OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

[KorvinStarmast]

But if I went through my old modules I'm sure I could find quite a few teleport portals without saving throws inside. It feels like they were a fairly common trope in dungeon building.

If you look in the "Underworld and Wilderness Adventures" example dungeon (Original D&D, 1974) teleporting features in passageways were one of the "this is a trick to play on your players" and no mention of "there is a saving throw" was made. I think the 'save versus teleportation' concept came with WoTC era D&D. I recall being teleported without having to roll a save, but it's been a lot of years so details aren't coming out of deep memory at the moment.

[Jasdoif]

If you look in the "Underworld and Wilderness Adventures" example dungeon (Original D&D, 1974) teleporting features in passageways were one of the "this is a trick to play on your players" and no mention of "there is a saving throw" was made. I think the 'save versus teleportation' concept came with WoTC era D&D. I recall being teleported without having to roll a save, but it's been a lot of years so details aren't coming out of deep memory at the moment.

Among 3.5 books, Dungeonscape mentions teleporters as dungeon features, with no saving throw given. Closest thing is that if the teleportation isn't obvious and the destination area deliberately resembles the departure area, it takes a DC 25 Spot check to notice anything has changed.

[Snails]

The Giant could have simply handwaved that there were permanent local Gates here and Haley spotted some hidden by mundane means "doorknob" that bypassed.

(Of course, if it were an actual permanent Gate that is physically something that gets in the way of observing the corridor behind, someone would surely still complain it is "just like an illusion" and, because magic is involved at all, then something is "hidden by magic", so true seeing "should" penetrate.)

But instead of installing something so overtly "near-Epic" in the foyer of a few hundred doorways, the Giant thought of a clever and interestingly confusing means to accomplish the same with mere high level magic. I applaud his cleverness, and his trust that the readers could handle something a bit confusing.

To me, as a player of the D&D game, the weird parts are whether (1) you can be scrying and not know it, and (2) you can be teleported and not know it. It would catch me off guard to do such things and have my PC not notice...something..., even if the corridors look identical. That said, there is actually nothing in the RAW that gives clear guidance, so every possible ruling on the matter is not wrong.

[subtledoctor]

A somewhat related point: can a person who cast True Seeing also use Scrying, or would they just see a pool/mirror?

This right here is the most incisive comment I’ve seen. If True Seeing doesn’t block you from using Scrying, then it shouldn’t do anything here.

Furthermore I can't stress enough that there does not *need* to be any divinations on the entrance side of the portal. You can see the actual place the tunnel goes to - the green tunnel when the portal is active, and the yellow tunnel when it is inactive.

By contrast, the OOTS sees the same image regardless whether the portal is active. So the divination appears to be active there, when the teleportation effect is also active. From THIS vantage, I’m open to the suggestion that the real view (the dead end) is “hidden” and that True Seeing should maybe (maybe) be useful.

But nobody has used True Seeing from that vantage. RC only used TS in places where the true form and path of the tunnel was visible in its true form. (Including the portal itself - as noted, Haley could spot the runes no problem, without any magical aid.)

[KorvinStarmast]

Among 3.5 books, Dungeonscape mentions teleporters as dungeon features, with no saving throw given. Closest thing is that if the teleportation isn't obvious and the destination area deliberately resembles the departure area, it takes a DC 25 Spot check to notice anything has changed.

Was that one of the supplements that Rich worked on?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Was that one of the supplements that Rich worked on?

:: Googles ::

Dungeonscape
Book by Jason Bulmahn and Rich Burlew

Originally published: February 2007
Authors: Rich Burlew, Jason Bulmahn
Game: Dungeons & Dragons (3rd Edition)
Genre: Fantasy Fiction
Page count: 160
Publisher: Wizards of the Coast

Sounds like that is a yes.

GW