Encumbrance Rules and 'Cheating'

[JonBeowulf]

I personally don't enjoy playing "keeper of weights, rations, water, and ammunitions." These are things that matter a lot less in a game where you can pretend to be an elf. It's a game, and games are supposed to be fun, so why should I do things that are work? I'm on paper (still).

If you as DM like the fiddly stuff or you run on a computer that tracks that stuff, tell us why that adds fun to the game. Because it didn't in every single version of face to face D&D I have experienced. Maybe it's fun for you.

As many have said, I worry about weight only when it matters.

At my table, ammunition is lost when you roll a 1 or a 20, and must be replaced if you've been out of town awhile (unless you are proficient with fletcher tools). As you can imagine, this stops players from carrying around a barrel full of arrows/bolts. 40 is normally way more than you would need unless you are going to play OOTA. OOTA is an extreme case, and part of the reason I'm never going to run or play it and am sorry I bought the book.

How can you worry about weight only when it matters if you have no idea how much burden you're already under?

I don't make anyone track it in face-to-face games, but I know exactly what they started with and can spend a couple of brain cycles to keep a general idea on how loaded they are.

In VTT, encumbrance is on. That's a bullet point in my default Session 0 notes so it's never missed. Don't like it? Play elsewhere. Disabled it and got caught? Play elsewhere ('cause you're out of my game).

[Warder]

It's funny, I have a related issue that's just come up over the past couple weeks. We use Encumbrance rules at our table and have since we started. It's not been a problem, we usually "audit" our character inventories after sessions so we don't have to look up weight on esoteric stuff while we play. For our most recent campaign (where I'm a player, not a DM) we've also implemented some homebrew rules for feats, where it's possible to pick some things to make heavy armor more feasible without getting encumbered.

(As a sidenote, characters focusing on Str usually get to carry less stuff than others since armor weighs so much under variant Encumbrance rules. It kinda sucks.)

Anyway, in our group of 5 + DM, it turns out that two of the players have been fairly consistently "cheating" with their encumbrance, as in, "I can't be bothered tracking it that closely, I just get a feel for when I'm starting to go over the limit". So they're not opposed to tracking encumbrance, they just don't want to be bothered with the math. Normally, and especially as a player, this wouldn't have bothered me at all. It's still in the spirit of why we adopted the rules, and they're not actively trying to cheat for an advantage. But since we've made changes to our feat system I've actually invested resources into making my character able to be effective in heavy armor, so it suddenly bothers me a lot - feat points don't come around that often, after all. I plan on bringing it up at our next session, but I think it highlights the importance of hashing out why you're using the rules in the first place, and finding a level of math tracking everyone's happy with.

[Lord Ruby34]

Which is what I don't understand. We play on Roll20 and run the voice over Discord.
I literally have a text server with all the game rules established so they either have not read it or are choosing to ignore it.

I mean all the players are heavy on RP but some of them love the fact of RPing item management. Hence why it feels like a few select players are trying to 'cheat'.

This is the crux. Half the players are buying in, the other half are not even though the rules have been established and we have been playing weekly for over a year.
Some of the players are acting if this is a new rule.

Knowing people, it's probably that they didn't read it, skimmed it, or forgot. People are very good at forgetting things they don't like.

The only solution is to talk about it. What is encumbrance adding to your game, and is it worth annoying the people who hate it? Is it worth the possibility of imploding your game?

(Another question, are these players your friends? Do you hang out with them outside DnD? If so, you have to cooperate with them more than you would if they were randoms for social reasons. That's my situation, and my advice is tailored towards it.)

[Fishyninja]

How can you worry about weight only when it matters if you have no idea how much burden you're already under?

I don't make anyone track it in face-to-face games, but I know exactly what they started with and can spend a couple of brain cycles to keep a general idea on how loaded they are.

In VTT, encumbrance is on. That's a bullet point in my default Session 0 notes so it's never missed. Don't like it? Play elsewhere. Disabled it and got caught? Play elsewhere ('cause you're out of my game).

I don't religiously track it either I have been trusting my players to do so and since I play in a VTT it is also turned on by default, while normally the 'play elsewhere' option would be good for a new group this is a group that has been established for over a year. Don't get me wrong I have no issues with dealing with problem players but it seems that this is (hopefully) a minor infraction that can be resolved.

[Tanarii]

Excuses are like opinions, everyone has one and they stink.

It's the default rules. If you didn't explain there was a house rule excepting it from the rules when you started the campaign, the reasonable expectation is it applies.

Your choices at this point appear to be to tell them you're not house ruling to hand wave encumberance away and risk losing your players, or house rule to hand wave it away because most of the players want the house rule. Either is okay, but IMO before you do, point out that next time they want a fundamental house rule change they should point it out a the beginning of the campaign.

Also probably check if they're tracking use of ammo, rations, torches. And gold pieces when they spend it for that matter.

There was an agreement. And then some players decided to not follow the terms.

Sounds like they're more interested in not respecting the DM's rulings than in respecting them.

Also this. On the other hand, if they're merely grumbling about a ruling in session then approaching you about it afterwards, it hasn't reached the end times yet.

It's when all that's happened and you make a final decision and they deliberately ignore it that you have a real problem. That'd be worse than walking away. There are always new players.

[Fishyninja]

Knowing people, it's probably that they didn't read it, skimmed it, or forgot. People are very good at forgetting things they don't like.

The only solution is to talk about it. What is encumbrance adding to your game, and is it worth annoying the people who hate it? Is it worth the possibility of imploding your game?

(Another question, are these players your friends? Do you hang out with them outside DnD? If so, you have to cooperate with them more than you would if they were randoms for social reasons. That's my situation, and my advice is tailored towards it.)

We are friends but online so we don't physically meet No.
In regards to your second line it is adding a sense of realism to the game and has been an established rule from day 1. Weight is important, some spells have weight limits on what can be moved and affected. Bags of Holding hold x amount before being ruptured etc. In regards to imploding the game, I don't see that happening but if it does it has been because players rather than talk to the DM have decided to not follow rules we all agreed on. I mean all my players bar one are older than me and have more experience in the game and I do this as a labour of love. I really enjoy the story and their characters I am not trying to do this to 'Showcase my power as DM' or anything I just think that if the rules have been established prior to the game they should be followed.

If the players came to me and said 'Hey Fish, we're not really feeling the encumbrance rules, can we look at that?' I would be more than happy to do so, instead they just ignored the rule and did their own thing.

An exaggerated example would be that if they are going to ignore rules about weight, what next....Oh my weapon does a d20 damage and my crit range is now 1!
I do not think it is going to go that way at all but you see the point, I am trying to run the game with the rules that are laid out and have been agreed upon.

Also probably check if they're tracking use of ammo, rations, torches. And gold pieces when they spend it for that matter.

This has occurred to me, I get it the DM has a load of things to track already but it now feels like I can't trust some of my players at this point.
Going to your point about grumblings in session. I did rule in session that we were meant to be following encumbrance and I will forgive any transgressions up to this point as it may have been accidental and I referred them back to the session 0. However when the players asked me if I was accusing them of cheating this says to me that maybe they might of been and now I feel like as well as running the game I have to make sure certain players are not actively cheating in other things.

I hate it.

[Keravath]

Just a couple of comments ...

1) Which version of encumbrance are you using? The base strength x 15lbs or the variant?

If using the base version, you only need to keep a rough track which Roll20 and most automated character sheets take care of. You only really run into trouble when the players try to carry off large numbers of coins. At least in this version 50 coins weigh about a pound but if you want to carry off 1000gp you are looking at 20 pounds and 10,000gp is 200lbs.

If you are using the variant version then you need to discuss it beforehand. The limits of the variant version are 5 lbs/str point to be encumbered. This means that pretty much every 8 strength character in medium armor will already be encumbered and it makes tracking encumbrance much more onerous and restrictive since it will mechanically affect every day operation of the character all the time and significantly affect game play all of the time. I avoid the variant rule for this reason since I am playing/running D&D and not D&D&IM (IM = Inventory Management). IM is not fun.

On the other hand, you do want to be able to say that the players can't carry all the treasure in one go and even they will usually agree this makes sense.

2) The OP said that one character was 90lbs over and most of it was due to 220 arrows - however 20 arrows is only 1lb so 220 is 11 lbs and well within the carrying capacity of most characters so there were certainly other items being carried that made the character exceed the weight limit.

Finally, the only way to resolve it at the table is with a bit of discussion. Some players really do not like any book keeping at all - they are there to play the game not make lists of everything they are carrying and what it weighs. On the other hand, some players love the details and others are indifferent. Since you are playing on Roll20, most of the weights are automatically added - so most of the time all a player needs to do is look at the sheet. They are already tracking encumbrance because they are using the sheet - the only factor is whether they actually look at what the number says. Since the character sheet is available to everyone, the DM can help folks pare down their inventory a bit.

However, hoarders exist in real life and D&D is no different. Some people just like to take everything they find and don't like giving it up. Other players pick up everything they find because they are used to video games which may or may not use encumbrance. Either way, some players either won't understand why D&D is different or why they might have to leave stuff that they find behind. In both of these cases, the DM needs to have a very simple chat to the group, explain the purpose and meaning of encumbrance (I suggest using only the basic rule, not the variant one), show them how easily it is reported on the character sheet and get the characters who like to collect things the opportunity to remove items from the character sheet so that their carried weight is closer to the limit. Show how the process is easy, not onerous and won't really affect their character - it only limits how much they can carry.

---

3) As for cheating - in my opinion, no they weren't. No one would bother to cheat with encumbrance - it is pointless. They will happily ignore the rule or might forget to pay attention to it but actively scheming and conniving so that they could carry an extra long sword or a bag of coins? Give me a break. From the sounds of it, encumbrance has never been mentioned by the DM in this game until a session came up where they played a PC as an NPC and looked at the character sheet. If the DM has never asked the players if they can carry something, why would the players think it matters at all?

Session 0:
DM "We are playing with encumbrance"
Players "OK"

Did the DM explain what he meant by that? What does encumbrance mean to each player? Depending on the experience of each player they could easily think that ammo costs nothing in weight (most video games it does not).

Session 1 -> NN ... Encumbrance is never mentioned. DM never asks characters if they can carry something.

Session NN: DM notes that a character sheet indicates a character is 90lbs over encumbrance and thinks everyone is cheating.

Wut? If you are going to use encumbrance then the DM has to use it to give it any meaning for either the DM or the players. If the DM is happy to ignore it in play then the players will go along.

Maybe I have misinterpreted and the DM constantly asked the individuals in the party where they were carrying that extra suit of armor, he gently reminded each player that they need to track all the things they pick up ... and the players ignored it and lied about being able to carry it ... but honestly it doesn't sound like that. If a DM wants to use encumbrance and make it have meaning then they need to use it in the game ... it isn't a side accounting thing that each player is expected to be responsible for off screen.

Anyway ...

Cheating is ... modifying die rolls ... making up fictitious abilities for your character (this one is easy to spot unless the DM is very new to the game) ... making up rules that help you (this again is a new DM problem - player says "Yes my character can concentrate on two spells at once" - Experienced DM says "No") ... the DM needs to know the rules of the game including any changes and house rules they decide to use.

Cheating is also lying ... if the players know what encumbrance is, how it is to be used in the game, the DM asks them if they have enough carrying capacity for the 1000gp they just picked up and the player, knowing that their character sheet says they are already overweight says "Sure, I can carry it" ... then they are cheating.

However, not paying attention to encumbrance when the game as played doesn't seem to use it? That is just being lazy, not usually cheating.

[Fishyninja]

Just a couple of comments ...

1) Which version of encumbrance are you using? The base strength x 15lbs or the variant?

Base Version, so yes Str x 15. It is the simplest to use and away you go. Again using Roll20 so auto calculated!

If using the base version, you only need to keep a rough track which Roll20 and most automated character sheets take care of. You only really run into trouble when the players try to carry off large numbers of coins. At least in this version 50 coins weigh about a pound but if you want to carry off 1000gp you are looking at 20 pounds and 10,000gp is 200lbs.

Yep this is the situation we are at now. In a few sessions in this dungeon they will have access to a lot of riches. So the sudden timing of 'Oh we don't want to use encumbrance' reeks a bit of players looking ahead into the module.

2) The OP said that one character was 90lbs over and most of it was due to 220 arrows - however 20 arrows is only 1lb so 220 is 11 lbs and well within the carrying capacity of most characters so there were certainly other items being carried that made the character exceed the weight limit.

You were right. I had a look and a lot of her items had actually been stored in her saddle bag and she had forgotten to tack them off.

Finally, the only way to resolve it at the table is with a bit of discussion. Some players really do not like any book keeping at all - they are there to play the game not make lists of everything they are carrying and what it weighs. On the other hand, some players love the details and others are indifferent. Since you are playing on Roll20, most of the weights are automatically added - so most of the time all a player needs to do is look at the sheet. They are already tracking encumbrance because they are using the sheet - the only factor is whether they actually look at what the number says. Since the character sheet is available to everyone, the DM can help folks pare down their inventory a bit.

However, hoarders exist in real life and D&D is no different. Some people just like to take everything they find and don't like giving it up. Other players pick up everything they find because they are used to video games which may or may not use encumbrance. Either way, some players either won't understand why D&D is different or why they might have to leave stuff that they find behind. In both of these cases, the DM needs to have a very simple chat to the group, explain the purpose and meaning of encumbrance (I suggest using only the basic rule, not the variant one), show them how easily it is reported on the character sheet and get the characters who like to collect things the opportunity to remove items from the character sheet so that their carried weight is closer to the limit. Show how the process is easy, not onerous and won't really affect their character - it only limits how much they can carry.

I think it is a hoarding issue as one of the players who has shown dissent also was getting agitated that I was going to create a Bag Of Holding sheet for them to easily track inventory and they wanted to have sole control on it.
As someone else stated, because of this I am now worried about tracking their gold usage as well.

[Morty]

I've played in several games where we didn't use encumbrance. Either because there were no rules for it to begin with or because no one cared. Two of them were D&D 5E. This worked just fine, everybody only carried what they actually needed and no one tried to abuse it. If and when we faced a problem of carrying something large, heavy or voluminous, we dealt with it as it came. Thus I'm generally of the opinion that tracking encumbrance is a waste of time.

[Fishyninja]

I've played in several games where we didn't use encumbrance. Either because there were no rules for it to begin with or because no one cared. Two of them were D&D 5E. This worked just fine, everybody only carried what they actually needed and no one tried to abuse it. If and when we faced a problem of carrying something large, heavy or voluminous, we dealt with it as it came. Thus I'm generally of the opinion that tracking encumbrance is a waste of time.

Fair enough, but what happens if some people want to track it and some don't? Do you just let the players continue that way?

[Morty]

Fair enough, but what happens if some people want to track it and some don't? Do you just let the players continue that way?

As a GM, I would probably say that I don't expect anyone to track it, but if someone wants to, they can feel free. I don't expect it would lead to any actual problems unless a player went out of the way to cause them.

[Keravath]

I think it is a hoarding issue as one of the players who has shown dissent also was getting agitated that I was going to create a Bag Of Holding sheet for them to easily track inventory and they wanted to have sole control on it.
As someone else stated, because of this I am now worried about tracking their gold usage as well.

I edited my answer above and added some stuff on the cheating question (I don't think most would intentionally cheat encumbrance).

As for gold expenditures, does it matter in your game?

For example, a character with 200gp, goes to a bar, buys a meal for 3sp and 3 ales for 15cp. That is less than 1/2 gp. It is pocket change for the character and a rounding error on their 200gp (and honestly, if you play some of the WotC content - 200gp is negligible by itself, some of the tier 1 and tier 2 adventures can yield 1000's of gp).

Some players love to track each cp spent. Others see that it is rounding error and consider it a waste of time. As a DM I will track the expensive items. A party I am running recently bought a house which cost them 3500gp. They were considering buying a ballista for their ship which would be 1000gp. I can't be bothered tracking the costs of a night at the bar - it isn't worth my time or theirs.

So, my suggestion would be let the players record their gold and only make sure that large expenditures are removed from inventory. Day to day expenses, nights out at the inn, are role playing experiences and if a player tracks the costs, great! but I am not going to turn the game into book keeping 101 and it isn't worth the time for the DM to track the small stuff.

It's just my opinion. Others will have a different take on encumbrance, coin expenses, food usage but I only tend to track these when they matter to the game play. I will track food/drink if they travel overland, somewhere where it is scarce or difficult to find, and the survival element is a part of that section of the campaign - otherwise it becomes a narrative anecdote and move on (the party spends 2 hours when making camp scrounging for food and potable water ... or the Druid/Ranger spends 6 seconds casting goodberry :) ).

[Fishyninja]

I edited my answer above and added some stuff on the cheating question (I don't think most would intentionally cheat encumbrance).

As for gold expenditures, does it matter in your game?

For example, a character with 200gp, goes to a bar, buys a meal for 3sp and 3 ales for 15cp. That is less than 1/2 gp. It is pocket change for the character and a rounding error on their 200gp (and honestly, if you play some of the WotC content - 200gp is negligible by itself, some of the tier 1 and tier 2 adventures can yield 1000's of gp).

Some players love to track each cp spent. Others see that it is rounding error and consider it a waste of time. As a DM I will track the expensive items. A party I am running recently bought a house which cost them 3500gp. They were considering buying a ballista for their ship which would be 1000gp. I can't be bothered tracking the costs of a night at the bar - it isn't worth my time or theirs.

So, my suggestion would be let the players record their gold and only make sure that large expenditures are removed from inventory. Day to day expenses, nights out at the inn, are role playing experiences and if a player tracks the costs, great! but I am not going to turn the game into book keeping 101 and it isn't worth the time for the DM to track the small stuff.

It's just my opinion. Others will have a different take on encumbrance, coin expenses, food usage but I only tend to track these when they matter to the game play. I will track food/drink if they travel overland, somewhere where it is scarce or difficult to find, and the survival element is a part of that section of the campaign - otherwise it becomes a narrative anecdote and move on (the party spends 2 hours when making camp scrounging for food and potable water ... or the Druid/Ranger spends 6 seconds casting goodberry :) ).

In regards to costs etc. Usually food and drinks I will tell them (the players the amount) and unless they state otherwise I assume they are playing but like you for large items there is a proper cost associated it. Again I have been trusting them to work out their gold themselves and to track it but because of this whole encumbrance thing I am now worried, are they knocking of the cost of items that matter like potions or scolls etc.

In regards to any excess gold and carrying it, as it is heavy. In their home city there is a bank/moneylender who can hold their gold for them and if they want, make investments as well. Only 1 player has used this feature as of yet, but they used it as they had a lot of spare cash.

[meandean]

I agree, most people do not enjoy micromanaging I know I don't.

If you understand and even agree that it's not fun for players, then why are you insisting it be in your game? I mean going beyond that it's in the rules and you're the DM and it's not fair to the players who did abide by it and etc. Why is it actually preferable to have this universal rule, than to have the universal rule where there's no encumbrance?

Is it that, even though it's not fun in and of itself, you think it's nonetheless necessary bookkeeping in order to retain realism? I'm not saying that would be an illogical argument, at all... I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from. (You've said you consider it a "minor infraction", but it doesn't seem that way, to be honest.)

[Darth Credence]

I'm with everyone who has said that knowing it's a rule and ignoring it intentionally is cheating and disrespectful to the DM. That is the fundamental problem here, IMO, and needs to be addressed. I'd be tempted to reserve the first half hour to an hour of the next session to review the rules from session 0. Say something like you've found that there has been some confusion over the rules of the table, and you wanted to make sure everything was clear before moving on. Then bring this up and anything else that you can think of, and get a clear table agreement. When I am establishing rules, I generally go with a majority vote, with whatever the DM thinks winning any ties. If someone has a deal breaker, our group has always been willing to bend for that and no one has had opposing deal breakers yet. Once the rules are confirmed, before starting forward again, I'd let everyone know that there should be no more confusion over these rules, and that you will be tracking them in the future. If someone deliberately ignored the rules after that, I'd probably kick them.

In my current campaign, we nominally track endurance, but it hasn't generally been a factor. One character is an artificer who was able to make his own bag of holding, so a lot of stuff is dealt with that way. The biggest problems have been when dealing with things like art, which is bulky and heavy, so they have had to get a wagon to haul it around. But they are rapidly approaching a point where it is not going to matter, and I would assume that your players are already there. If they are getting 50k coins in a particular dungeon, then they should be level 17+, right? I think that's the only level on the standard loot tables that has that many coins, and that's only in a lair hoard. At that point, I would expect they have access to teleportation effects and can just send everything back to their home base and continue on.

[OldTrees1]

If a DM makes a rule that a player does not want to follow, there might be a disconnect. That might mean there should be a conversation.

If a DM makes a rule that a player refuses to follow, then there is a disconnect. You can accurately call that cheating, but more importantly it is a disconnect. They don't want to play with that rule and you want to play with that rule. Having a mature conversation to find an agreement is ideal. That agreement might be that you are not compatible, or one/both sides might be flexible enough to find a compromise.

[Fishyninja]

If you understand and even agree that it's not fun for players, then why are you insisting it be in your game? I mean going beyond that it's in the rules and you're the DM and it's not fair to the players who did abide by it and etc. Why is it actually preferable to have this universal rule, than to have the universal rule where there's no encumbrance?

Is it that, even though it's not fun in and of itself, you think it's nonetheless necessary bookkeeping in order to retain realism? I'm not saying that would be an illogical argument, at all... I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from. (You've said you consider it a "minor infraction", but it doesn't seem that way, to be honest.)

Ok I understand I may have been unclear. Let me try to rectify that.

• I think using encumbrance is important. Not only for Roleplay but for Mechanics as well.
• I understand that 'Micromanaging' can be boring - However since we are using an automated system where you just drag the item in question onto your sheet and it calculates the weight against your encumbrance, I do not consider that Micromanagement, that is just being lazy. If for example I was asking them to weigh out the feathers in their hat and the extra buttons they added onto their clothes then yeah that is an arse-ache but asking them to keep track of their gold and gear....well the items have those stats for a reason.
• Some of the players do find the encumbrance rule fun and have been abiding by it. Only recently some have said they don't bother using it
• This rule was established in session 0 and was agreed by the party.

[Segev]

One way to handle it is to inform the players that you, as DM, will rule on whether you feel they're encumbered or not based on your best guestimate of what you know them to have. Those who have detailed, itemized lists can challenge you on it, and those who don't can't prove they're not.

Another way to handle it would be to require them to prove that they have items in their inventories before they can use them, and ask them how they're carrying it and such. Deny them items they have not properly tracked encumbrance for as "not with them."

A third way is to require them to provide you with updated inventories any time they change things out, and at the end of each session. You can do the encumbrance calculations, yourself, and be strict about what items they're carrying. You can even be reasonable with those who can provide for you updated inventories that disagree with yours as long as they clearly show that they've properly tracked (and used the rules for) encumbrance.


The first method is the least intrusive and least like assigning homework to the players; you assume good faith on their part, but you also assume you are tracking things based on what you are aware they have. If you're wrong, they can provide their encumbrance tracking to correct you.

The last is the most formalized, which may or may not work for your group.

[Fishyninja]

I'm with everyone who has said that knowing it's a rule and ignoring it intentionally is cheating and disrespectful to the DM. That is the fundamental problem here, IMO, and needs to be addressed. I'd be tempted to reserve the first half hour to an hour of the next session to review the rules from session 0. Say something like you've found that there has been some confusion over the rules of the table, and you wanted to make sure everything was clear before moving on. Then bring this up and anything else that you can think of, and get a clear table agreement. When I am establishing rules, I generally go with a majority vote, with whatever the DM thinks winning any ties. If someone has a deal breaker, our group has always been willing to bend for that and no one has had opposing deal breakers yet. Once the rules are confirmed, before starting forward again, I'd let everyone know that there should be no more confusion over these rules, and that you will be tracking them in the future. If someone deliberately ignored the rules after that, I'd probably kick them.

In my current campaign, we nominally track endurance, but it hasn't generally been a factor. One character is an artificer who was able to make his own bag of holding, so a lot of stuff is dealt with that way. The biggest problems have been when dealing with things like art, which is bulky and heavy, so they have had to get a wagon to haul it around. But they are rapidly approaching a point where it is not going to matter, and I would assume that your players are already there. If they are getting 50k coins in a particular dungeon, then they should be level 17+, right? I think that's the only level on the standard loot tables that has that many coins, and that's only in a lair hoard. At that point, I would expect they have access to teleportation effects and can just send everything back to their home base and continue on.

This is a great answer thank you.

And for clarification I use the 50k GP as an example. They will probably be getting at least 20K GP and associated loot to make it up to 50K GP, the point is they will potentially be getting their hands on a lot of gold and items. They are in a remote location which is not easily accessed and they are not of a level where they have access to teleportation. The module that they are playing was designed as a one shot but I am incorporating it into the campaign. When I personally played this oneshot, the DM did not run encumbrance rules we had the gold and then were sort of stuck on what to do with it all. Another reason why I wanted to have the encumbrance rules. I am not worried about them crashing the economy in anyway I just want them to consider the logistics.

One way to handle it is to inform the players that you, as DM, will rule on whether you feel they're encumbered or not based on your best guestimate of what you know them to have. Those who have detailed, itemized lists can challenge you on it, and those who don't can't prove they're not.

Another way to handle it would be to require them to prove that they have items in their inventories before they can use them, and ask them how they're carrying it and such. Deny them items they have not properly tracked encumbrance for as "not with them."

A third way is to require them to provide you with updated inventories any time they change things out, and at the end of each session. You can do the encumbrance calculations, yourself, and be strict about what items they're carrying. You can even be reasonable with those who can provide for you updated inventories that disagree with yours as long as they clearly show that they've properly tracked (and used the rules for) encumbrance.


The first method is the least intrusive and least like assigning homework to the players; you assume good faith on their part, but you also assume you are tracking things based on what you are aware they have. If you're wrong, they can provide their encumbrance tracking to correct you.

The last is the most formalized, which may or may not work for your group.

I would really like to rely on good faith to them but the fact some of them have admitted to ignoring a requested rule. I am not sure if I can rely on that.

[Segev]

This is a great answer thank you.

And for clarification I use the 50k GP as an example. They will probably be getting at least 20K GP and associated loot to make it up to 50K GP, the point is they will potentially be getting their hands on a lot of gold and items. They are in a remote location which is not easily accessed and they are not of a level where they have access to teleportation. The module that they are playing was designed as a one shot but I am incorporating it into the campaign. When I personally played this oneshot, the DM did not run encumbrance rules we had the gold and then were sort of stuck on what to do with it all. Another reason why I wanted to have the encumbrance rules. I am not worried about them crashing the economy in anyway I just want them to consider the logistics.

Even if some of the party hasn't been tracking encumbrance, moments like this are perfect times for the DM to ask, "How are you transporting it?" When they explain, if you have any reason to question at all that that would work, feel free to ask, "Can you really carry all of that? What are you currently at and how much can you carry?" Everyone will have to produce their carry weights, how it's stored on them, and what their encumbrance-related values are. You need not be accusatory nor confrontational, just force them to tally up here, because it's suddenly very important.

This will either get the players who aren't tracking it to track it better, or provide you more excuses to remind them that they're encumbered and force them to prove they're not (which means tracking encumbrance).

[Fishyninja]

Even if some of the party hasn't been tracking encumbrance, moments like this are perfect times for the DM to ask, "How are you transporting it?" When they explain, if you have any reason to question at all that that would work, feel free to ask, "Can you really carry all of that? What are you currently at and how much can you carry?" Everyone will have to produce their carry weights, how it's stored on them, and what their encumbrance-related values are. You need not be accusatory nor confrontational, just force them to tally up here, because it's suddenly very important.

This will either get the players who aren't tracking it to track it better, or provide you more excuses to remind them that they're encumbered and force them to prove they're not (which means tracking encumbrance).

I usually do and I do this with most of their plans, primarily so I understand their ideas. So questions like "How are you going to do this" is common. Again referring back to OP the whole encumbrance issue came from me controlling a players character while they were away and noticing their encumbrance was off. This started the whole conversation in which some of the other players began dissenting about the encumbrance rule. Turns out that encumbered player had forgot to tick some stuff off and they are not the problem player.

[Segev]

I usually do and I do this with most of their plans, primarily so I understand their ideas. So questions like "How are you going to do this" is common. Again referring back to OP the whole encumbrance issue came from me controlling a players character while they were away and noticing their encumbrance was off. This started the whole conversation in which some of the other players began dissenting about the encumbrance rule. Turns out that encumbered player had forgot to tick some stuff off and they are not the problem player.

Just stick to your guns and insist that your game uses encumbrance. You can force the issue by demanding accountings of what player characters are carrying and where whenever you have reason to question whether they are too encumbered to do something.

[Fishyninja]

Just stick to your guns and insist that your game uses encumbrance. You can force the issue by demanding accountings of what player characters are carrying and where whenever you have reason to question whether they are too encumbered to do something.

Yeah was trying to avoid being the hard ruler on this but we'll see. It's annoying as usually this group is really good on things.

[Segev]

Yeah was trying to avoid being the hard ruler on this but we'll see. It's annoying as usually this group is really good on things.

It's a line to walk, yeah. You can just track their encumbrance, yourself, too. Not necessarily in full detail, but keeping in mind what they've said they're carrying. "Aren't you encumbered?" is probably enough to force them to at least look. If the "problem player" just says "no" no matter what, then you can ask them for an accounting of what they're carrying. "I'm not encumbered because I say so and don't want to bother with the rules" is bad faith gaming at a table where the DM has stated that encumbrance is a rule to be tracked and followed.

[Kurt Kurageous]

How can you worry about weight only when it matters if you have no idea how much burden you're already under?

True. But what you're currently carrying can change. Bars of gold in the pants of Cortez's men, ya know? Its a choice and a tradeoff made in game. Party doffs all armor and carries more vs taking what they can.

And figuring out what they can is STRx15.

Maybe a workable compromise is each player knows how much MORE they can carry without encumbrance. So when a situation arises, we can get a good idea how much.

But in general, its a tactical problem. Do we progress or do we retreat with the loot? What are the risks and rewards of each choice, and what can we do to make the odds of success be more in our favor? Then DM adjudicates.

[meandean]

"I'm the DM, and I like this rule, and I made it clear to the players that we're using it" is a perfectly consistent viewpoint. I get that.

However, if this issue is causing this much tension at your table, I think you owe it to both yourself and your players to consider why it's important to you. What gameplay or player decisions are you trying to add to the game?

Some possibilities I can think of:

• You want casters to prepare utility spells.
  
  • Considering that some spells that can solve the problem are rituals, this doesn't seem like a great reason.
  
  
• You want the players to spend money on mules, retainers, etc.
  
  • I... guess? Seems like it'd save a lot of time and effort to just decrease the amount of treasure in the first place.
  
  
• You think it'd be interesting if players had to make tough decisions about what to keep.
  
  • Now, it feels like encumbrance should accomplish that. But if it ends up being "they ultimately do get all of the 50K gold, we just spend a half-hour discussing how", then it doesn't... right? It'd only be a real decision if you legitimately had to choose between either not taking your newfound treasure, or dropping valuable items and losing them forever.
    
    That would be more likely to happen in a "slot"/"backpack" system, where it matters what type of item it is. If you can only carry three magic staffs and you find a fourth, you can't just drop the ball bearings you never use; you have to get rid of a magic staff. (You would, of course, then lose the advantage that Roll20 is doing the work for you.)
  
  
• You don't want everyone to dump Strength.
  
  • That's actually a good reason! (Although do note that it's partially outweighed -- literally! -- by the fact that higher-STR characters are probably wearing heavier armor. So if we're talking about the ability to pick up new stuff you find, there's less difference than one might expect. Still, there is something to this for sure.)

I'd encourage you to lay out the case, so to speak. You'll either have a new perspective on how the rules should look, or you'll have well-thought-out reasons that you can present to your players explaining why the current rule adds to the game. Again, we can argue that they should just accept "because that's the rule here", and that's not wrong, but it's also probably not a fun equilibrium for anyone.

[Unoriginal]

"I'm the DM, and I like this rule, and I made it clear to the players that we're using it" is a perfectly consistent viewpoint. I get that.

However, if this issue is causing this much tension at your table, I think you owe it to both yourself and your players to consider why it's important to you. What gameplay or player decisions are you trying to add to the game?

Regardless of *why* OP wants this rule, or what the rule is, that is not the issue.


The issue is that OP made clear which rule was used, the players all agreed to it, and then some of them disrespected OP and the other players by not caring enough to play by the rules.

This is what's creating tension. OP did nothing wrong.

[Keravath]

Yeah was trying to avoid being the hard ruler on this but we'll see. It's annoying as usually this group is really good on things.

It's Roll20. The character sheets are all available to the DM. In addition, I have it set up in my games so that all the players can see each others character sheets if they want to (nothing to hide at the moment and this way they can help each other out).

This makes checking encumbrance a 2 second task (depending on Roll20 lag).

If folks are way over - find out where their stuff is being carried - is it in a backpack? On a mule? In a saddle bag? Saddlebags and other methods of transportation will probably satisfy most collectors but the player needs to realize that the character won't be able to carry around 500lbs of gear. Also, if they want to pull out some item to solve a problem or a new weapon in combat, it is similarly easy to make sure it is present on their character sheet.

I've often found that overages in encumbrance are due to not deleting items. For example, classes start with certain armor but then the character upgrades and forgets to remove the old armor. It can be very easy to go over encumbrance by simply forgetting (or not knowing how) to delete items from inventory that you aren't actually carrying around.

One more suggestion is to use the Roll20 inventory for what the character is actually carrying. Have a separate page/handout for stored items - horse/saddlebag/cart/bag of holding - unfortunately these are manual, however they are also group maintained so the player who actually doesn't mind inventory management can be designated master of loot and keep the storage updated.

[Sigreid]

I'd tell everyone in a group chat or email "Look guys, I really prefer to run a game using encumbrance. It's intergal to the way I run the game. If you're not willing to play with encumbrance this isn't a game I want to run. Doesn't mean you aren't great people that I enjoy playing with, but this is a deal breaker for me to be willing to put the time and energy into the DM role."

[Fishyninja]

It's Roll20. The character sheets are all available to the DM. In addition, I have it set up in my games so that all the players can see each others character sheets if they want to (nothing to hide at the moment and this way they can help each other out).

This makes checking encumbrance a 2 second task (depending on Roll20 lag).

If folks are way over - find out where their stuff is being carried - is it in a backpack? On a mule? In a saddle bag? Saddlebags and other methods of transportation will probably satisfy most collectors but the player needs to realize that the character won't be able to carry around 500lbs of gear. Also, if they want to pull out some item to solve a problem or a new weapon in combat, it is similarly easy to make sure it is present on their character sheet.

I've often found that overages in encumbrance are due to not deleting items. For example, classes start with certain armor but then the character upgrades and forgets to remove the old armor. It can be very easy to go over encumbrance by simply forgetting (or not knowing how) to delete items from inventory that you aren't actually carrying around.

One more suggestion is to use the Roll20 inventory for what the character is actually carrying. Have a separate page/handout for stored items - horse/saddlebag/cart/bag of holding - unfortunately these are manual, however they are also group maintained so the player who actually doesn't mind inventory management can be designated master of loot and keep the storage updated.

Someone in the this thread kindly sent me a link to some sheets like that. I have contacted the group with my decision just waiting for the responses now.