Results 31 to 60 of 198
Thread: My players don't use horses!
-
2021-01-22, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
- Location
- The summoning chamber
- Gender
Re: My players don't use horses!
From my personal experience on this subject it's generally conditioned behavior. Why bother with a horse/boat/whatever when your DM is just going to use it as a tool to punish your character. It's obvious, easy and EXTREMELY overused by DMs. This just leads to players who avoid those circumstances because in the past they were quite literally worse off because they used them.
There's usually a reason for those sort of behaviors, and it usually originates with the circumstances forced on the players because they chose to use a horse/boat/whatever.A man who dies fighting with his principles intact dies in glory. To expect enemies to follow the same code of honor defiles that honor, reducing it to a set of arbitrary rules.
-
2021-01-22, 02:35 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2016
- Location
- Earth
- Gender
Re: My players don't use horses!
Mounts (especially horses) are often temporary anyways. Unless low magic by level 5 or 7 the party is no longer travelling on the ground. How long til "*pop* we there!"? So I have never had a problem buying a mount knowing it was going to die. Never has though. No party I have been around had that issue.
It's like buying acid for a troll fight and then not using it.
-
2021-01-22, 02:42 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
- Location
- Sweden
- Gender
Re: My players don't use horses!
Black text is for sarcasm, also sincerity. You'll just have to read between the lines and infer from context like an animal
-
2021-01-22, 02:48 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2012
Re: My players don't use horses!
I don't think using horses to travel is a big danger, but water is extremely dangerous for most characters. The average character is not equipped to fight in water, and aquatic enemies are specialized in fighting in water. Water is a hazard that severely weakens or outright neutralizes a character. Is the character an archer? Not anymore; bows can't be used in water unless the characters have a special aquatic bow. It's similar for magic, and to a lesser extent even melee options. And, people either have to swim slowly or might even drown. Boat travel is already dangerous due to natural hazards before magical beasts and nasties get thrown into the mix.
-
2021-01-22, 02:52 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2010
Re: My players don't use horses!
That's kind of my point. What advantages there "should" be in reality are irrelevant. What matters is the actual, in-game benefit the players get.
Traveling faster is good. But it only matters if there's a (real) cost to being slower - the bad guy gets away, etc.
Being more rested is good. But it only matters if it gives some kind of penalty.
But, yeah, you're right. To some extent it's treating characters like emotionless tools, to some extent it's a matter of what constraints are putting on the GM, and to some extent it's what the system actually models.
But in any case the players respond to actual cost/benefit analysis, not what sad analysis would be like in the real world. So if players are doing things that don't make sense, the first thing to do is to look at the actual gaming environment they're in, and what the costs, benefits, and risks actually are in realistic terms."Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)"
-
2021-01-22, 03:11 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2007
- Location
- San Antonio, Texas
- Gender
Re: My players don't use horses!
Heh. I know Knights of the Dinner Table quite well. Yeah, this is a common trope in older games... you had to do something with your horses, and failure to do it well resulted in their murder. I finished an adaptation of an adventure recently where your horses will get eaten by wargs if you're not careful... and that REALLY sucks if you're being chased by the pseudo-vampires at the time.
The Cranky Gamer
*It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
*Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
*Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
*The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
There are almost 400,000 threads on this site. If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.
-
2021-01-22, 03:16 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2019
Re: My players don't use horses!
Now as a slight side track, isn't not riding horses or boats for out of game reasons a bit of metagaming?
-
2021-01-22, 03:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2011
- Gender
Re: My players don't use horses!
This keeps coming up every time people mention players being slow, and I don't think people really get it.
If you use negative motivations (do this my way or be punished) players will resent it. You need to use positive motivations.
Travelling faster isn't good, you have to make it good. And you have to actually do that not just make travelling slower bad. Having faster means of travel needs to be better than baseline without making the baseline worse than it currently is.
Pure penalty avoidance is not fun.
-
2021-01-22, 03:54 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
Re: My players don't use horses!
'I don't want to pay for or look after this thing that I am sure is going to die in the environment into which I am heading' is perfectly sound in-game logic. If the world in which a person exists is more lethal to a half-ton animal than it is to a seasoned adventurer (who somehow has a lot more hp), and you are about to go into danger, then you leave the animal behind. Likewise, if the DM always attacks ships, then ships are deathtraps and the PCs are just being judicious in their actions. If the DM only attacks ships when the PCs are on board, then yes, the DM is metagaming (and if you think that metagaming is unacceptable, this is a problem).
Last edited by Willie the Duck; 2021-01-23 at 03:49 PM.
-
2021-01-22, 04:00 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
- Location
- Utah
- Gender
Re: My players don't use horses!
I like that idea, but I know how it would actually be used. Players would become horse rustlers, with 13 hp meat shields when they ride into battle.
My players use horses, even though horses have actually been killed. Well, one horse, any way, and it happened because they tried to ride down a orc on the horse, and the orc killed the horse. No one seemed to have an issue with it. I'll find out if they really have an issue with it tomorrow, as we left the last session with them inside a tiny hut inside a building, while their horses are grazing right outside. A hill giant and ogres are after them and they know it. If the players try to turtle up for the night, the horses are going to be roasted on a spit.
The main characters haven't been on a boat yet, although they have played a one shot in the same world where they did. [I take that back - I forgot about the river boat journey. Two of the characters took a week and a half to slowly travel downriver on a luxury riverboat, while the bard paid for their passage by singing. They had to sell their horses at a loss before leaving. The other three took a cargo barge that got there in a week with their horses, but they had to pay for that privilege.] They had no problem getting on the boats. They did eventually have a water combat, but that's because they left the ship for a long boat, and the barbarian decided they would swim rather than ride in the boat. What was originally just going to be some fins circling around them for atmosphere became a shark attack. I don't think they will stop being on boats after this.
I have no idea if it is the players, or something specific to your game that is the difference here. I would bet it is just the players are different. I wouldn't worry too much about it, unless you have something planned that can only be reached by boat.Last edited by Darth Credence; 2021-01-22 at 04:15 PM. Reason: remembered a boat trip!
-
2021-01-22, 04:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2019
Re: My players don't use horses!
It seems that this degree of metagaming is 99.9% acceptable nowadays. How often have you seen prohibition on talking in terms of HP (even though it is actually suggested in 3.5) actually enforced?
I am under impression that policing metagame decisions was more common in the olden times, but nowadays it's usually reserved for the horror stories of the adversarial DMing (though I think it can be a valid style if less comfortable than current metagaming meta (ha!)). Now it's usually "please don't do that, guys" and guys (and gals) either agree not to do it or don't, no hard rules either way.
-
2021-01-22, 04:04 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2016
- Location
- Earth
- Gender
Re: My players don't use horses!
yep...
Horses were vary common. Only the poorest of serfs and peasants couldn't find a way to get a horse. Understand that these were not warhorses; some were not even meant to be ridden. They were the cars of their time; they are status symbols. a PC wearing metal armor and no horse might be assumed to be a wealthy bandit while mounted a peasant might refer to you as "lord" but not because you are a known noble but as respect. If you had a bonafided warhorse? Noblemen and guards will treat you with scrutiny (especially if someone nearby is missing such a horse) if you are not dressing nice (metal armor still implies wealth and will work)
want to know more about horses?
Medieval Misconceptions: HORSES;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reoohqjqAyYLast edited by Alcore; 2021-01-22 at 04:05 PM.
-
2021-01-22, 04:05 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
- Location
- Indianapolis
- Gender
Re: My players don't use horses!
Walking instead of horses is a bit odd if people are used to riding in the world, but it's not that strange/impossible to understand - if you don't like horses, don't want to carry extra feed and water for them, or plan to travel in areas horses don't deal with well (thick forests, mountains, swamps, blasted wastelands.. you know, places where adventures happen) it's reasonable to just not bother with them. Especially if your net travel time in the areas where horses can go isn't even sped up that much.
Boats is a bit weirder, IMO, because most of the times when 'go by boat' is a reasonable travel option 'just walk there instead'.. isn't. You can't walk across a large body of water or a major river. Assuming you aren't rich/magically powered enough yet to go with 'we're going to fly/teleport/Wind Walk across' instead, your option is a boat or not going at all.
(And of course in the perspective of D&D 3.5 and derivatives specifically 'how do we travel on land' is only a low-level problem anyways. Eventually you just summon up a Phantom Steed and ride everywhere on a tireless conjuration that moves at 200+ feet per round, or Wind Walk, or teleport, or everybody has permanent flight items, or any of a dozen other ways to completely obviate "how long will it take to get there" as an actual problem.)
-
2021-01-22, 04:09 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2013
Re: My players don't use horses!
In addition DMs like to run random encounters when traveling. If the players travel by boat they WILL encounter pirates or sea monsters and bad weather on their journey. The warriors are screwed since they can't wear armor because if they are pushed overboard during the combat or bad weather they sink and drown. Traveling by road they WILL encounter bandits or orc/hobgoblin raiders and big tough monsters like owlbears or trolls. The horses become collateral damage. Some DMs will roll for random encounters every game day. Such an encounter could be benign - no combat pleasant conversation with NPCs or a noticeable natural wonder to explore that provides a minor valuable thing - but because it's rolled every day that further insists there WILL be that bandit/raider/big tough monster combat. Players don't get "a week later you arrive".
To encourage use of horses and boats a DM must have traveling times that don't involve encounters. Players must arrive a few days earlier than by walking whereever they need to go without any harassment of any kind on their journey and get to benefit somehow being early to their destination. This doesn't mean never have random encounters on journies, but it needs to happen a significant amount of time so that players don't feel like targets just because they travel a road or take to the sea. NPCs get to travel without being accosted. So too should they.
-
2021-01-22, 04:18 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
Re: My players don't use horses!
Sounds like a “I’m trying to make D&D realistic” problem. While I of course heartily endorse you playing not-D&D, there are a few ways around this:
1. Talk with the players. If they’re terrified that you’ll take equipment (and remember that for some classes equipment = progression more than actual progression does) explain to them that you are not out to use their equipment as a plot point.
2. A bit at the other end, you can start killing characters (preferably in lack of mobility related circumstances). Equipment is scary because it exists in the limbo where some DMs think of it as a lesser trick and therefore might use it freely, but players realize that it is a fate nearing death for the playability of a character in many cases. Whereas everyone in a modern D&D game assumes the compact is the DM won’t try to kill the PCs, indeed he’ll be sure to balance such that they are unlikely to die - death may have the higher greater impact, but it is unlikely to actually be used. Hence why players cheerfully assault a tribe of orcs but won’t use a horse.
3. Make equipment superfluous. Equipment everywhere. You don’t need to worry about losing your chain mail if you can easily and frequently get more chain mail.
4. As the mean version, penalize the crap out of anyone carrying more than 45 lbs. How do you end up not carrying said weight? Well, you put it on a horse...
-
2021-01-22, 04:44 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
- Gender
-
2021-01-22, 05:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2019
- Location
- Montana
Re: My players don't use horses!
My belief is that over time the entire process of travel has been glossed over to the point that most game systems now just ignore it unless you are doing some sort of hexploration, which is often just reduced to dice rolls based on the travel speed of your slowest speed party member anyway. And the availability of travel enhancing magic makes overland travel obsolete at some point. Even magic that makes camping easier/safer isn't mount friendly. Well unless you have some way to get your horse to climb rope to rest in the Rope Trick dimensional space.
In reality, travel by horse has a lot of benefits. The distances people are throwing out aren't all the story, and aren't even necessarily all that accurate depending on how you are going about things. First of all, with decent trails, even in hilly country, you should be able to cover 30-40 miles per day pretty easily on horseback. But you will be covering that distance in maybe 4-5 hours, which would include a half hour break in the middle. This gives the horses a chance to graze (so no, you aren't carrying a bunch of rations for the horses) and rest, while you still have plenty of daylight to hunt, set traps, set up defenses around your camp, or whatever. If you want to cover more distance then you will be like a cavalry unit with an extra horse per rider and you would swap mounts at breaks and stretch your daily travel up to 60 or 70 miles. I think that was supposed to be a pace that could be kept to daily for a week or more. Or you could be like the Huns and have 3-4 mounts per rider and potentially cover up to 100 miles in a day. If you really want to be like the Huns, you just eat any horses that can't keep up with your pace, and raid for more as you go. If you are really pushing things, you might not be able to push your animals to the longer distances for more than a few days, but saying horse travel isn't any faster or give any benefits over being on foot isn't really accurate. There are of course a lot of factors that can impact travel distance from more rugged terrain, dense trees/brush, or horrible weather. The worse the conditions are, the closer walking and horseback will be as far as raw distance per hour goes.
I can certainly see all the game system objections to having a horse, though. I'm currently in a Pathfinder 1E game with someone that is trying out mounted combat. We have had a lot of combats that were mostly with small sized creatures. If he stays mounted, he doesn't usually take any damage except from ranged weapons, because all melee attacks are against his horse. I think it has been near 0 at least twice and unconscious at least once. I'm surprised the poor horse has lasted this long. We are only level 2, so we probably just haven't run into anything that could kill it that we didn't just run away from anyway.
As far as the water goes, boats and ships are scary. You don't even need real deep water, since an accident on a ferry crossing a river swelled with spring run off could easily be a tpk event if the dice aren't cooperating.
-
2021-01-22, 05:34 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2005
- Location
- 61.2° N, 149.9° W
- Gender
Re: My players don't use horses!
It's also possible you're seeing the effects of "three level appropriate encounters between A and B" type stuff. While it's often paired with speed of plot and railroads it is also pushed by systems/adventures that want to meet certain fights-per-day goals.
When you know that travel results in X number of fights and each fight has to be in an "appropriate" range then it pushes players to prep for X number of fights and minimize losses (dead horses, drowning). They'll also know they won't find "appropriate" treasure that they can't carry. Contrast with an older style of a chance of an encounter once or twice a day, the random encounter table includes non-wombat encounters, and the possibility of loot that just the PCs can't carry. Players will start caring about travel speed, carrying capacities, and trade-offs.
-
2021-01-22, 05:42 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2011
- Gender
Re: My players don't use horses!
The speed of plot is the only speed anything can move at, because the players are the plot. It is where they are and what they are doing. That's the nature of a game. If the players aren't there, the game doesn't exist.
If you want your players to take less time travelling between places, you need to make them feel like they're getting something by doing so. (And again, not merely avoiding losing something, getting something, it needs to be better if you want them to do it.)
-
2021-01-22, 05:49 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2016
- Location
- Earth and/or not-Earth
- Gender
Re: My players don't use horses!
It's only metagaming if you choose to make it metagaming. The characters live in the world, and they know things that are common knowledge. If everyone knows that adventurers' horses tend to get killed, or that boats tend to get attacked by aquatic monsters, then the characters should know that as well.
This makes a lot of sense to me. Why would we spend a big chunk of our limited gaming time on the journey if the game is about what's at the end of the journey?I made a webcomic, featuring absurdity, terrible art, and alleged morals.
-
2021-01-22, 05:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2019
-
2021-01-22, 05:59 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2006
- Location
Re: My players don't use horses!
Untrue; if the world has things happening whether the PCs are there or not, they'll see the results of things be different if they're there early rather than late. If the solstice is the date the princess will be sacrificed to the dark god to conjure the demon suzerain into the world, and the PCs' choices of how fast they travel determines whether they arrive before the solstice, after the solstice, or during the solstice, that changes the encounter they have there and possibly going forwards.
I don't disagree with this, but you keep saying it without providing any examples. What would be "gaining something," to you, rather than "losing something?" Anything I can think of that might be a reward for faster travel could be turned around and named a "punishment" for not traveling fast enough.
-
2021-01-22, 06:02 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
- Gender
Re: My players don't use horses!
I agree with Telok. If the party is adventuring between two cities and they know a town is in the middle, they can be pretty assured the game is going to go: Wilderness encounter, town encounter, wilderness encounter, you made it. Horses vs. not horses won't make a difference.
If the game is 1 encounter a day and it takes less days if you use horses there is some incentive to start with them, but chances are the horses are going to die partway and then you walk the rest anyway. The alternative is a clock of "you have to make it in 4 days" but then the horses become an escort mission.
-
2021-01-22, 06:08 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2012
Re: My players don't use horses!
You could give them an item that summons horses for free. If the magical horses die or if they have to leave the horses behind it doesn't matter. They just summon more. Tell 'em not to abuse the item, or if it is really needed put limits on the item like the horses can't attack or can only be summoned 1/day to prevent spamming.
-
2021-01-22, 06:11 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2008
- Location
- Italy
- Gender
Re: My players don't use horses!
what about other campaigns? maybe before you they had one of those jerkasses DM who conditioned them that way? or perhaps they read too many internet forums...
perhaps you could ask them
now i am envisioning a fighter build based on dropping a soapbox and jumping on it as part of every attackIn memory of Evisceratus: he dreamed of a better world, but he lacked the class levels to make the dream come true.
Ridiculous monsters you won't take seriously even as they disembowel you
my take on the highly skilled professional: the specialized expert
-
2021-01-22, 06:20 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2011
- Gender
Re: My players don't use horses!
Unless they can reload their save and do it differently though, all of the things that didn’t happen couldn’t have happened. The events they experienced are the only ones that could have happened. That’s what I mean by things happening at the speed of plot. There only one thread and it always proceeds forwards at the pace of the players. You might think there were potential branches, but only the ones they chose were real in their game.
I don't disagree with this, but you keep saying it without providing any examples. What would be "gaining something," to you, rather than "losing something?" Anything I can think of that might be a reward for faster travel could be turned around and named a "punishment" for not traveling fast enough.
Instead of saying “because you walked you arrived late and got less” make the players believe they will get more than normal if they are particularly fast.
Instead of applying a penalty because they walked and are tired, give them a small temporary bonus because they took the boat and got to relax.*
You don’t start off with a -1 sword and earn your normal one for a reason.
*as long as their character concept supports it. A potential problem with the whole “can only rest properly in a bed” thing that people sometimes want to do to stop players camping because it’s free is that there are at least two whole character classes in the core set whose specific deal is the opposite of that.Last edited by GloatingSwine; 2021-01-22 at 06:24 PM.
-
2021-01-22, 06:23 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2012
-
2021-01-22, 06:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2019
Re: My players don't use horses!
While that's true, that's not what most people mean by the expression.
-
2021-01-22, 06:42 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2011
- Gender
Re: My players don't use horses!
It kind of is though. The core of “travels at the speed of plot” is that the interesting events will happen when the protagonists arrive. In a game the players are the protagonists, and without players you don’t have a game. So the only time any events can ever happen is when they arrive. What they experience is plot, what they don’t because of the road not taken doesn’t exist.
-
2021-01-22, 06:42 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2019
Re: My players don't use horses!
That's not what a speed of plot usually means. I have seen that phrase used a numerous times as a criticism against lazy writing in actual books where no one expects ability to explore different branches. Even if you don't see it as bad it's not a description which applies universally.
If I were to put it in D&D terms I would use dichotomy of "tailored vs status quo". If an army of evil moves to strike at the capital and heroes can arrive days before (and help to prepare defenses) or just in a nick of time to get in before the gates are closed or right before Evil Overlord orders the assault or even to the burned out ruins (which means the "quest" to "protect the capital" has effectively failed) it's not a speed of plot. If they always arrive to the most dramatic moment it's a speed of plot.
Edit: there is a difference between "events will happen when they get there" and "a specific event known in advance will happen when they get there".Last edited by Saint-Just; 2021-01-22 at 06:46 PM.