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  1. - Top - End - #61
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: What race would you add to Core this edition or the next?

    Quote Originally Posted by da newt View Post
    I've often wondered why there are halfelves and halforcs but not halfdwarfs and halfelf-halforcs etc ...
    Because they're not in Tolkien.

    Though I will say there is technically half-dwarves. A Mul in 4e was a half-dwarf. They were not popular.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: What race would you add to Core this edition or the next?

    Thanks to Disney, I've always liked the idea of a stone by day, warrior by night -type gargoyle.

    But Dark Elves' weakness is bad enough, so even something like Slowed by day would make it infeasible.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: What race would you add to Core this edition or the next?

    Kobolds, Pixies, elemental Fey (Nereids, Slyphs, Brownies) for smaller guys.

    Ogres, (Mino-)Taurs, Orcs for larger ones.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: What race would you add to Core this edition or the next?

    Quote Originally Posted by HPisBS View Post
    Thanks to Disney, I've always liked the idea of a stone by day, warrior by night -type gargoyle.

    But Dark Elves' weakness is bad enough, so even something like Slowed by day would make it infeasible.
    Feels like something you’d design a whole TTRPG system around. Wonky limits are fine if everyone (the PCs) all have to abide by them.
    By the metric of being wholly dependent on the GM for noncombat interaction Fighter is an NPC class.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: What race would you add to Core this edition or the next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xervous View Post
    Feels like something you’d design a whole TTRPG system around. Wonky limits are fine if everyone (the PCs) all have to abide by them.
    You wouldn't need the system designed around it. The campaign would have to be though.

    Edit: In the end I think WoTC set the core races around 2 things. 1. Doesn't have racial abilities that are too far out there to distinguish them from the other playable races. 2. Can walk into your average human town without either people immediately panicking or lynching them.
    Last edited by Sigreid; 2021-01-26 at 09:27 AM.
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    Default What race would you add to Core this edition or the next?

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    Just go old school and say kobolds are dog people; they even have pack tactics ;)
    That would be great, but I think the momentum on the dragon connection is gonna be tough to divert.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ettina View Post
    Which means that I also want to remove half-elf and half-orc as distinct PHB races
    That would not harm the game at all, though it would cut down on the number of bards by a lot (half elves being gone).
    Quote Originally Posted by Warder View Post
    I wouldn't add races to Core for a new edition, I'd remove races. Tieflings, Drow and Dragonborn would be the ones I'd axe, and then add them in a supplement later on.
    NJot a bad idea, but make sure to add aasimar when you add Tiefling.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sigreid View Post
    In the end I think WoTC set the core races around 2 things. 1. Doesn't have racial abilities that are too far out there to distinguish them from the other playable races. 2. Can walk into your average human town without either people immediately panicking or lynching them.
    Actually, point 2 is campaign dependent.
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  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: What race would you add to Core this edition or the next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigreid View Post
    You wouldn't need the system designed around it. The campaign would have to be though.

    Edit: In the end I think WoTC set the core races around 2 things. 1. Doesn't have racial abilities that are too far out there to distinguish them from the other playable races. 2. Can walk into your average human town without either people immediately panicking or lynching them.
    Yes, you can design a specific campaign to accommodate harsh drawbacks as a specific case. Races pitched as general use in the PHB don’t seem like they should assume a specific type of campaign as D&D is wedded to no setting save the kitchen sink.
    By the metric of being wholly dependent on the GM for noncombat interaction Fighter is an NPC class.

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    Default Re: What race would you add to Core this edition or the next?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    NJot a bad idea, but make sure to add aasimar when you add Tiefling.
    Yeah, definitely. My thoughts for the supplement would be one that focused on player characters with rare races, class options or backgrounds, and how to implement them into your game. The crunch, of course, but also how to roleplay them, advice for DMs on how to handle them (both as a full party of rare choices and as one stand-out character in party), etc. Different approaches to what happens when drow need to get into a human city, how to handle aasimar divine guides / warlock patrons, things like that.

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: What race would you add to Core this edition or the next?

    I'd love to replace half-orcs with goliaths. As much as I love warforged, I suspect they're a little too niche for core, though I got my gm in a 13th age game to let my "fallen god possessing a statue from his last surviving temple" use warforged stats.

    I'd *personally* like race/species construction for a future edition to be divided into physiological and cultural segments, for flexibility and to make it clear that no seriously they're separate species. Half-elves can go, too, maybe bring them back later.
    Last edited by Telwar; 2021-01-26 at 12:33 PM.

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    Default Re: What race would you add to Core this edition or the next?

    I don't really care about what races are core - what I do want is a solid, easy-to-follow system in the DMG for creating your own balanced races. And no, "look at the races we made and eyeball them!" doesn't count.
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    Default Re: What race would you add to Core this edition or the next?

    I mean, 6e is probably going to have less specific types of races and more lineage-based stuff, from the looks of things. That isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but I’d expect “fey-lineage” before “drow elf.”
    I usually post from my phone, so please excuse any horrendous typos.

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  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: What race would you add to Core this edition or the next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigreid View Post
    In the end I think WoTC set the core races around 2 things. 1. Doesn't have racial abilities that are too far out there to distinguish them from the other playable races. 2. Can walk into your average human town without either people immediately panicking or lynching them.
    Heh, that sounds like WotC alright. However those 2 things (more on the former, but both) are ones I want overturned in core (In the monster manual / DMG rather than necessarily the PHB, but still in core).
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2021-01-26 at 01:45 PM.

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    Default Re: What race would you add to Core this edition or the next?

    Quote Originally Posted by rlc View Post
    I mean, 6e is probably going to have less specific types of races and more lineage-based stuff, from the looks of things. That isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but I’d expect “fey-lineage” before “drow elf.”
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    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2021-01-26 at 05:32 PM.
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    Default Re: What race would you add to Core this edition or the next?

    I think the most likely ones would be orcs, goliaths. goblins, or another goblinoid or orc-like race. given goblinoids and orc-like races are predy much a given in the first expansion of most editions.

    I would personally like to see more plane touch races in core. aasimar would likely be the pick if this did happen or genasi but I would prefer one of the more esoteric plane touch races. Mechanatrixes or the modron one are my personal pick but in general, I think plane touched should be explored more. we have 6 ish generic plane touch and a bunch of specific ones as well as the dragon planer disease things witch is very similar. personally, I think 6e will use the lineage system, and will likely lead to a large number of base lineages I think we will see more of a 15-25 ish base lineages, most probably being subraces and such but I think we will see 2-5 new base lineages. -
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  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: What race would you add to Core this edition or the next?

    Sorry, don't have time to read through everyone's posts right now. So some of these might be redundant.

    Established races I'd like to see become core:
    • elan
    • hengeyokai
    • kobold
    • lizardfolk
    • minotaur
    • necropolitan
    • vril
    • warforged

    Core races I'd like to see removed from core:
    • dragonborn
    • halfling

    New races I'd like to see added, and if it's in core, so much the better:
    • some type of fairy
    • something that can transform its lower body between legs and a fish tail
    • vampire-like undead, but less screwed by sunlight

    Races I'd like to see changed:
    • aasima/tieflings with wings
    • tieflings that look more like the illustraion for incubus/sucubus and not hideous red things

  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: What race would you add to Core this edition or the next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    Sorry, don't have time to read through everyone's posts right now. So some of these might be redundant.

    Established races I'd like to see become core:
    • elan
    • hengeyokai
    • kobold
    • lizardfolk
    • minotaur
    • necropolitan
    • vril
    • warforged

    Core races I'd like to see removed from core:
    • dragonborn
    • halfling

    New races I'd like to see added, and if it's in core, so much the better:
    • some type of fairy
    • something that can transform its lower body between legs and a fish tail
    • vampire-like undead, but less screwed by sunlight

    Races I'd like to see changed:
    • aasima/tieflings with wings
    • tieflings that look more like the illustraion for incubus/sucubus and not hideous red things
    I know by the very words of your post you disagree, but I'd argue modern tieflings are absolutely supposed to evoke incubi/succubi in their design. That +2 Charisma (literally the opposite of 3e) is being applied directly to their physical form in all the artwork.

    Personally, I'd like them to look at little less obviously demonic. At least some of them, because right now the obvious Hellboy thing makes it weird there are so many of them running around, if it's intended by the designers to frighten peasants
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  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Default Re: What race would you add to Core this edition or the next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    I know by the very words of your post you disagree, but I'd argue modern tieflings are absolutely supposed to evoke incubi/succubi in their design. That +2 Charisma (literally the opposite of 3e) is being applied directly to their physical form in all the artwork.

    Personally, I'd like them to look at little less obviously demonic. At least some of them, because right now the obvious Hellboy thing makes it weird there are so many of them running around, if it's intended by the designers to frighten peasants
    they're red skin and horns. any less demonic and they're just a human. I think you'll have just to accept your not the target audience. furthermore, they don't frighten peasants, the sidebar the corebook uses is "distrust". different connotations. people can work with others they distrust, they just won't be showing themselves as vulnerable around them.
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    Default Re: What race would you add to Core this edition or the next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    they're red skin and horns. any less demonic and they're just a human. I think you'll have just to accept your not the target audience. furthermore, they don't frighten peasants, the sidebar the corebook uses is "distrust". different connotations. people can work with others they distrust, they just won't be showing themselves as vulnerable around them.
    3e tieflings, at least in the MM, usually just had one fiendish trait, still obvious but much less "you're playing a demon" and much closer to "you're playing half (or quarter, eighth etc.) demon spawn". It's an important distinction that I'd like to come back at least a little. I'm not saying they all have to be like that, I like the more devilish look as an option, but I just feel like they're really same-y right now. Plus, I feel like the designs in 4e, which the 5e look is based on, were so obviously fiendish for a reason. Weren't they descendants of a demon worshipping empire in Nentir Vale? Makes a lot more sense to be more demonic since their ancestors probably were too. But 5e tieflings often don't follow that example. Also, I wish fewer tieflings had tails
    Last edited by Luccan; 2021-01-27 at 01:57 AM.
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  19. - Top - End - #79
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    Default Re: What race would you add to Core this edition or the next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    3e tieflings, at least in the MM, usually just had one fiendish trait, still obvious but much less "you're playing a demon" and much closer to "you're playing half (or quarter, eighth etc.) demon spawn". It's an important distinction that I'd like to come back at least a little. I'm not saying they all have to be like that, I like the more devilish look as an option, but I just feel like they're really same-y right now. Plus, I feel like the designs in 4e, which the 5e look is based on, were so obviously fiendish for a reason. Weren't they descendants of a demon worshipping empire in Nentir Vale? Makes a lot more sense to be more demonic since their ancestors probably were too. But 5e tieflings often don't follow that example. Also, I wish fewer tieflings had tails
    Again, your not target audience. the entire point of why I like tieflings is that they're obviously fiendish, most other races in the corebook are all either humdrum watered down fair folk whose cultures all boil down to some variation of "we happily dwell in some isolated place being nebulously magical and let humans become the dominant species through pure numbers", half orcs (who should really just be orcs by now) or dragonborn.
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  20. - Top - End - #80
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    Default Re: What race would you add to Core this edition or the next?

    The PHB only has three distinct races: Dragonborn, Tiefling, and seven shades of human. I'd prioritize either adding races that aren't human, or rewriting some of the various humans so they're no longer humans.

    Tabaxi are the natural addition. They're nicely distinct from the other three, and mechanically interesting due to Feline Agility. Changelings and Warforged are also distinctive but place specific demands on the setting.

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    Default Re: What race would you add to Core this edition or the next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Again, your not target audience. the entire point of why I like tieflings is that they're obviously fiendish, most other races in the corebook are all either humdrum watered down fair folk whose cultures all boil down to some variation of "we happily dwell in some isolated place being nebulously magical and let humans become the dominant species through pure numbers", half orcs (who should really just be orcs by now) or dragonborn.
    The problem here is that if I want to play something that's obviously fiendish, I want the features to also represent that, more than mere appearance. Yeah, ok, Tieflings get fire resistance and some flamey SLA's, but those horns? Nah, no gore attack for you. Tail? Does nothing. Imposing presence from looking like literal hell-spawn? Nope, not even proficiency in Intimidation. The contents don't match the cover. A more subtle looking Tielfling, like the one presented in 3e, is more fitting to the more subtle racial features presented by their stats. They're also so much more interesting, in my opinion. Compare:

    "I'm sooo edgy and cool with my red skin, horns and tail and I'm sooo persecuted because of my appearance that I can't easily conceal"
    to
    "I can conceal my dark heritage and infiltrate society, wary and fearful of the consequence of failing to do so OR I can capitalise on my subtly fiendish appearance to cow and intimidate those I meet OR I can look like the literal hell-spawn my daddy is and be the teenage edgelord that is apparently the so-called target audience these days"

    One of these is a tiresome meme and the other has much more variety, giving the race a much broader applicability in both character design and a wider range of settings. I know which I prefer, but then I'm probably not the target audience either, right?
    I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.

    Please be aware; when it comes to 5ed D&D, I own Core (1st printing) and SCAG only. All my opinions and rulings are based solely on those, unless otherwise stated. I reserve the right of ignorance of errata or any other source.

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    Default Re: What race would you add to Core this edition or the next?

    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPooga View Post
    The problem here is that if I want to play something that's obviously fiendish, I want the features to also represent that, more than mere appearance. Yeah, ok, Tieflings get fire resistance and some flamey SLA's, but those horns? Nah, no gore attack for you. Tail? Does nothing. Imposing presence from looking like literal hell-spawn? Nope, not even proficiency in Intimidation. The contents don't match the cover. A more subtle looking Tielfling, like the one presented in 3e, is more fitting to the more subtle racial features presented by their stats. They're also so much more interesting, in my opinion. Compare:

    "I'm sooo edgy and cool with my red skin, horns and tail and I'm sooo persecuted because of my appearance that I can't easily conceal"
    to
    "I can conceal my dark heritage and infiltrate society, wary and fearful of the consequence of failing to do so OR I can capitalise on my subtly fiendish appearance to cow and intimidate those I meet OR I can look like the literal hell-spawn my daddy is and be the teenage edgelord that is apparently the so-called target audience these days"

    One of these is a tiresome meme and the other has much more variety, giving the race a much broader applicability in both character design and a wider range of settings. I know which I prefer, but then I'm probably not the target audience either, right?
    I agree completely - tieflings being planetouched members of other species is far more interesting to me and is better story material than them being a uniform species of their own. But we should be careful with our opinions, since we're not the target audience.

  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Default Re: What race would you add to Core this edition or the next?

    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPooga View Post
    The problem here is that if I want to play something that's obviously fiendish, I want the features to also represent that, more than mere appearance. Yeah, ok, Tieflings get fire resistance and some flamey SLA's, but those horns? Nah, no gore attack for you. Tail? Does nothing. Imposing presence from looking like literal hell-spawn? Nope, not even proficiency in Intimidation. The contents don't match the cover. A more subtle looking Tielfling, like the one presented in 3e, is more fitting to the more subtle racial features presented by their stats. They're also so much more interesting, in my opinion. Compare:

    "I'm sooo edgy and cool with my red skin, horns and tail and I'm sooo persecuted because of my appearance that I can't easily conceal"
    to
    "I can conceal my dark heritage and infiltrate society, wary and fearful of the consequence of failing to do so OR I can capitalise on my subtly fiendish appearance to cow and intimidate those I meet OR I can look like the literal hell-spawn my daddy is and be the teenage edgelord that is apparently the so-called target audience these days"

    One of these is a tiresome meme and the other has much more variety, giving the race a much broader applicability in both character design and a wider range of settings. I know which I prefer, but then I'm probably not the target audience either, right?
    I don't think you should compare 3.5's tieflings to 5e's ones... 3.5 ones were actively worse at intimidating people then other races. That second and third category you mentioned apply more to this edition's tiefling.

    Honestly 5e's ones play actually better to the first too. You can have easy to hide horns and/or cut them, the tail and eyes can be hidden but 3.5 ones by default either smelled bad or had a "disturbing demeanor" plus another characteristic. That's harder then just wearing a long coat and a hood to hide.

    Of course, if a tiefling player makes some horns as long as an arm shoot straight towards the sky (as an example) they'll have an hard time hiding them, but nobody forced them to.
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    Default Re: What race would you add to Core this edition or the next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    I don't think you should compare 3.5's tieflings to 5e's ones... 3.5 ones were actively worse at intimidating people then other races. That second and third category you mentioned apply more to this edition's tiefling.

    Honestly 5e's ones play actually better to the first too. You can have easy to hide horns and/or cut them, the tail and eyes can be hidden but 3.5 ones by default either smelled bad or had a "disturbing demeanor" plus another characteristic. That's harder then just wearing a long coat and a hood to hide.

    Of course, if a tiefling player makes some horns as long as an arm shoot straight towards the sky (as an example) they'll have an hard time hiding them, but nobody forced them to.
    I should clarify that I was comparing 3e appearance only, which could be as subtle or obvious as you desired compared to 5e where you must have (I quote) large horns and a 4-5ft tail that no-one is hiding...like, ever, not to mention the mandatory pupiless eyes, pointy teeth and potentially red skin (which is the only optional feature here).

    I was never much of a fan of 3e Tiefling from a stats perspective; again, their stats didn't match their description, particularly with regard to their Charisma penalty vs. their position as deceivers and infiltrators. 3e still had some confusion over Charisma, appearance and reputation/opinion/social acceptance and the Tiefling is an example of this confusion.
    I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.

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    Default Re: What race would you add to Core this edition or the next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    I know by the very words of your post you disagree, but I'd argue modern tieflings are absolutely supposed to evoke incubi/succubi in their design. That +2 Charisma (literally the opposite of 3e) is being applied directly to their physical form in all the artwork.

    Personally, I'd like them to look at little less obviously demonic. At least some of them, because right now the obvious Hellboy thing makes it weird there are so many of them running around, if it's intended by the designers to frighten peasants
    Honestly I’d want them to be more demonic.

    The demon that spawned them may be charming and beautiful, but a demon’s works always turn out foul.

    Hell the fluff of the race is how they are naturally mistrusted and reviled wherever they go, leading them down the path of evil even if they are not naturally inclined to go that direction. In a world of Dragonborn and orcs, generically attractive with an odd coloration and some horns does not cut it.

    Give me absolutely vile. A form twisted and grotesque. Grandiose maybe, with the power of demons behind it. But definitely looking less like a dancer you’d see at Jabba’s palace and more like Jabba himself. Something that should disgust so we can see why everyone finds dealing with them so unsettling.

    Of course as they are Tieflings allow players to have generically tragic backstories and still be beautiful. Which seems to be popular for folks. So, the chance of going all in on a race for the disgusting is slim to 0.
    Last edited by Dienekes; 2021-01-27 at 07:48 AM.

  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Default Re: What race would you add to Core this edition or the next?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    Heh, that sounds like WotC alright. However those 2 things (more on the former, but both) are ones I want overturned in core (In the monster manual / DMG rather than necessarily the PHB, but still in core).
    Got to remember that the PHB is, and always has been intended to be the basic setup to let noobs get started with minimal frustration. A head start.
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  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Default Re: What race would you add to Core this edition or the next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigreid View Post
    Got to remember that the PHB is, and always has been intended to be the basic setup to let noobs get started with minimal frustration. A head start.
    Yes. Exactly. A head start. Wouldn't it be a good idea for the DMG/MM to have a head start for interesting races? Even if the interesting races get put in the PHB, there would still be plenty of Humans in the PHB.
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2021-01-27 at 08:34 AM.

  28. - Top - End - #88
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    Default Re: What race would you add to Core this edition or the next?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    Yes. Exactly. A head start. Wouldn't it be a good idea for the DMG/MM to have a head start for interesting races? Even if the interesting races get put in the PHB, there would still be plenty of Humans in the PHB.
    Eh, part of the training wheels is kind of a default setting. the DMG is a good place for for a few weirder races and guidelines for creating more. MM is a good place for a discussion on templates.
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  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Default Re: What race would you add to Core this edition or the next?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    Yes. Exactly. A head start. Wouldn't it be a good idea for the DMG/MM to have a head start for interesting races?
    Why bother? - WotC will churn out another 50 races after the fact, and even then players will only stick to whatever custom stat drops best suit their class mechanics.

  30. - Top - End - #90
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    Default Re: What race would you add to Core this edition or the next?

    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPooga View Post
    One of these is a tiresome meme and the other has much more variety, giving the race a much broader applicability in both character design and a wider range of settings. I know which I prefer, but then I'm probably not the target audience either, right?
    Nope! Definitely not target audience. Memes sell. While your modifications aren't even a mechanical change, they're fluff. thats so minor thats "if the Gm wants their tieflings to be more subtle, they're more than free to do so" territory. They're a company that needs to get out a strong memorable concept to....who knows how many people so that it sticks in their minds no matter who is viewing it. subtlety isn't exactly high priority when it comes to marketing, nor do you necessarily need people to like it, to remember it. from a marketing perspective 5e tieflings are strong visual design, aesthetically pleasing and drawing upon a common archetype that is both known by DnD players and the wider culture they're selling in to get across what they are going for, to tell you what they're about.

    your thinking from a flexibility perspective which is not a bad perspective, its just not one that works when trying to get across a concept to an audience of people on a large scale. memes work because they're simple, distinctive and striking in a way that sticks in your mind. one could argue that the entire point of advertising is to create memes so that those memes will make people by the product because the meme stuck in their mind.

    what you want? is not a meme. this means its higher quality, but high quality and marketability were never good friends. high quality stuff is all about "things are deeper and more complex than it first seems", while marketing is all about "things are EXACTLY as they seem and we are making it as simple as possible to get across what we're communicating so that you know exactly what this is about!"

    this of course means that the tiefling is simplified down to being a mini-devil. you don't want the tiefling to be mistaken for a satyr or a qunari by giving them normal skin in the art. you don't want people confused about what they're looking at. sure you can argue its unrealistic or undesirable in setting but the point of the art is to communicate things to YOU. now sure there is text next to the picture describing them but if someone don't have the flexibility to ignore a little thing like that and change the tieflings to be what they want for their game so that it works for them, they're in the wrong hobby. archetypes are there to be deviated from, not followed.
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