tho the whole channeling magical effects through your weapon trope.
    Despite what I said, I do agree that channeling is a little bit eh, but if I were going to remove it I would cut out the middleman and make the spells involve melee attacks, like maneuvers.

    But now that I think about it, couldn't you enchant a thistledown suit and apply armor abilities to that?
    I thought I put in a line about this. Guess not. Fixed.

    Some of the abilities you've listed as being eligible for Warding aren't priced as an enhancement bonus. I don't see how flat-priced enhancements are supposed to be handled.

    Why would anyone apply Ghost Touch to Mage Armor? Mage Armor already works against ghosts.
    Good catch, fixed.

    You're supposed to stack warding with an animated shield however, which is why I didn't make the warding bonus higher.
    Last edited by Elves; 2020-07-11 at 02:20 AM.
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    Default Re: Fun, breezy gish class with infinite spells

    5000+ views and only one PEACH? Any more feedback?
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    Default Re: Fun, breezy gish class with infinite spells

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    5000+ views and only one PEACH? Any more feedback?
    Since you have 5000 views, but only a tiny fragment of the viewers gave feedback,
    it is most likely, that the majority either silenty approves of your work, or they do not know what to say.

    If I can suggest a few changes.
    Grant the class full BAB and good will saves. Also for the sake of qualifiying for prestige classes, which need certain spell levels as minimum, I recommend the following:

    The highest spell level the Spellblade can cast, is determined by the spells they receive. If the spell exists on several spelllists, always chose the version with the lowest spell level.

    For example: Polar Ray is a 8th level Sorcerer/Wizard spell, but since it also exists as a 5th level Duskblade spell, it counts as a 5th Level spell for the Spellblade.

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    Default Re: Fun, breezy gish class with infinite spells

    Quote Originally Posted by ThanatosZero View Post
    Grant the class full BAB
    The reason it doesn't is because its full attack already has an extra standard action baked into it from the get-go thanks to Hit and Cast. That's presumably why the PF magus has it that way too.

    Also for the sake of qualifiying for prestige classes, which need certain spell levels as minimum, I recommend the following:
    I was trying to keep it as spare as possible but you're right a clause like that is probably needed. Adding.
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    Default Re: Fun, breezy gish class with infinite spells

    Your list of spells known goes from 0 to 20, which took me a second to understand. The "0th" level spells are presumably the cantrips, which always count as prepared, but that threw me off at first because of the way the spell list goes from 1-20 instead of 1-9 like most casters. I don't entirely disagree with that, but it's definitely unusual. Anyway, I think it would be a little clearer if you labeled the 0 level spells "cantrips" instead of 0th level so that I don't sit there going "...you learn these at class level 0? huh?"

    There's a surprising lack of swift actions here, from what I can see. A few spells have swift action casting times, which is nice, but only a few. Rapid Aegis seems almost necessary to make Aegis work, since spending a standard action on a purely defensive buff that doesn't help your teammates is usually not the best idea. Maybe you can make the Aegis a swift action by default, and make a feat that lets you share your Aegis effect with nearby allies?

    Mage Armor scaling by increments of +2 definitely seems weird, I don't see any reason not to make it just go up by +1 at every even level.

    Hit and Cast is a bit of an awkward name. Pity that "Spell Combat" is already taken... maybe "Arcane Assault" or something?

    I think Hypnotic Swordplay doesn't actually work. The way the Fascinated condition works in 3.5 and pathfinder, it breaks automatically if the creature is under threat. Since this is meant to be cast in combat, that seems like a problem.

    Touch the Truth doesn't seem to actually have an effect/description.

    Mostly... I like it? The spell list isn't totally boring, it has a few neat effects, but it's still pretty simple and easy to pick up, which it seems is the whole point. It can do melee or archery, which is nice, and it seems like it'll do reasonable but not insane damage.
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    Default Re: Fun, breezy gish class with infinite spells

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    There's a surprising lack of swift actions here, from what I can see. [..] Maybe you can make the Aegis a swift action by default
    It was, but I thought it would be too complicated to have aegis switching be a frequent part of the gameplay. No swift action aegis does incentivize preparing swift action spells to fill those actions, but that results in a faster burn rate for your mana points, so it's still a tactical tradeoff, especially when you also have move action spells that can absorb your mana. But the higher your mana gets the less power that argument has, since combat is often only 2 rounds.

    Maybe swift action aegis should be a feature that comes in at 5th level when you get 3 mana.

    Actually, I'm putting it at 7th level when you get two crucial swift action spells, swift fly and swift invisibility, so that there's real competition for your swift actions.

    Alternately, Hit and Cast could be changed to "cast a standard action spell as a swift action after making a melee full attack". That would allow the BAB to be boosted to full. But on second thought that would polarize the class gameplay too much between two strategies (Hit and Cast vs Spellstrike+swift action spells), so people would be either using one ability or the other, not mixing.

    make a feat that lets you share your Aegis effect with nearby allies?
    Great suggestion, added

    Mage Armor scaling by increments of +2 definitely seems weird, I don't see any reason not to make it just go up by +1 at every even level.
    The intent was to space out the class features so people aren't dealing with too much at any one level.

    Hit and Cast is a bit of an awkward name. Pity that "Spell Combat" is already taken... maybe "Arcane Assault" or something?
    I thought "Spell Combat" was too vague because it sounded like you were fighting with spells. Arcane Assault has the same problem. Hit and Cast is plain and descriptive.

    I think Hypnotic Swordplay doesn't actually work. The way the Fascinated condition works in 3.5 and pathfinder, it breaks automatically if the creature is under threat. Since this is meant to be cast in combat, that seems like a problem.
    True, I'll add clarifying text.
    Last edited by Elves; 2020-12-01 at 06:49 PM.
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    Default Re: Fun, breezy gish class with infinite spells

    Made some edits. Cantrips no longer cost mana -- is that a good change?

    I think this could be a fun class to play. The obvious lack is any permanent choices to distinguish one from another, though that was intentional to be newbie-friendly. Could add some new class features with permanent choices.
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    Default Re: Fun, breezy gish class with infinite spells

    Is the new Blood Mana feat balanced?
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    Default Re: Fun, breezy gish class with infinite spells

    I have had this tab open a while trying to find the energy for any real response.

    Having failed at that (through NO fault on your part) I will just say that part of the lack of activity in this thread may be due to the extra steps required to click a link, and maybe a bit of extra work for copy-pasting quotes for critiquing specific passages... maybe vague computer virus concerns too?
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    Default Re: Fun, breezy gish class with infinite spells

    It looks somewhat like a Swordsage.

    Aegis is effectively a Stance; spell point pool has a refresh mechanic like an Initiator; spells known is roughly on par with an Initiator's maneuver pool; etc.

    With that as a basis for comparison, I think you'll see that this class gets a lot more perks than the competition.

    That might be your goal, or if not then it might be over-tuned.

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    Default Re: Fun, breezy gish class with infinite spells

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    maybe a bit of extra work for copy-pasting quotes for critiquing specific passages... maybe vague computer virus concerns too?
    It's just a google doc, don't worry about viruses. You should be able to copy paste fine from the PDF too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    It looks somewhat like a Swordsage.

    Aegis is effectively a Stance; spell point pool has a refresh mechanic like an Initiator; spells known is roughly on par with an Initiator's maneuver pool; etc.

    That might be your goal, or if not then it might be over-tuned.
    What parts do you find unbalanced compared to a TOB class?

    The balance point I was comparing it to was a generic 16BAB/9s abjchamp gish, in comparison to which it comes up way less powerful but with a more consistent gameplay loop. But you're right TOB is more apt. I'm not worried about it being overpowered so long as it's T3, which it is, but please point out any problem elements.

    (I do think single class martial adepts are slightly undertuned)

    With that as a basis for comparison, I think you'll see that this class gets a lot more perks than the competition.
    Does it? Its features save it some WBL on armor and weapons, which seems comparable to or weaker than warblade bonus feats (w/ analogous capstone) and crusader mettle + damage pool. And remember, being forced into one-handed weapon full attacks with hit and cast or single melee touch attacks with spellstrike give it a low damage potential compared to a melee initiator.

    In practice imbue weapon and warding equate to CL-equivalent free items of magic weapon/greater magic weapon and magic vestment with more flexibility instead of being limited to enhancement bonuses. A CL 20 wand of each effect totals 90k, or 11.84% of 20th level WBL, and the real value is much less since they are only at CL 20-equivalent for last few levels.
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    Default Re: Fun, breezy gish class with infinite spells

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    It's just a google doc, don't worry about viruses. You should be able to copy paste fine from the PDF too.
    Would you find it annoying if people replied to you with PasteBin links instead of inline?


    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    What parts do you find unbalanced compared to a TOB class?

    The balance point I was comparing it to was a generic 16BAB/9s abjchamp gish, in comparison to which it comes up way less powerful but with a more consistent gameplay loop. But you're right TOB is more apt. I'm not worried about it being overpowered so long as it's T3, which it is, but please point out any problem elements.

    (I do think single class martial adepts are slightly undertuned)


    Does it? Its features save it some WBL on armor and weapons, which seems comparable to or weaker than warblade bonus feats (w/ analogous capstone) and crusader mettle + damage pool. And remember, being forced into one-handed weapon full attacks with hit and cast or single melee touch attacks with spellstrike give it a low damage potential compared to a melee initiator.

    In practice imbue weapon and warding equate to CL-equivalent free items of magic weapon/greater magic weapon and magic vestment with more flexibility instead of being limited to enhancement bonuses. A CL 20 wand of each effect totals 90k, or 11.84% of 20th level WBL, and the real value is much less since they are only at CL 20-equivalent for last few levels.
    I don't think I said anything about WBL being particularly problematic.

    Could you quote where you think I was talking about WBL?

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    Default Re: Fun, breezy gish class with infinite spells

    You mentioned perks so I assumed you meant class features.

    Which of its abilities did you find overpowered in comparison to initiators?
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    Default Re: Fun, breezy gish class with infinite spells

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Would you find it annoying if people replied to you with PasteBin links instead of inline?
    ^This. Virii were not a concern of MINE, but other people might miss the fact that it was a GoogleDoc (I can't remember if I noticed when I first looked at this thread), or not be savvy enough to know to trust those. Virii were a distant secondary concern compared to the added step/tab though.
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    Default Re: Fun, breezy gish class with infinite spells

    Well, I didn't talk about WBL, but I did mention stances vs. Aegis -- that'd be a place to start.

    Giving 15 spell-equivalent options seems better than choosing 6 situational options, and some of the Aegis options are much better than same-level spells.

    The balance point I was comparing it to was a generic 16BAB/9s abjchamp gish, in comparison to which it comes up way less powerful but with a more consistent gameplay loop. But you're right TOB is more apt. I'm not worried about it being overpowered so long as it's T3, which it is, but please point out any problem elements.
    There's a breadth of power in a 9s abchamp.

    Persistent shapechange would be on one side of the power spectrum; foresight and a rapier would be on the other.

    One of those is not going to fit in a T3 game.


    In terms of abusable features, the way you've made it able to cast level 16 spells at-will seems like a thing that could be twisted.

    The specific level 16 spell(s) in this doc might be fine (or might not), but that doesn't necessarily matter -- there are numerous ways to go off-list or to use spell mechanics to do something other than cast a spell.

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