Can [Evil] change its ways?

[cartejos]

Could a creature with the Evil subtype be good aligned?
And if a creature with the Evil subtype was converted to good would it lose its subtype?
I am just unsure about a lot of the alignment stuff

[Telonius]

Yes, an [Evil] creature can change to Good alignment. It's extremely rare, but it does happen. (A famous example was posted on WOTC, Eludecia the Succubus Paladin). Changing alignment doesn't change the subtype. So, for example, Eludecia would ping as a "yes" to Detect Evil, Detect Good, Detect Law, and Detect Chaos. The best way I've found to keep it straight in my head, is to imagine that Evil (or Good, Law, Chaos) is an actual physical thing that Demons and Devils are made of. Deciding to be Good based on their own free will doesn't change the fact that they're literally made of Evil.

There are ways to remove the [Evil] subtype - most notable is from Savage Species, and involves an expensive ritual.

[hamishspence]

Yup. I'd modify it slightly by saying that it's their home plane that is "the essence of evil" - with them being partly made of that home plane's material.


An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence.

Evil Subtype
A subtype usually applied only to outsiders native to the evil-aligned Outer Planes.

[Segev]

There are such examples, yes. I find them irritating because it seems to me like saying a [Fire] subtype creature can replace so much of itself with water that it's now a water elemental, but it still has the [Fire] subtype. Hamishspence's take on them being composed of the material of their plane...kind-of works, but begs questions about what "the substance of [evil]" is, if it isn't inherently aligned in such a way that it can persist in the face of being used for so much Good that the thing it makes up is Good-aligned.

When a section of an outer plane becomes too aligned with another outer plane and not sufficiently aligned with the one it's on, it actually shifts to the plane to which it is now more closely aligned. Gate Towns on the Outlands repeatedly get swallowed by the Outer Plane to which they lead as they become more heavily populated by beings that are aligned with that Outer Plane. New Gate Towns get built around the still-present Gate, on the Outlands side of it. Cubes in Acheron have fallen into Baator when they've grown too Evil, and I think regions of Baator have become cubes in Acheron for getting too Lawful and not Evil enough.

Their substance, the alignment-stuff they're made of, fundamentally changed because their overall alignment did.

That is how I conceive it should work with Outsiders and others with an alignment subtype, too: when a succubus actually becomes LG, she should stop being a succubus and become something analogous - perhaps something unique - with the [Lawful] and [Good] subtypes, no longer possessing the [Chaotic] and [Evil] ones. Her Lawful Good nature corrupted and changed her substance so she is no longer made of [Chaos] and [Evil], just as a fortress in the Abyss that became too purely Lawful and Good would slip its way into the Seven Heavens.

[hamishspence]

While it's very common for fallen celestials to become fiends, it's not universal. Some simply remain "celestials" - at least for a while.


I'd suggest that it's relocating that does it. When a fallen celestial is forced to reside in the Lower Planes, the stuff of the Lower Planes seeps into the celestial, and eventually its native plane changes - so, whenever it is banished from the Material Plane, it will automatically go to its new home rather than to its old one. And finally, the Good subtype will be replaced with the appropriate subtypes for that lower plane - by which point it has fully changed from "celestial" to "fiend".


But without this relocation, the subtypes don't change.


That's why, say, Fall from Grace, is still a fiend despite being Lawful Neutral. Because she doesn't live in any of the Upper Planes - she lives in Sigil, the True Neutral Outer Plane. The appropriate Upper Plane would have to let her in, and she'd have to spend a long time there, to change her subtypes. Or, go through the relevant Savage Species rituals.

Hamishspence's take on them being composed of the material of their plane...kind-of works, but begs questions about what "the substance of [evil]" is, if it isn't inherently aligned in such a way that it can persist in the face of being used for so much Good that the thing it makes up is Good-aligned.

I'm quoting directly from the MM.

Could a creature with the Evil subtype be good aligned?
And if a creature with the Evil subtype was converted to good would it lose its subtype?
I am just unsure about a lot of the alignment stuff

Using Savage Species, it's possible for the reverse - a Good creature to undergo the [Evil] ritual - and if it is lucky enough to pass the relevant saving throws, it will both survive, and remain Good.

The ritual is capable of imbuing the creature with [Evil] without changing the creature's alignment from Good to Evil.

[The_Jette]

Could a creature with the Evil subtype be good aligned?
And if a creature with the Evil subtype was converted to good would it lose its subtype?
I am just unsure about a lot of the alignment stuff

I'm pretty sure that there are details for how to accomplish this in the Book of Exalted Deeds. I have it at home, but am currently AFB. Plus, it's been a very long time since I've used it.

[Segev]

While it's very common for fallen celestials to become fiends, it's not universal. Some simply remain "celestials" - at least for a while.


I'd suggest that it's relocating that does it. When a fallen celestial is forced to reside in the Lower Planes, the stuff of the Lower Planes seeps into the celestial, and eventually its native plane changes - so, whenever it is banished from the Material Plane, it will automatically go to its new home rather than to its old one. And finally, the Good subtype will be replaced with the appropriate subtypes for that lower plane - by which point it has fully changed from "celestial" to "fiend".


But without this relocation, the subtypes don't change.


That's why, say, Fall from Grace, is still a fiend despite being Lawful Neutral. Because she doesn't live in any of the Upper Planes - she lives in Sigil, the True Neutral Outer Plane. The appropriate Upper Plane would have to let her in, and she'd have to spend a long time there, to change her subtypes. Or, go through the relevant Savage Species rituals.

Interesting, but still problematic conceptually. I can give more of a pass because Sigil is kind-of the home to "that shouldn't work" paradoxes that DMs are invited to come up with their own mystery-answers to to play with.

I'm quoting directly from the MM.

Okay, the MM's take begs the question of what it actually means to be "composed of evil." It's still bad worldbuilding, to my mind.

Using Savage Species, it's possible for the reverse - a Good creature to undergo the [Evil] ritual - and if it is lucky enough to pass the relevant saving throws, it will both survive, and remain Good.

The ritual is capable of imbuing the creature with [Evil] without changing the creature's alignment from Good to Evil.

This, much like the casting of [evil] spells as handled in the RAW, strikes me as putting the cart before the horse. It shouldn't be possible to under go "the evil ritual" and remain good for the same reason that it shouldn't be possible to rape, pillage, and murder innocents in a quest to annihilate a culture because you dislike the way they design hats...and remain good.

[hamishspence]

I'm pretty sure that there are details for how to accomplish this in the Book of Exalted Deeds. I have it at home, but am currently AFB. Plus, it's been a very long time since I've used it.

The "redemption through lots of Diplomacy checks" method doesn't work on Outsiders with the [Evil] subtype, and the Sanctified Creature template (applied through use of the Sanctify the Wicked spell) cannot be applied to Outsiders with the [Evil] subtype either.

Oddly, the template does discuss what happens when it's applied to various fiend subraces - they lose the traits of their subrace.


Since there's a Savage Species ritual for changing subtypes (which doesn't necessarily change the creature's alignment) - I'd speculate that the rules for Sanctified Yugoloths, etc, come into play when their [Evil] subtype has been removed beforehand, but their alignment is still Evil, making the an eligible target for the Sanctify the Wicked spell.


So - fiend undergoes Savage Species Ritual of Good - has its [evil] subtype replaced with Good, its alignment is still Evil, it undergoes the Sanctify the Wicked spell, and it is now a Sanctified Creature.

It shouldn't be possible to under go "the evil ritual" and remain good for the same reason that it shouldn't be possible to rape, pillage, and murder innocents in a quest to annihilate a culture because you dislike the way they design hats...and remain good.

Sometimes a being is just that strong-willed.

[Segev]

Sometimes a being is just that strong-willed.

To emphasize the point I was making, which I'm not sure you got, to properly apply your point here to what I'm saying, you would have to be trying to say: "Sometimes a being is just that strong-willed, that they can rape, pillage, and murder in an attempt to genocide a culture because he dislikes the way that culture wears hats."

You can be "strong willed" enough to be good despite committing overtly and grossly evil acts for petty reasons?

[hamishspence]

Changing your subtype may not be for a "petty reason". For example, the character may need to masquerade as a fiend.


There are good reasons why a good creature might want the [Evil] subtype for a short period.

There are even sensible reasons why an Evil cleric might help that Good creature. Such as the whole Blood War thing.


You could have a guy who wants to disguise themselves as a demon for a short time, so they seek out a Lawful Evil cleric, who is glad to help thwart the plots of demons.


And conversely, the Forces of Good might end up discovering, the hard way, that if you manipulate a powerful fiend into undergoing the ritual willingly (it only works on willing creatures), they come out of it with [Good] subtype but still having an evil alignment.


D&D is just that kind of world - a world where subtypes and alignments do not actually have to match.

[Segev]

Changing your subtype may not be for a "petty reason". For example, the character may need to masquerade as a fiend.


There are good reasons why a good creature might want the [Evil] subtype for a short period.

There are even sensible reasons why an Evil cleric might help that Good creature. Such as the whole Blood War thing.


You could have a guy who wants to disguise themselves as a demon for a short time, so they seek out a Lawful Evil cleric, who is glad to help thwart the plots of demons.


And conversely, the Forces of Good might end up discovering, the hard way, that if you manipulate a powerful fiend into undergoing the ritual willingly (it only works on willing creatures), they come out of it with [Good] subtype but still having an evil alignment.

I'm...unsure if you're catching my point.

It's harder to codify with "the [good] ritual," so I'll stick with the [evil] one for this: what I'm saying is that undergoing the [evil] ritual should require you to perform some pretty abominable things. "Rape, torture, and then kill these twenty unwilling, innocent virgins," for example, should be the sort of thing that the one undergoing the ritual has to do, for the same reason that you have to expose dough to heat in order to bake bread.

Which is why I am ing at the notion that being "strong willed" can let you do this and remain Good-aligned. I acknowledge that the RAW permit you to do so, and thus the ritual possibly doesn't include any actual evil deeds on the part of the person undergoing it. I'm saying that's bad design.

[hamishspence]

what I'm saying is that undergoing the [evil] ritual should require you to perform some pretty abominable things.

But it doesn't, according to Savage Species.

I don't see that as bad design - I see that as a feature, to make players who want to be nonevil characters with the [Evil] subtype, happy.

"Rape, torture, and then kill these twenty unwilling, innocent virgins," for example, should be the sort of thing that the one undergoing the ritual has to do, for the same reason that you have to expose dough to heat in order to bake bread.

Don't think of it as the character or the caster committing lots of actions - think of it as the caster opening a short-lived portal to the plane of Hades, and flooding the target with "Hades energy".

If they pass a DC25 Will Save - they come out of it with [Evil] subtype and no alignment change. If they only roll high enough to pass a DC20 save but would fail a DC25 one, they change alignment to Evil. And if they fail that DC20 Will save, they simply die.

[Segev]

But it doesn't, according to Savage Species.

I don't see that as bad design - I see that as a feature, to make players who want to be nonevil characters with the [Evil] subtype, happy.

Don't think of it as the character or the caster committing lots of actions - think of it as the caster opening a short-lived portal to the plane of Hades, and flooding the target with "Hades energy".

If they pass a DC25 Will Save - they come out of it with [Evil] subtype and no alignment change. If they only roll high enough to pass a DC20 save but would fail a DC25 one, they change alignment to Evil. And if they fail that DC20 will save, they simply die.

I see permitting creatures of the [evil] subtype who are not evil to be the same as permitting creatures of Good alignment who rape, pillage, and torture and never do a single nice thing for anybody except accidentally or for great personal reward.

Or, alternatively, I see it as promoting the notion that [evil] is not evil, and the Team Evil Jersey of the [evil] subtype can't tell you a thing about the person wearing it. It invites settings where the BBEG and all of his myriad followers commit the most vile of atrocities while claiming to be good with all the justification they need from having the [good] subtype. i.e., it divorces the subtypes from alignment entirely, since coincidence and correlation are not causation.

[hamishspence]

It invites settings where the BBEG and all of his myriad followers commit the most vile of atrocities while claiming to be good with all the justification they need from having the [good] subtype. i.e., it divorces the subtypes from alignment entirely, since coincidence and correlation are not causation.

Beings do detect as their actual alignments as well as their subtype. And spells work appropriately too.

An Evil fallen angel will take full damage from a holy weapon, for example.

Committing atrocities will change your alignment to evil regardless of what your subtype is.

I see permitting creatures of the [evil] subtype who are not evil to be the same as permitting creatures of Good alignment who rape, pillage, and torture and never do a single nice thing for anybody except accidentally or for great personal reward.

A more appropriately mirrored example would be:


"I see permitting creatures of the [evil] subtype who are not evil to be the same as permitting creatures of the [good] subtype who are not good."


Both are permitted.

[Anymage]

I want to point out here that in 5e, a devil who stops being LE stops being a devil. So while it's possible for that one in a million creature to change its ways and buck its nature, doing so strips some elements of that nature from it. I don't think there's any explicit formula or template for fallen celestials or risen fiends in the rules, but at least that's the new metapysics intrinsic to the setting

So to Segev: You're absolutely right. Attempting to take 3.5's keywords and rules and turn them into a consistent moral philosophy is going to result in nonsense. 3.5 is no longer being updated and the current edition of the game at least tries to have more sensible fluff, so I don't know what more you want.

[hamishspence]

I want to point out here that in 5e, a devil who stops being LE stops being a devil.

True - but a celestial who stops being Good, in 5e, can still be a celestial. For one type of celestial, the empyrean, it is specifically stated that 25% of them are Neutral Evil.

3.5 is no longer being updated and the current edition of the game at least tries to have more sensible fluff, so I don't know what more you want.

This isn't a 5e thread. This is a 3.5 thread. We're discussing how the 3.5 rules are, not how we'd like them to be.

[GreatWyrmGold]

There are such examples, yes. I find them irritating because it seems to me like saying a [Fire] subtype creature can replace so much of itself with water that it's now a water elemental, but it still has the [Fire] subtype.

Personally, the part I find irritating is that something can be "made of evil". What makes demonflesh more evil than human flesh or a raw steak? It reminds me of Euthyphro's Dilemma, specifically the half where morality is ultimately just an arbitrary set of rules decreed by the gods.

And while I'm at it, the idea that a whole kind of intelligent creature can be inherently good or evil also rubs me the wrong way. Part of that is philosophical, but the fact that real people have used such claims about real kinds of people and used such claims to justify mistreating or exterminating them has soured me on this particular trope. Plus, it strikes me as lazy writing; instead of writing even a basic motivation for the bad guys, just say they're evil and do evil things because they're evil. There's probably something you can do artistically with the idea of an inherently evil being, but within a rounding error, nobody ever does this.

This, much like the casting of [evil] spells as handled in the RAW, strikes me as putting the cart before the horse. It shouldn't be possible to under go "the evil ritual" and remain good for the same reason that it shouldn't be possible to rape, pillage, and murder innocents in a quest to annihilate a culture because you dislike the way they design hats...and remain good.

I see permitting creatures of the [evil] subtype who are not evil to be the same as permitting creatures of Good alignment who rape, pillage, and torture and never do a single nice thing for anybody except accidentally or for great personal reward.

This makes sense if we presuppose that "the evil ritual" infusing a being with "evil" affects a being's personality in such a way that they're more prone to rape, murder, and pillaging. You clearly made that presupposition, but not everyone does. They don't see the (Evil) subtype making someone bound to cruelty any more than a tiefling's fiendish blood does.

This brings us to the question of what connects evil subtypes, evil planes, evil spells, evil actions, etc, which I'm sure has a potentially interesting metaphysical explanation but that explanation has (to my knowledge) never been written.

[hamishspence]

4e (in BOVD the 4e version) takes the approach that Evil is an intrusion to the universe - "vile darkness", and that Good is the universe's protective response to that intrusion.

And while I'm at it, the idea that a whole kind of intelligent creature can be inherently good or evil also rubs me the wrong way. Part of that is philosophical, but the fact that real people have used such claims about real kinds of people and used such claims to justify mistreating or exterminating them has soured me on this particular trope. Plus, it strikes me as lazy writing; instead of writing even a basic motivation for the bad guys, just say they're evil and do evil things because they're evil. There's probably something you can do artistically with the idea of an inherently evil being, but within a rounding error, nobody ever does this.

I tend to agree actually.

[ezekielraiden]

People have already covered the fact that the Book of Extreme Delusions permits ridiculous notions and makes even more nonsense out of the alignment system than there already was, so I'm going to set that aside. Instead of answering what is RAW, since there's nothing more to say about it, I'm going to say what I do and have done. I don't run 3.x, but I would do the same things if I did.

In my game, being a devil or a demon isn't just a metaphysical status. Beings didn't just pop into existence with those labels. Originally, they were all "servants" (an intentionally vague term) of a being called the One, whom the main religious order of the region revere as the monotheistic and infinite creator of all things. (This view is disputed by at least two other major religious groups, and I have intentionally avoided giving a clear answer one way or the other.) According to their doctrine, the One (in Their aspect as the Great Architect) set the planes and worlds in motion, and tasked various servants with attending to the needs of creation, and once it was populated, encouraging and inspiring the mortal (and semi-immortal) residents thereof to moral and upstanding behavior. However, the One's servants were absolutely forbidden to use their power to force anyone to obey, even if that meant delaying or derailing the divine plan for a particular person, group, or place.

A significant contingent of servants, led by a charismatic one who would go on to become known as Asmodeus, chafed under this restriction. They could see (for many servants were gifted with foresight) how, if they could just coerce a few mortals here and there, just crush a little bit of dissent, the Plan would take root almost immediately and would need little to no further oppressive acts. They knew, deep down, that the ban against interference with the wills of mortals was putting compassion before efficiency and justice before practicality. So they rebelled. Not against the ultimate Plan, mind you; the rebel servants were still dedicated to seeing a world flourishing, where every soul is fully actualized and every need is fulfilled. They rebelled against the restriction against coercion.

And there was war in heaven.

By the doctrines of the aforementioned religion, this war was over in an instant from mortal understanding, but from a divine understanding it was (literally) infinitely long. Every single celestial or fiendish being you meet is either a veteran of an infinitely long conflict over the fundamental nature of moral behavior, or someone who has opted to choose one of those sides after the fact, fully knowing what choosing that side entails. From an authorial standpoint, this resolves two problems nicely. First, it explains why ALL devils are Lawful Evil (and, as I'll explain later, why ALL demons are CE). Second, and more importantly, it explains why fiends can be sapient, intelligent beings who make moral choices and have moral freedom...and yet do not ever, in practice, choose to do Good. If you stuck to the Evil side of a cause for a truly infinite span of time, you've heard every possible argument, had every possible debate, considered every possible angle and found Evil to be the choice worth making. It would take something truly unprecedented, something that even an infinite iteration of events could not produce for some reason, to make change possible. (And this, too, has come up in my game.)

As I'm sure will surprise no one, the rebel servants lost. And, during the conflict, a third faction besides rebel and loyal arose: those who came to enjoy the violence, the destruction, the wild abandon, purely for its own sake. They came from both sides of the conflict, as the infinite war waged and some servants became disillusioned with the Plan entirely. The rebel servants became devils after the war's end; the anarchist ones became demons. Those who did not rebel remained as they were, or

But the One is not cruel, or at least not cruel In the usual sense. Their preferred punishment is, in general, to give the punished exactly what they asked for. Devils thus changed, fundamentally at their cores. They are now bound by the very ironclad laws they wished to enforce on reality. Forced to live by contract and obligation, both in dealings between themselves and in dealings with mortals. The rigid coercion they wanted to employ now controls them...and, by and large, they like it. Or at least they see it as less a "punishment" and more a "challenge" to prove their way is right. Demons, meanwhile, were also made what they strove to be: beings of insatiable desire, hunger, dissatisfaction. They eat and are never filled, drink and are never quenched, burn with lust that never abates. Only in destruction do they find pleasure, for the Plan and its internal parts no longer support or matter to them. And, as with devils, they're generally okay with this (though the party has seen the sick relief a demon feels upon being truly, completely destroyed.)

So. Doing something comically evil for a literal infinite time fundamentally changed a set of celestials into devils and demons. Their choice is inextricably tied to their nature. Yet the party as also met a succubus who has chosen to abandon her demonic ways. She is the (only living) great-grandmother of our party Bard; she married a mortal man, bore his children, lived a long and full life with him, and wept over his grave when he died. She then took on a monastic's vows and secluded herself in a convent, hoping to someday find peace and absolution, without knowing whether this could ever happen (she is immortal, after all, and if her physical body were killed, she'd just revive in hell and that wouldn't be helpful.) However, after meeting her great-grandson for the first time in many years, she came to a stunning realization: her husband had, in fact, given her a new True Name. She is no longer a proper demon at all; her time living among mortals and becoming attached to the mortal world (evidently she never fell in love during that infinite war!) has changed her a second time, making her something that isn't celestial OR demon, but some other thing entirely. The final piece of the puzzle, however, was passing her demonic power to someone else, specifically her Bardic descendant. Having given up that power to someone who can use it for good (which he has done), she can now die a proper, mortal death...which means she can, possibly, rejoin her husband in whatever fate awaits the souls of the dead.

TL;DR: It is possible to keep some of the trappings of alignment from D&D, including "always Chaotic Evil," but to achieve this you must do some real WORK to make it happen. And often, you must be willing to cut off one or more parts of the existing system, because as written it is either self-contradictory, irrational, or overreaching.

[hamishspence]

People have already covered the fact that the Book of Extreme Delusions permits ridiculous notions and makes even more nonsense out of the alignment system than there already was, so I'm going to set that aside .

Nonevil beings with the [evil] subtype aren't discussed in BOED or BOVD though - but in the MM, under the Evil subtype.

[Segev]

Beings do detect as their actual alignments as well as their subtype. And spells work appropriately too.

An Evil fallen angel will take full damage from a holy weapon, for example.

Committing atrocities will change your alignment to evil regardless of what your subtype is.

Which brings us back to "team jerseys have little to do with what they claim to label." Which is a problem, to me.

A more appropriately mirrored example would be:


"I see permitting creatures of the [evil] subtype who are not evil to be the same as permitting creatures of the [good] subtype who are not good."


Both are permitted.

I agree; they also both shouldn't be.

We're discussing how the 3.5 rules are, not how we'd like them to be.

I thought we were discussing both, myself. What they "are" is often...unsatisfying. I am partial to changing as little as possible to make things make sense and be consistent, but I am not above saying "that's badly done, so I think this is the minimal change necessary to make it better-done."

[hamishspence]

Which brings us back to "team jerseys have little to do with what they claim to label." Which is a problem, to me.

The fact that evil-aligned celestials will be incredibly rare, and will detect as evil to detect evil spells, and will be barred from the Upper planes pretty quickly, is enough to satisfy me.

Players should be concerned with deeds, not "how the creature reacts to spells". To Good PCs, an evil celestial is generally an enemy even if it happens to detect as Good.

The "team jersey" for Good, is actual alignment, not subtype.

All beings with an actual alignment of Good, will consistently behave in a Good fashion overall while they have that alignment, even if they might have occasional lapses.

For "beings with the Good subtype" it's almost all.

I am partial to changing as little as possible to make things make sense and be consistent, but I am not above saying "that's badly done, so I think this is the minimal change necessary to make it better-done."

And for me, removing that snippet of text in each [subtype] bit in the MM, is an excessive change, that kiboshes interesting character concepts from previous editions.

[Remuko]

Could a creature with the Evil subtype be good aligned?
And if a creature with the Evil subtype was converted to good would it lose its subtype?
I am just unsure about a lot of the alignment stuff

Yes they can.

No they don't.

Those are your two answers.

Which brings us back to "team jerseys have little to do with what they claim to label." Which is a problem, to me.


I agree; they also both shouldn't be.

I thought we were discussing both, myself. What they "are" is often...unsatisfying. I am partial to changing as little as possible to make things make sense and be consistent, but I am not above saying "that's badly done, so I think this is the minimal change necessary to make it better-done."

Can you keep this debate back to the other thread about animating dead being evil, instead of dragging it to this one too?

[Crake]

That's why, say, Fall from Grace, is still a fiend despite being Lawful Neutral.

In dnd, being a fiend is literally defined as being an evil aligned outsider, so being lawful neutral means they're not a fiend.

[Segev]

The fact that evil-aligned celestials will be incredibly rare, and will detect as evil to detect evil spells, and will be barred from the Upper planes pretty quickly, is enough to satisfy me.

Players should be concerned with deeds, not "how the creature reacts to spells". To Good PCs, an evil celestial is generally an enemy even if it happens to detect as Good.

The "team jersey" for Good, is actual alignment, not subtype.

All beings with an actual alignment of Good, will consistently behave in a Good fashion overall while they have that alignment, even if they might have occasional lapses.

For "beings with the Good subtype" it's almost all.



And for me, removing that snippet of text in each [subtype] bit in the MM, is an excessive change, that kiboshes interesting character concepts from previous editions.

I still think you're either missing or ignoring my point, and ascribing to me something I'm not saying. I'm not saying that I care particularly about them "fooling" people based on how they detect to spells. I'm saying that I care what cosmic chaos, evil, good, and law mean.

Can you keep this debate back to the other thread about animating dead being evil, instead of dragging it to this one too?

It seems to me it actually fits better in this thread than the other one. It also seems fundamental to the question of whether [evil] creatures can "change their ways" whether or not cosmic evil actually has any direct meaning or bearing on evilness, or is just coincidentally correlated.

[gijoemike]

D&D universe creation relies heavily on the concept of the elements ( Earth, Fire, Air, Water) making up the prime material plane. But in D&D a new axis is brought in to distinguish the heavens and hells (Order(Law), Chaos, Good, Evil). In D&D Order, Chaos, Earth, Fire, Air, Water, Good, and Evil are physical molecules of stuff or types of energy.

Devils when killed turned to goop on the prime material plane. Most outsiders have weird decomposing effects like this. It is because the inert physical material and underlying energy that makes up their body doesn't work right. This is the same reason we can have Fire Genasi, Water Orcs, Shadow plane humans (I forgot the name), Air elemental bloodlines, Axiomatic weapons, etc. Detect spells will pick up on those particles/energy and PING.

But moral alignment over type can have ones aura align (Sorry for the pun) with the energy of those 8 basic planes. So detect spells can ping on that too.

This is also why, spending too much time on an EVIL plane can seep into you and force a moral alignment change. The contamination in ones body can alter ones thoughts.

So, a devil can be morally aligned to chaotic good, an angel can be morally neutral, a demon could become lawful. It is a mess. It has NEVER been properly understood. See that cursed helm of opposite alignment. Alignment isn't a straight jacket to control the actions of a PC. It is how they detect and is an indicator of usual moral direction.

[hamishspence]

Devils when killed turned to goop on the prime material plane. Most outsiders have weird decomposing effects like this. It is because the inert physical material and underlying energy that makes up their body doesn't work right. This is the same reason we can have Fire Genasi, Water Orcs, Shadow plane humans (I forgot the name), Air elemental bloodlines, Axiomatic weapons, etc. Detect spells will pick up on those particles/energy and PING.

But moral alignment over type can have ones aura align (Sorry for the pun) with the energy of those 8 basic planes. So detect spells can ping on that too.

This is also why, spending too much time on an EVIL plane can seep into you and force a moral alignment change. The contamination in ones body can alter ones thoughts.

So, a devil can be morally aligned to chaotic good, an angel can be morally neutral, a demon could become lawful.

Not just that, but later 3.5 books have replaced Always X Alignment with Usually X Alignment (or even Often X alignment) for certain outsiders with subtypes.

MMV has the Arcadian Avenger, a [lawful] [good] outsider which is only usually Lawful Good (most of the exceptions are Lawful Neutral).

Expedition to the Demonweb Pits has the Cambion, a [chaotic] [evil] outsider which is only often Chaotic Evil (most of the exceptions are NE or LE, but a full 10% are Not Evil At All).

In dnd, being a fiend is literally defined as being an evil aligned outsider, so being lawful neutral means they're not a fiend.

No, it's not. The relevant splatbooks that define Fiend (Fiend Folio, for the Fiend of Possession PRC, and BOVD, for the [fiend] component required to cast certain spells, don't say that.


Instead, BOVD defines it as "Outsider from the Lower Planes" and Fiend Folio defines it as "Outsider with the Evil Subtype"


By RAW, a nonevil outsider that happens to have the [Evil] subtype, is eligible for the Fiend of Possession PRC.

By RAW, an evil tiefling (which is an outsider) is not a fiend because it is not from the lower planes and it does not have the [Evil] subtype either. So it may not cast BoVD spells with the [Fiend] component, or take levels in Fiend of Possession.

For that matter, it's possible to be an "outsider from the Lower Planes" and not have the [Evil] subtype at all. The Justicator, from MMIII, is an Outsider from Acheron, and that makes it technically a Fiend for BOVD purposes, despite the fact that it has no [evil] subtype at all.


However - given that BoED uses "Outsider with [Good] subtype" for "Celestial component" - I would say that the Fiend Folio description should replace the BOVD description - and I would errata BOVD that way.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Players should be concerned with deeds, not "how the creature reacts to spells". To Good PCs, an evil celestial is generally an enemy even if it happens to detect as Good.

The "team jersey" for Good, is actual alignment, not subtype.

As a tangent: if I was going to take this "cosmic essence of good/evil" thing in a literary direction, this would be a good place to start.
Without getting too political for this forum, it's safe to say that there are some people who apply labels to people so they don't have to reckon with what someone has or hasn't done. Not all criminals are created equal, for what I hope is a fairly uncontroversial example, yet a felon with a single drug conviction is in many ways treated the same way as felon with multiple murders to their record. On the other hand, someone who murders people and isn't caught/convicted is not a felon and hence not treated as such.
If "cosmic good and evil" are merely how the Powers That Be label people, with only incidental connection to whether the people do good or evil things, then it might become a concept worth exploring. Why would the powers divide people like that? Does that serve a purpose? What purpose does it serve?

Or I could do a take on the Dragonlance scenario where Good and Evil are just team jerseys. I honestly wouldn't need to change much; the Kingpriest of Istar made destructive war on "evil" races, allied with an infamous evil archmage, permitted slavery in his domain, but Paladine didn't see fit to punish him until he announced his intention to disrupt the balance of good and evil?
Mind, I have a lot of problems with how the gods of Dragonlance act beyond alignment stuff (like how they blame mortals for abandoning them when they were the ones who broke the world and left it with no divine spellcasters, after wiping out/rapturing everyone who might put a positive spin on hitting the world with a gods-damning meteor). But only the alignment stuff is relevant to this thread.

...but this is a thread about D&D, and your typical D&D setting/game isn't an ideal place to explore such questions.

D&D universe creation relies heavily on the concept of the elements ( Earth, Fire, Air, Water) making up the prime material plane. But in D&D a new axis is brought in to distinguish the heavens and hells (Order(Law), Chaos, Good, Evil). In D&D Order, Chaos, Earth, Fire, Air, Water, Good, and Evil are physical molecules of stuff or types of energy.

To repeat/rephrase a point I made in my last point: It's obvious what it means for something to be made out of elemental Earth, Wind, or Fire, but what does it mean to be made out of elemental Evil? We call the Elemental Plane of Air that because its elemental essence corresponds with air, but what about the flesh of a demon makes that flesh more "Evil" than that of a human, pig, or angel?

No, it's not. The relevant splatbooks that define Fiend (Fiend Folio, for the Fiend of Possession PRC, and BOVD, for the [fiend] component required to cast certain spells, don't say that.
Instead, BOVD defines it as "Outsider from the Lower Planes" and Fiend Folio defines it as "Outsider with the Evil Subtype"

While these definitions are meaningfully different, it's worth pointing out that the authors of 3.5 (well, late 3.0) had two separate chances to define "fiend," and on neither occasion did they decide to go with the obvious definition of "a fiend is any outsider with an evil alignment". They made fiendishness a matter of environment or species, not personal values.

[hamishspence]

what about the flesh of a demon makes that flesh more "Evil" than that of a human, pig, or angel?

For one thing, it means the ability to overcome the damage reduction of an angel. Regardless of their actual alignment, all beings with the [Evil] subtype, automatically overcome damage reduction x/evil - with their natural attacks, and with any weapons that they wield (Not melee weapons - weapons).

[GreatWyrmGold]

For one thing, it means the ability to overcome the damage reduction of an angel. Regardless of their actual alignment, all beings with the [Evil] subtype, automatically overcome damage reduction x/evil - with their natural attacks, and with any weapons that they wield (Not melee weapons - weapons).

And the claws of a gargoyle* can overcome the damage reduction of a dragon, and vise versa. Does that mean the claws of gargoyles and dragons can be assigned arbitrary opposed designations like "good" and "evil"?
Not to mention that the fact that this effect is applied through its weapons indicates that the cause isn't whatever substance the demon is composed of.

*Why don't they have DR/adamantine?