How do you feel about the Eldritch Knight?

[J.C.]

Can't cast spells because you're not proficient in plate. Done.

Its just a few levels but eventually I get to plate proficiency.

[Lunatism]

Its just a few levels but eventually I get to plate proficiency.

No blade song
Weak cantrip
Weak song of victory
Why bother then?

[J.C.]

No blade song
Weak cantrip
Weak song of victory
Why bother then?

Everything pays off Tier-4.

[Tanarii]

Why bother then?

That s my reaction when someone dunps Int on an EK too.

[Lunatism]

Everything pays off Tier-4.

Seems unconvincing
Elaborate please

[J.C.]

Seems unconvincing
Elaborate please

In the levels you would normally associate as Levels 17 - 20th. Capische?

[Lunatism]

In the levels you would normally associate as Levels 17 - 20th. Capische?

9th level spell don't cover the weakness of low int, heavy armor bladesinger. You may refer to the reasons i stated above.

[J.C.]

9th level spell don't cover the weakness of low int, heavy armor bladesinger. You may refer to the reasons i stated above.

My W/L record states otherwise.

[Lunatism]

My W/L record states otherwise.

Would you kindly disclose the actual numbers? That helps convincing people, which you are not currently.

That s my reaction when someone dunps Int on an EK too.

low int EK can be a viable build as the most commonly used spells (shield and absorb element) don't need int to be effective.

But I do not like that build very much though for greatly limiting spell choices.

[diplomancer]

If you are talking about W/L, specially when you state 'from tier 4", you are not talking about D&D, but some other game that uses some of D&D's rules.

[J.C.]

If you are talking about W/L, specially when you state 'from tier 4", you are not talking about D&D, but some other game that uses some of D&D's rules.

No. This is legal D&D.

[Lunatism]

No. This is legal D&D.

I would sincerely remind that you are making the thread derails, can we talk about EK again? Not W/L or PvP.

[J.C.]

I would sincerely remind that you are making the thread derails, can we talk about EK again? Not W/L or PvP.

Sure. Let us talk about how high str plate wearing bladesingers outperform eldritch knights.

[Kane0]

I think Strength-based, Platemail-wearing, Low Int Bladesinger is just simply better than EK. Please prove me wrong on this.

By going STR over both DEX and INT You’re giving up most if not all all benefits of being a bladesinger:
- Song doesnt work in medium or heavy armor
- Song adds INT to AC
- Extra Attack Cantrips use INT to hit (unless you’re GFB/BB), as do all your spell attacks and DC
- Song of Victory adds INT to weapon damage
- INT determines how many spells you have prepared

EK on the other hand loses very little from dropping INT, as it isnt required for much more than spell attack/DC which as noted is not the EKs strong suit despite it’s evocation school access. Honestly if you want to play a low Int Wizard there are better alternatives like Necromancer, Conjurer or Transmuter

[Lunatism]

Sure. Let us talk about how high str plate wearing bladesingers outperform eldritch knights.

You are welcomed, do you think of any convincing standpoints yet? I didn't receive any yet.

and how you compensate the loss of bladesong?

[J.C.]

By going STR over both DEX and INT You’re giving up most if not all all benefits of being a bladesinger:
- Song doesnt work in medium or heavy armor
- Song adds INT to AC
- Extra Attack Cantrips use INT to hit (unless you’re GFB/BB), as do all your spell attacks and DC
- Song of Victory adds INT to weapon damage
- INT determines how many spells you have prepared

EK on the other hand loses very little from dropping INT, as it isnt required for much more than spell attack/DC which as noted is not the EKs strong suit despite it’s evocation school access. Honestly if you want to play a low Int Wizard there are better alternatives like Necromancer, Conjurer or Transmuter

17th+ Level Bladesinger always outperforms 17th+ Level Ek, correct?

[Lunatism]

17th+ Level Bladesinger always outperforms 17th+ Level Ek, correct?

Are you talking about weapon attack output? Surely not then as 2 attacks can't beat 4.

[Arkhios]

I'd recommend re-reading Bladesong (for your convenience, full quote below).

If you wear armor heavier than light or use a shield, you get none of the benefits of Bladesong.

Starting at 2nd level, you can invoke a secret elven magic called the Bladesong, provided you aren't wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield. It graces you with supernatural speed, agility, and focus.

You can use a bonus action to start the Bladesong, which lasts for 1 minute. It ends early if you are incapacitated, if you don medium or heavy armor or a shield, or if you use two hands to make an attack with a weapon. You can also dismiss Bladesong at any time you choose (no action required).

While your bladesong is active, you gain the following benefits:

• You gain a bonus to your AC equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of +1).
• Your walking speed increases by 10 feet.
• You have advantage on Dexterity (Acrobatics) checks.
• You gain a bonus to any Constitution saving throws you make to maintain concentration on a spell. The bonus equals your Intelligence modifier (minimum of +1).

You can use this feature a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses of it when you finish a long rest.

Emphasis mine

Are you still sure that Bladesinger in heavy armor outperforms an Eldritch Knight?

[Kane0]

17th+ Level Bladesinger always outperforms 17th+ Level Ek, correct?

So how did you get to level 17?

[J.C.]

So how did you get to level 17?

{Scrubbed}

[Lunatism]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

{Scrubbed}

Also, any defense for the inferior attack performance of plate armor bladesinger?

[Valmark]

I mean... An high level BS in heavy armor will outperform an EK in casting... And that's it. Assuming you've spent two ASIs to get the armor. But that's just because the former is a wizard, there is nothing the subclass really does.

Funnily enough, EKs who are more fight-y get more features to support casting then a BS does.

Speaking of supporting casting, how good Eldritch Smite is really on the Eldritch Knight chassis? I can't help but feel like while good it's kinda 'wasted' on a class that uses mostly Abjuration spells without DCs (since the Evocation ones fall behind in damage rapidly).

[Lunatism]

I mean... An high level BS in heavy armor will outperform an EK in casting... And that's it. Assuming you've spent two ASIs to get the armor. But that's just because the former is a wizard, there is nothing the subclass really does.

Funnily enough, EKs who are more fight-y get more features to support casting then a BS does.

I think the limited schools of spell and insufficient spell slots justify all the casting-support features EK gets.

Speaking of supporting casting, how good Eldritch Smite is really on the Eldritch Knight chassis? I can't help but feel like while good it's kinda 'wasted' on a class that uses mostly Abjuration spells without DCs (since the Evocation ones fall behind in damage rapidly).

The burst damage might be too high for a fighter who can strike 4 times a turn. As you knock a target phrone with smite amd gain advantage in all following attacks.

But as a gish aubclass, I do like to have a feature similar to eldritch smite.

[Valmark]

I think the limited schools of spell and insufficient spell slots justify all the casting-support features EK gets.



The burst damage might be too high for a fighter who can strike 4 times a turn. As you knock a target phrone with smite amd gain advantage in all following attacks.

But as a gish aubclass, I do like to have a feature similar to eldritch smite.

I'm an idiot and meant Eldritch Strike, not Smite, sorry xD

Eh, I'm not sure. Like others have said, they get features that support casting that they don't really make good use of (extensively, at least).

[Lunatism]

I'm an idiot and meant Eldritch Strike, not Smite, sorry xD

Eh, I'm not sure. Like others have said, they get features that support casting that they don't really make good use of (extensively, at least).

I think eldritch strike help medium int EK to land crowd control spells, like Hold Person and Banishment, despite their not so high spell DC.

Max int EK would find it useful too.

[Eldariel]

I think eldritch strike help medium int EK to land crowd control spells, like Hold Person and Banishment, despite their not so high spell DC.

Max int EK would find it useful too.

It's decent if you have some good save-or-X spells and can get to AOE people, but EK doesn't really get amazing ones.

[Lunatism]

It's decent if you have some good save-or-X spells and can get to AOE people, but EK doesn't really get amazing ones.

Talking about AOE part...

Spreading out your attacks to apply Eldritch Strike to cast Fireball with disadvantage saving throw at level 13 or later?

Don't think it is a good way to boost AOE damage.

[Eldariel]

Talking about AOE part...

Spreading out your attacks to apply Eldritch Strike to cast Fireball with disadvantage saving throw at level 13 or later?

Don't think it is a good way to boost AOE damage.

Your best bet is like Web or Hypnotic Pattern or some such. As you get spells so late, your damage spells will be helplessly behind.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I think Strength-based, Platemail-wearing, Low Int Bladesinger is just simply better than EK. Please prove me wrong on this.

First I think this is pertinent to the conversation as I've personally just decided to opt for strength Bladesinger with a Fighter dip over EK. I wouldn't suggest low Int for either character. Secondary or Tertiary stat would be best.

So if we are comparing Bladesinger/ Fighter 1-3 vs EK in late tier 2, early tier 3

The BS/ Fighter gets
1) way better (powerful and versatile) spellcasting. This includes better spells to support combat.
2) better muticlass attack until the EK hits level 11 and then they are arguably similar in impact (3 attacks vs 1 + Blade Cantrip)

The EK gets
1) more HP
2) more ASIs/ feats

My conclusion is that for late tier 2 and early tier 3 it's not even close. The STRadesinger is better. It is more interesting and has way more options to support both combat and other areas of the game.
However by late tier 3 and certainly tier 4 the EK is one of the best fighters while the STRadesinger isn't a strong spellcaster or melee combatant.

[Segev]

Sure. Let us talk about how high str plate wearing bladesingers outperform eldritch knights.

I recommend, when you make such proposals, you immediately, in the same post, follow up by actually adding content related to convincing your readers of your view in this discussion. Lay out your case. Or at least bring up interesting points. Asking others to discuss a topic which you've merely named isn't very constructive.