How do you feel about the Eldritch Knight?

[ZRN]

Also once level three spells come on line, an action surge double fireball

Is this legal? I thought it was one spell per turn max.

[ImproperJustice]

Is this legal? I thought it was one spell per turn max.

It’s unnecessarily confusing but according to the great JC, the rule on bonus action spells and cantrips does not apply to Action Surge since it provides a whole other “Action”.

He even specifically says that two Fireball castings are valid.

Meaning that outside of Multi-Classing the EK has the unique distinction of being able to Double Fireball.

Ie. Dropping 16d6 Fire Damage in a 20’ radius at the start of a mid tier fight is a nice way to nova and shift things in the party’s favor.

[Valmark]

Is this legal? I thought it was one spell per turn max.

No. There is a limitation if you cast a spell as a bonus action, in which case you can only cast a cantrip as your action- but if don't use the bonus action for a spell then anything else is fair game.

[LudicSavant]

Is this legal? I thought it was one spell per turn max.

The restriction you're thinking of only applies to bonus actions, like Quicken Spell. Action Surge has no such restrictions.

[Kane0]

Action surge is precisely why a caster would want a second level in fighter when dipping, it gives you another action which bypasses the bonus-action-spell-now-only-cantrips-for-you rule.

[Eldariel]

Its subclass features aside from spellcasting are mostly **** but obviously getting spellcasting at all on a Fighter chassis is supernice and certainly competitive with any other Fighter subclass. So it's strong but the design (the schools available, the subclass features) leaves a lot to be desired. War Magic is bad if you're built for damage, Eldritch Strike is strong but it's kinda hard for an EK to capitalise on, Arcane Charge is...eh, it's okay. And Improved War Magic is just bleh.

[Tanarii]

I feel like Bladesinger just does it better, because eldritch knight is trying to play at being a fighter/evoker, which isn't a great combination, while bladesinger can meld magic and melee much more effectively (and has the superior method of casting with one hand and attacking with the other; level 6 bladesinger can cantrip and attack OR attack twice, while an eldritch knight has to wait to level 7 and can cast a cantrip as his action and spend a bonus action on a single attack).

Bladesingers aren't actually very good at melee though. They're just Wizards with a touch of melee. Kinda like blade locks are a Warlocks with a touch of melee. If you're expecting them to be a true GISH you're going to run into problems.

OTOH it's fair to say EKs are fighters with a touch of magic, and if you're expecting them to be true GISH you're going to run into problems.

So the same way you can Multiclassing an EK to bring it up on casteryness by sacrificing fighteryness, you can Multiclassing a bladesigner to bring it up on figheryness by sacrificing casteryness.

Regardless, Str/Int EKs are one of the best single class choices out there.

[Eldariel]

Bladesingers aren't actually very good at melee though. They're just Wizards with a touch of melee. Kinda like blade locks are a Warlocks with a touch of melee. If you're expecting them to be a true GISH you're going to run into problems.

I dunno if melee Wizards are even that bad (or rather, Wizards bad in melee). I mean, you can get HP, AC and resistances (and of course, miss chance and such) from spells so while you consume resources where non-casters don't, you can generally get comparable or better numbers when necessary and you still do have casting resources left over. Bladesinger gives them some stuff to do in melee (at least up until a point), so that's nice. BB + attack is actually pretty decent (exactly War Magic except leaving your bonus action open as it happens), to the point that it's competitive with most GWM/SS builds damage wise if using Shadow Blade, up until level 20 in Fighter.

In this edition, you can cast spells at will in melee and Wizard has pretty similar stats in melee as a Fighter. Like Fighter-types don't actually get many meaningful combat advantages and monsters are largely terrible about punishing casters from not giving a ****. Even my definitely-not-tanky 14 Dex/14 Con Diviner with no defensive investments spent more than a few rounds drawing attention in melee just to give the actual meatshields some breathing room when things got bad; between Mage Armor, Shield, Alert + Pyrotechnics and Absorb Elements it's not really that big of a problem. On the contrary, a Wizard is actually pretty good at it.

[Segev]

Bladesingers aren't actually very good at melee though. They're just Wizards with a touch of melee. Kinda like blade locks are a Warlocks with a touch of melee. If you're expecting them to be a true GISH you're going to run into problems.

OTOH it's fair to say EKs are fighters with a touch of magic, and if you're expecting them to be true GISH you're going to run into problems.

So the same way you can Multiclassing an EK to bring it up on casteryness by sacrificing fighteryness, you can Multiclassing a bladesigner to bring it up on figheryness by sacrificing casteryness.

Regardless, Str/Int EKs are one of the best single class choices out there.

I dunno if melee Wizards are even that bad (or rather, Wizards bad in melee). I mean, you can get HP, AC and resistances (and of course, miss chance and such) from spells so while you consume resources where non-casters don't, you can generally get comparable or better numbers when necessary and you still do have casting resources left over. Bladesinger gives them some stuff to do in melee (at least up until a point), so that's nice. BB + attack is actually pretty decent (exactly War Magic except leaving your bonus action open as it happens), to the point that it's competitive with most GWM/SS builds damage wise if using Shadow Blade, up until level 20 in Fighter.

In this edition, you can cast spells at will in melee and Wizard has pretty similar stats in melee as a Fighter. Like Fighter-types don't actually get many meaningful combat advantages and monsters are largely terrible about punishing casters from not giving a ****. Even my definitely-not-tanky 14 Dex/14 Con Diviner with no defensive investments spent more than a few rounds drawing attention in melee just to give the actual meatshields some breathing room when things got bad; between Mage Armor, Shield, Alert + Pyrotechnics and Absorb Elements it's not really that big of a problem. On the contrary, a Wizard is actually pretty good at it.

Yeah, between bounded accuracy, wizard protection magics, and the fact that proficiency is class-agnostic, I am struggling to understand the claim that wizards "aren't that good in melee." Heck, Bladesinger gets the biggest thing that pure martial classes get to keep their melee damage increasing: extra attack.

I'm not going to say fighters don't have their own things to bring to the table, but I am hard-pressed to see the argument that wizards with the additions Bladesinger gives to them as being all that far behind them. Particularly EKs, who are busy spending their subclass features on being mini-wizards.

[Kane0]

Largely comes down to HP, save proficiencies and AC without Bladesinging turned on.

Which admittedly is not a huge gap.

[Eldariel]

Largely comes down to HP, save proficiencies and AC without Bladesinging turned on.

Which admittedly is not a huge gap.

Yeah, the HP difference is...almost insignificant. At least past the first two levels. I find it really dumb that warriors don't get more out of Con than other classes: this basically drops the HP differential down to margin when Con is by far the bigger contributor (except for stuff like Moon Druid where they have an actual significant source of extra HP). I personally give warrior classes (Fighter, Barbie, Paladin, Ranger) 2xCon HP for all levels in that class instead to make the differential a bit more substantial but that's my house rules. Save proficiencies even out: both have one big save and one minor one. Concentration would be nice for a caster but it's generally accessible. And it's fine while Bladesinging. AC...yeah, a point or three depending on the exact build. Overall, it doesn't feel all that meaningful in practice. Ways to give enemies Disadvantage on attacks, the Reaction spells, etc. feel like they more than make up for all that.

[Segev]

Largely comes down to HP, save proficiencies and AC without Bladesinging turned on.

Which admittedly is not a huge gap.

Indeed, thanks to bounded accuracy. The bladesinger is more a striker than a tank, but that's still a fighty class build, and they have spells and ways to make up for the lower saves and AC. Heck, between shield and false life, the only things to worry about are save-or-be-disabled and things that can knock them out of Concentration. Not insignificant, but hardly "way behind a fighter."

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Yeah, between bounded accuracy, wizard protection magics, and the fact that proficiency is class-agnostic, I am struggling to understand the claim that wizards "aren't that good in melee." Heck, Bladesinger gets the biggest thing that pure martial classes get to keep their melee damage increasing: extra attack.

I'm not going to say fighters don't have their own things to bring to the table, but I am hard-pressed to see the argument that wizards with the additions Bladesinger gives to them as being all that far behind them. Particularly EKs, who are busy spending their subclass features on being mini-wizards.

I guess I'll find out in my next campaign as a player. I've turfed the EK and am going for Fighter 2/ Bladesinger X or Battlemaster 3/ Bladesinger X for probably 12 total levels. HP and ASIs will definitely be less, but other that that it just seems like a win nearly everywhere else, including swinging a sword. 6th level Bladesinger multiattack is just better than every other option; Bladesinging isn't even necessary if you chuck on the heavy armor and grab a 2 handed weapon.

[Eldariel]

I guess I'll find out in my next campaign as a player. I've turfed the EK and am going for Fighter 2/ Bladesinger X or Battlemaster 3/ Bladesinger X for probably 12 total levels. HP and ASIs will definitely be less, but other that that it just seems like a win nearly everywhere else, including swinging a sword. 6th level Bladesinger multiattack is just better than every other option; Bladesinging isn't even necessary if you chuck on the heavy armor and grab a 2 handed weapon.

I think for current Bladesinger, it's probably correct to use Bladesong higher up but on the first two Tiers you've got so few uses that you should definitely just put on some armor (unless you're of course playing a straight Bladesinger without investing in any of that; 16 AC from Mage Armor and 16 Dex is still fine of course). You can also just Bladesong in the first two encounters you fight and then equip armor for the remaining ones (it's easier to predict the first two than the last two so I think it's preferable that way). Hell, for straight Bladesinger I don't think Moderately Armored is at all a poor feat at the present state of things. Gets you 19/24 base AC and lets you use that super-Extra Attack even with no Bladesongs left.

[Tanarii]

Yeah, between bounded accuracy, wizard protection magics, and the fact that proficiency is class-agnostic, I am struggling to understand the claim that wizards "aren't that good in melee." Heck, Bladesinger gets the biggest thing that pure martial classes get to keep their melee damage increasing: extra attack.

Significantly lower AC, HPs (4/level with HD recovery), melee Damage (typically 14 Dex vs max Str). The different is night and day. Bladesingers can stand in melee briefly and make some attacks not at disadvantage. They're not hopeless like a normal wizard. But it's not even remotely the same playing field.

Thinking of them as a real melee combatant is like when folks used to complain about the bladelock not being a full blow melee combatant. It's just going to lead to disappointment, because that's not the intent.

[Valmark]

Significantly lower AC, HPs (4/level with HD recovery), melee Damage (typically 14 Dex vs max Str). The different is night and day. Bladesingers can stand in melee briefly and make some attacks not at disadvantage. They're not hopeless like a normal wizard. But it's not even remotely the same playing field.

Thinking of them as a real melee combatant is like when folks used to complain about the bladelock not being a full blow melee combatant. It's just going to lead to disappointment, because that's not the intent.

This is a bit misleading. Significantly lower AC is only if they don't Bladesing nor buff themselves (which they can do better then EKs) and 14 Dex is typical really only if the player doesn't care much to go in melee in the first place and doesn't shoot for a 16 at character creation (16 int and dex is perfectly doable).

And tbh armor+Dex means that they won't have much less AC in any case unless the EK is going weapon&shield. While buffed they can easily get some of the highest scores available.

[Unoriginal]

Yeah, between bounded accuracy, wizard protection magics, and the fact that proficiency is class-agnostic, I am struggling to understand the claim that wizards "aren't that good in melee." Heck, Bladesinger gets the biggest thing that pure martial classes get to keep their melee damage increasing: extra attack.

Proficiency is class-agnostic, ASIs aren't. Wizards need their ASI for other stuff than the melee combat stats, generally.

And despite Eldariel's claim, Wizards are generally not going to be able to compensate the HP difference.

Furthermore, being in melee doesn't only mean you're fighting in melee, it means that you're fighting closer to the back row enemies than usual for a Wizard. Which makes you a more pressing target for said enemies, and a Wizard often doesn't have the toolkit to handle that well.

Indeed, thanks to bounded accuracy. The bladesinger is more a striker than a tank, but that's still a fighty class build, and they have spells and ways to make up for the lower saves and AC. Heck, between shield and false life, the only things to worry about are save-or-be-disabled and things that can knock them out of Concentration. Not insignificant, but hardly "way behind a fighter."

Being targeted by several melee attacks is one of those "can knock them out of Concentration" things.


The Bladesinger is not bad, but they're Wizards with some melee capacities. Not melee combatants with more magic than the EK.

[Segev]

Is dex-based melee significantly weaker than str-based melee? Not asking for any point-proving purpose (at least not directly) but in attempting to set up a mental comparison scenario of twins, one of whom goes Bladesinger and one of whom goes Eldritch Knight. If I can set both to using Dex without cheating the EK, that makes things easier to keep thematic, but I don't want to let theme overcome scientific rigor for a comparison study.

[Valmark]

Is dex-based melee significantly weaker than str-based melee? Not asking for any point-proving purpose (at least not directly) but in attempting to set up a mental comparison scenario of twins, one of whom goes Bladesinger and one of whom goes Eldritch Knight. If I can set both to using Dex without cheating the EK, that makes things easier to keep thematic, but I don't want to let theme overcome scientific rigor for a comparison study.

Don't think so- after all Shadow Blade (which is often mentioned for both casters) doesn't care wether you use Dex or Str. A case could be made about a Heavy weapon with GWM enabled, but that is likely balanced by the loss of accuracy unless the target has low AC.

AC is roughly the same (though the Dex-based one would need Mage Armor to not 'lose' 1 or 2 points of AC depending on the chosen Fighting Style), initiative is decidedly better for the Dex-based EK, we don't care about ranged anyway and a better Dex save is more often relevant then a better Str save but not for the checks.

[Trafalgar]

They look okay on first glance, and while its true that they aren't in dire need of help, there are some design issues.

1. War Magic is invalidated by the time you hit level 11 Fighter. This is probably the worst offender. Having a feature that is invalidated after a certain level is poor design. Also, probably not intended, but most EK use their War Magic for the blade cantrips anyway. But its due to another poor design as you will see...

2. Restrictive spell list that doesn't make sense. 1st level Abjuration has 6 spells, but only 2 are worth considering (Shield, Absorb Elements). Only 1 in 2nd level (Arcane Lock) that most won't bother. Evocation is for doing damage, something that Fighters aren't lack of. Except most Evocation spells deal weak damage in an area, which the Wizard/Sorc/Cleric can deal out easily. So its kind of meh. Your best bet is still to hit things with your weapon.

3. Warcaster is mandatory if you are not going to wield 2 handed weapons. A small issue if your DM don't really enforce spellcasting rules, but unlike Clerics or Paladins, EK dont have the option of using their shield/weapon as a spellcasting Focus. Still, by RAW its dumb.

I agree with all this. I would also say that, when choosing spells, an EK needs to pay more attention to action economy than other casters. I find that spells that cast on a Bonus Action or Reaction are better for an EK than one that casts on an action so you can still use your attack. For example, Shield is a better choice than Blur because Shield casts on a Reaction.

I also think you need to look for spells that can be cast at higher levels since you get so few of them.

[Unoriginal]

Is dex-based melee significantly weaker than str-based melee?

It's a complex question. DEX-based melee will have significantly worse AC than STR-based melee specializing in AC, and significantly worse DPR than STR-based melee specializing in DPR, but not really worse than the non-specialized versions, if you get what I mean.

Overall DEX-based melee can be very good but STR-based melee gives more for your investment.

Not asking for any point-proving purpose (at least not directly) but in attempting to set up a mental comparison scenario of twins, one of whom goes Bladesinger and one of whom goes Eldritch Knight. If I can set both to using Dex without cheating the EK, that makes things easier to keep thematic, but I don't want to let theme overcome scientific rigor for a comparison study.

It's funny, I had started working on that exact comparison. Even with the twins stuff. Then I added a STR-based EK for additional comparison.

I used High Elves with standard array, btw. Stats for the High Elf twins were STR 8 DEX 16 CON 13 WIS 12 INT 16 CHA 10.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I think for current Bladesinger, it's probably correct to use Bladesong higher up but on the first two Tiers you've got so few uses that you should definitely just put on some armor (unless you're of course playing a straight Bladesinger without investing in any of that; 16 AC from Mage Armor and 16 Dex is still fine of course). You can also just Bladesong in the first two encounters you fight and then equip armor for the remaining ones (it's easier to predict the first two than the last two so I think it's preferable that way). Hell, for straight Bladesinger I don't think Moderately Armored is at all a poor feat at the present state of things. Gets you 19/24 base AC and lets you use that super-Extra Attack even with no Bladesongs left.

You've touched on some of the issues I was looking at for character creation. Plate and defensive fighting style is AC 19 vs. as you say AC 19 in limited uses with Bladesong, and then you are worse. Attacking wise, the Strength based character can take PAM or GWM (I'm taking GWM and hopefully generating fairly consistent Bonus action attacks) vs. the Bladesinging character who requires Warcaster to function properly and 2 weapon fighting to get something decent out of the bonus action attack; again this favors the Strength based character. If the Bladesinging character could pick up a shield this would help in my view, but they can't.
I do agree at higher levels with more bladesongs with more benefits and higher stats, the Dex based character is better, but by then I might be wondering why I played a Bladesinger at all as most other full Wizards will be better at casting spells.
So I'm going to play a character that gets nothing out of his subclasses until F1/BS6, but at that point will have the best multi-attack in the game, plate armor, and GWM. Should be fun; a bladesinger who doesn't bladesing. Perhaps I'll just yell at my foes while I chop them up.

[Segev]

It's funny, I had started working on that exact comparison. Even with the twins stuff. Then I added a STR-based EK for additional comparison.

I used High Elves with standard array, btw. Stats for the High Elf twins were STR 8 DEX 16 CON 13 WIS 12 INT 16 CHA 10.

Given my chops in 5e are not quite where they are in 3.PF, I will defer to your build on it and look forward to the comparison.

[Dravda]

I'm currently playing a dex-based eldritch knight wielding a rapier and shield. We started at 1st level and have recently reached 10th, so I have recent play experience. I would say I've been very successful in my role as a "dive tank." With 20 dexterity and a shield, my AC isn't far off if I'd gone with heavy armor, and I picked up Stealth with my background. All this, combined with spells like Expeditious Retreat and Misty Step, mean that I can always be where I need to be, when I need to be, putting my defenses between my team and the enemy. With the Shield spell, I haven't been hit once when I didn't allow it...outside of being subjected to the odd crit.

The eldritch knight excels at defense, and that's how I built my character. Having a few tricks like booming blade, lightning lure, and hold person (particularly now that I just got Eldritch Strike) up my sleeve help to control the battlefield and give me a few options, but my offense is fairly weak and is mostly centered around the 1-round "nova" that is Action Surge.

Evocation, as mentioned, is essentially worthless on an eldritch knight. I took burning hands but cast it MAYBE once in the entire campaign: it simply can't justify its existence next to shield. Additionally, 5e's spell list is horribly lacking if you aren't homebrewing your own expanded spell lists: I ended up taking shatter as a spell known not because it's good, but because there are so few options that it was the best of an extremely-limited bunch. The existence of evocation alongside abjuration implies that the eldritch knight should use magic for both offense and defense, but your evocation spells simply aren't viable.

That said, not every class needs to be good at everything. My character has been quite effective at what I built her to do: control space and make room for my allies to deal the real damage. It would be nice if the eldritch knight had better offense, but as the class stands right now, I've found it fun, flavorful, and effective.

Houserule suggestion: The Eldritch Knight player chooses any two spell schools, instead of being limited to Abj/Evo.

This opens up the Transmutation EK who uses Alter Self and Polymorph, or the Illusionist EK who uses Blur and Mirror Image, or the Necromancer EK who uses Blindness, Bestow Curse, and Contagion.

I LOVE this idea!

[Schwann145]

Bladesingers aren't actually very good at melee though. They're just Wizards with a touch of melee. Kinda like blade locks are a Warlocks with a touch of melee. If you're expecting them to be a true GISH you're going to run into problems.

OTOH it's fair to say EKs are fighters with a touch of magic, and if you're expecting them to be true GISH you're going to run into problems..

The only thing it takes to be a "true GISH" is the ability to blend attacking and casting. As such, Bladesingers, EKs, Paladins, and Rangers are all GISH by virtue of abilities such as War Magic or a meaningful list of Bonus Action/Reaction speed spell options. (Warlocks can *squeak* by with Hex, but mostly they attack -or- cast, not blending them so much, so I'd hesitate to call them a true GISH.)

As for Bladesingers not being very good at melee, that's ridiculous. They're great at melee.
1st level access to Expeditious Retreat makes you one of the best skirmishers in the early game, and upgrading to Haste at 5th level cements it. EKs, by comparison, are 2-3 levels behind on both choices, and both spells are outside of their designated schools of Abj/Evo, so choosing one or both is much less a given.
Extra attack gives them the other half of what's needed to be good melee, and their extra attack is better than most since it allows for a melee cantrip in place of a standard attack.
When you add in what Bladesong itself offers you're less likely to get hit (wearing [maybe magical?] armor with Unarmed Defense = tha best) and less likely to have your skirmish stopped (extra move + adv on acrobatics to avoid/escape grapples). Get high enough level and even your melee gets to continue climbing with Song of Victory ([d8+10]*2 + 3d8[+4d8 if they move] = pretty decent DPR for only using a Rapier, eh?)
And then, when Bladesong runs out (which it definitely will since the nerf to LR recharge only), you're still decent at melee, and you're also still a full-classed Wizard with all the power/options that entails.

What Bladesinger is bad at, and shouldn't do, is try and tank. However, with Con being a tertiary stat for both, I'd say an EK should avoid it also.

[MrStabby]

Is dex-based melee significantly weaker than str-based melee? Not asking for any point-proving purpose (at least not directly) but in attempting to set up a mental comparison scenario of twins, one of whom goes Bladesinger and one of whom goes Eldritch Knight. If I can set both to using Dex without cheating the EK, that makes things easier to keep thematic, but I don't want to let theme overcome scientific rigor for a comparison study.

The dex eldritch knight has grown on me a bit. Its value vs the strength one is now something I think is pretty close.

So in terms of defense, you are not much worse in AC (a bit maybe, depending on what str does) but dex is a better save to be good at than strength I think.

You get a boost to initiative - having 4 turns per combat instead of three is a 33% increase in damage.

In terms of stats/feats etc. it gets a bit complex. Dex lets you shoot a bow well for great flexability, which can make dump in Int a bit less painful (should they chose). Strength builds are generally worse than dex builds without feat support from shield master, pole arm master or great weapon master feats. This commitment effectively gives the dex fighter an extra ASI.

The extra ASI was something I valued less before but with Tasha's we have new cool feats to spend it on and potentially some of the racial feats opened up. With great options like fey-touched that extra feat is worth a LOT.

So yes, I think it fair to build a dex EK for comparison with a BS, in fact possibly more fair if you go down this path as you will be looking at similar initiative rolls, similar frequency of prefered weapons on treasure tables, similar value to access to spells like misty step. One thing the EK has over the BS here is proficiency in CON saves, which should not be underestimated in your comparison.

[J-H]

One thing in favor of the STR EK is that it's more likely to be good with Athletics checks, which include grapples and Disarm checks. With 2, 3, and eventually 4 attacks per round, the EK can afford to spend one or two of them trying to knock weapons out of a dangerous humanoid enemy's hands.

[Witty Username]

The duskblade could also channel spells through their blade, dropping an inflict wounds or similar into a sword strike, not unlike a 5e paladin's smites.

And that, I think, highlights the biggest issue -- I think what a lot of people want out of a gish class is roughly akin to a 1:2 caster like paladin/ranger/artificer (in particular like the paladin, albeit with a different spell list).

I think for me it is more the anchoring that EK is supposed to be blaster fighter. The arcane trickster has a similar anchoring in enchantment/illusion but they carry it better because those schools go pretty well with rogue, and may be a little more powerful or have less of a scaling problem. This may be because I am relatively happy with the gish options that we have, and EK is not weak it just has weird marketing. Maybe if you picked two schools instead of requiring abjuration/evocation, or just could pick from the full wizard list. That way it wouldn't have the the light artillery theme so it not being very good at that wouldn't irk me.
I actually like eldritch strike with EK, war magic less so because of the set order problem. (Anecdote: I have asked for a DM to house rule an ability two-three times; one of them was if I could attack first with the bonus action with an EK's war magic, I was thinking up a gunslinger and wanted to flavor my spells as empowered bullets).

[J.C.]

I think Strength-based, Platemail-wearing, Low Int Bladesinger is just simply better than EK. Please prove me wrong on this.

[Tanarii]

I think Strength-based, Platemail-wearing, Low Int Bladesinger is just simply better than EK. Please prove me wrong on this.

Can't cast spells because you're not proficient in plate. Done.