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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default 4th level: ranger or rogue

    I'm currently playing a gloom stalker yuanti ranger who just leveled up. He's built around being a tamer of beasts and also is generally good at subverting encounters and ending fights before they begin. I've already grabbed expertise in animal handling via ranger but would also like expertise in persuasion at some point. He's also designed to be a horrifyingly good ambush hunter.
    At level 4 I'm faced with a conundrum: do I continue down ranger and grab expertise via a feat, or grab some other handy feat, or do I grab level of rogue for sneak attack and expertise?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Titan in the Playground
     
    J-H's Avatar

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    Default Re: 4th level: ranger or rogue

    Unless you're trying to double down on one specific thing, I find that multiclassing usually hurts more than it helps. You want some of those subclass features, later ASIs, and spells to come on schedule, not late.
    Last edited by J-H; 2021-01-21 at 12:13 PM.

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: 4th level: ranger or rogue

    Interesting indeed.
    Grabbing a rogue level would:
    - Get you Sneak Attack. This is admittedly not that strong as a one level dip, but it is something.
    - Get you expertise. You mentioned that you wanted this for persuasion, which is a pro.
    - Delay getting Extra Attack and 2nd level spells.
    Grabbing expertise with a feat would:
    - First of all, I'm not sure if you even can grab expertise with a feat if you are a yuan-ti.
    - IMO, Gloomstalkers should take rogue levels regardless of whether you want additional expertise or not.
    - Not delay any particular ranger features you want.
    Grabbing a different feat would:
    - Mobile would be very helpful if you are melee-based.
    - Alert would stop enemies from surprising you and taking away your juicy, juicy Dread Ambusher.
    - Not delay extra attack and 2nd level spells.

    Gloomstalker/Assassin builds are very strong shock attackers at mid levels. Taking rogue levels at some point is a good idea, although level 4 is not necessarily the best time to get them. IMO, unless you suspect it will take painstakingly long to get to level 6, you should wait until ranger 5 to grab some rogue levels(although you certainly should get them).

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: 4th level: ranger or rogue

    The rule of thumb definitely holds true here: get 5th level first before you MC (Unless you are doing a 1 level dip to start). 2nd level spells and multi attack: yes please!
    Rogue maybe later.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Re: 4th level: ranger or rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSnowHatHero View Post
    Interesting indeed.
    Grabbing a rogue level would:
    - Get you Sneak Attack. This is admittedly not that strong as a one level dip, but it is something.
    - Get you expertise. You mentioned that you wanted this for persuasion, which is a pro.
    - Delay getting Extra Attack and 2nd level spells.
    Grabbing expertise with a feat would:
    - First of all, I'm not sure if you even can grab expertise with a feat if you are a yuan-ti.
    - IMO, Gloomstalkers should take rogue levels regardless of whether you want additional expertise or not.
    - Not delay any particular ranger features you want.
    Grabbing a different feat would:
    - Mobile would be very helpful if you are melee-based.
    - Alert would stop enemies from surprising you and taking away your juicy, juicy Dread Ambusher.
    - Not delay extra attack and 2nd level spells.

    Gloomstalker/Assassin builds are very strong shock attackers at mid levels. Taking rogue levels at some point is a good idea, although level 4 is not necessarily the best time to get them. IMO, unless you suspect it will take painstakingly long to get to level 6, you should wait until ranger 5 to grab some rogue levels(although you certainly should get them).
    Tashas added one in that lets you do that.
    Quote Originally Posted by 5eNeedsDarksun View Post
    The rule of thumb definitely holds true here: get 5th level first before you MC (Unless you are doing a 1 level dip to start). 2nd level spells and multi attack: yes please!
    Rogue maybe later.
    That was kinda the debate I was having. Multi attack and several spells I need next level is kinds hard to pass up. But if I go ranger do I grab the expertise feat or something else? Alternatively I could bump either dex or Wis to +5 or cha to +4

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: 4th level: ranger or rogue

    Just one guy's opinion: Get to Ranger 5 ASAP, then dip Rogue. (use your ASI for Dex or something else more useful than expertise)

    At this point your next real decision is should I ever take any more Ranger levels?
    Last edited by da newt; 2021-01-21 at 03:43 PM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: 4th level: ranger or rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by moonfly7 View Post
    Tashas added one in that lets you do that.


    That was kinda the debate I was having. Multi attack and several spells I need next level is kinds hard to pass up. But if I go ranger do I grab the expertise feat or something else? Alternatively I could bump either dex or Wis to +5 or cha to +4
    Is expertise worth a feat? In our group persuasion wouldn't be; maybe it is in yours. I did have a Paladin I built around adding a level of rogue for Expertise Athletics and Shield Mastery, so I get that certain skills can be good for some groups. I'm surprised Dex ASI isn't at the top of your list though.

    In a longer term view people definitely look for an 'offramp' for Rangers. I played my gloomstalker to 9 for 3rd level spells then took Rogue and Fighter levels to make a better melee. Others go to 5th then look to go cleric or ranger to boost spells. I'd think about what you want for your character further down the road.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    FabulousFizban's Avatar

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    Default Re: 4th level: ranger or rogue

    get to ranger 5, then start taking rogue levels at 6. ranger5/rogue5 is pretty good
    May I borrow some bat guano? It's for a spell...

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: 4th level: ranger or rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by 5eNeedsDarksun View Post
    Is expertise worth a feat? In our group persuasion wouldn't be; maybe it is in yours. I did have a Paladin I built around adding a level of rogue for Expertise Athletics and Shield Mastery, so I get that certain skills can be good for some groups. I'm surprised Dex ASI isn't at the top of your list though.
    Its a half feat and you get a skill as well. I don't know that I'd say its a powerful feat but I'm personally satisfied that its a good feat in that its passable and allows people to fulfill character concepts. I'd agree likely not better than an ASI but *shrugs*

    More broadly - I'd agree with everyone else. I'd typically only multiclass before 5 if there was an important reason to do so mechanically or it was very important to the character concept. If you aren't sure, stick with ranger and re-evaluate after you've hit level 5.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Re: 4th level: ranger or rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by Contrast View Post
    Its a half feat and you get a skill as well. I don't know that I'd say its a powerful feat but I'm personally satisfied that its a good feat in that its passable and allows people to fulfill character concepts. I'd agree likely not better than an ASI but *shrugs*

    More broadly - I'd agree with everyone else. I'd typically only multiclass before 5 if there was an important reason to do so mechanically or it was very important to the character concept. If you aren't sure, stick with ranger and re-evaluate after you've hit level 5.
    Thanks, I've pretty much committed to that at this point. Normally I don't multiclass, especially ranger(We always used revised and I loved it, and with Tashas I've greatly enjoyed the changes) but for once I'm considering it because the class doesn't offer a ton more past a certain level for this specific concept

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Oct 2015

    Default Re: 4th level: ranger or rogue

    While your gloomstalker is no doubt a great fighting class, if you wanted to make a "party face" ranger you might wanna check our Fey Wanderer instead. It adds the wis bonus to all charisma checks.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Banned
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: 4th level: ranger or rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by moonfly7 View Post
    I'm currently playing a gloom stalker yuanti ranger who just leveled up. He's built around being a tamer of beasts and also is generally good at subverting encounters and ending fights before they begin. I've already grabbed expertise in animal handling via ranger but would also like expertise in persuasion at some point. He's also designed to be a horrifyingly good ambush hunter.
    At level 4 I'm faced with a conundrum: do I continue down ranger and grab expertise via a feat, or grab some other handy feat, or do I grab level of rogue for sneak attack and expertise?
    What's your purpose with being good at persuasion? Just in general or do you act like the face of the group? In either way I suggest waiting until after level 5 to multiclass Ranger. You will want that extra attack and you don't want to delay it.

    As for getting a few levels of Rogue, go for it. I suggest going for the Scout subclass which seems to fit your character concept quite well. Three or four levels should be enough if you want to focus on the ranger part, if not, up to seven levels of rogue goes very well with Ranger.

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