OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

[Debatra]

I'm pretty sure that's the case. A better question is whether disarming the trap permanently (instead of bypassing it) would trap Team Evil in the tunnel they entered or not.

Does this mean there now exists the potential for the OOTS to trap Team Evil inside if they break the trap? It wouldn't be a win, but it would give the Order a lot of breathing room.

This would probably be among the worst things they could possibly do. Unless whatever tunnel Team Evil is in is dimensionally locked (which would negate the portal entirely), Xykon can just teleport them out. And then Redcloak would think to check the door they went in and find the real tunnel.

[Shining Wrath]

I notice that the scorch mark varies depending on where you are in the tunnels / trap complex.

It's fully visible only for those who are past the trap.
For those outside (Blackwing in panel #9) the door-side scorch is visible, but not the OotS side.
Once Blackwing is through (panel #14), again, the door-side scorch is visible, but not the OotS side.
When Roy sticks his head through to the dead end, only the OotS-side scorch is visible.

This is a clue that Red Cloak or Oona may notice and figure out. "Hey, why is there a scorch mark here with a sharp edge?" And then someone pops off Dispel Magic on the grounds that there must be an illusion.

[Ghosty]

„Yes, this theory keeps coming up, and I happen to be one of the folks who keep pointing out that »all the doors lead to the Gate if one has a rogue« would be a horrible defense. (…) [I]f there are two corridors behind each door, the second of which can only be accessed if the trap is disarmed, and only one of the secondary corridors (which are guarded) leads to the Gate, it's clever. (…)
If, rather, disarming the trap behind any door leads to the one secondary corridor which leads to the Gate, now that's DUMB, period, even if the secondary corridor is guarded.”

Then it's a thousand or so dead-ends, and one or a few doors that lead to the Gate, once you initially detect and bypass the Teleport portal? Sounds like Tomb of Horrors on steroids. I hope the Order packed a lunch... I also hope the false corridors aren't as death-trapped as ToH was.

But I suspect we'll be finding the Invisible Duo long before then.

[Ghosty]

This would probably be among the worst things they could possibly do. Unless whatever tunnel Team Evil is in is dimensionally locked (which would negate the portal entirely), Xykon can just teleport them out. And then Redcloak would think to check the door they went in and find the real tunnel.

Can they Teleport through dimensional stone? Or does it just stop things like Etherealness and Ghostform? Guess they could try and find out...

[Coyote0715]

If I had a band, that's the name I'd want: Doom Tunnel featuring Kill Skeleton.

[LtPowers]

I just noticed Blackwing is visible flying in the panel where Roy's head went through. So, I'm guessing Roy would be transported to TE's tunnel if he were to do what I suggested.

I don't think so. I think it's more accurate to say that Roy's head is in the actual continuation (termination) of the tunnel to which Blackwing and Team Evil were teleported. We can see Blackwing because there was no point erecting a divination-screen to show something else there -- no one would ever be coming in from the dead end.

As for what the teleportation effect would do if Roy were to cross back through, I think he'd end up in the Order's tunnel -- anything else raises scary questions about being halfway through the portal.


Powers &8^]

[Metastachydium]

I just noticed Blackwing is visible flying in the panel where Roy's head went through. So, I'm guessing Roy would be transported to TE's tunnel if he were to do what I suggested. If TE, returning to the door, saw the portal, disabled it, and walked past it, they'd see Roy's head's alcove dead end.

So no 3rd set of tunnels. (Funny what you miss: I'd have sworn Blackwing wasn't there in that panel, the first time I read the strip.)

Yeah, I had the same epiphany in the meantime: the dead end is part of the fake tunnel.

Then it's a thousand or so dead-ends, and one or a few doors that lead to the Gate, once you initially detect and bypass the Teleport portal? Sounds like Tomb of Horrors on steroids.

Mhm. That's what I think it is.

But I suspect we'll be finding the Invisible Duo long before then.

Agreed.

[danielxcutter]

Can they Teleport through dimensional stone? Or does it just stop things like Etherealness and Ghostform? Guess they could try and find out...

I'm pretty sure "multidimensional stone" here means "exists on the Ethereal Plane as well so you can't cheese it by going incorporeal."

[2D8HP]

I'm sure I'm not the first to think this, but I know read Blacking in the voice of Raymond Chandler's detective Phillip Marlowe.

[Kantaki]

As usual Blackwing is the best.
Flap Flap Flap.

So, it's because the way it is set up that Tree Seeing doesn't tell that it's happening.

Tree Seeing?
A very useful spell if you have to navigate a forest.

[hamishspence]

I'm pretty sure "multidimensional stone" here means "exists on the Ethereal Plane as well so you can't cheese it by going incorporeal."

Or at least, exists on both the corporeal and incorporeal levels. There's a certain amount of debate over whether creatures or objects on the Ethereal Plane can interact with "Incorporeal Creatures on the Material Plane" at all, and vice versa.

"Force" is the most notable example of something that exists on all 3 levels, the material, the incorporeal, and the ethereal. A human a shadow, and a phase spider on the Ethereal plane, who meet a Wall of Force, all of these cannot pass through it normally.


So "multidimensional stone" might be stone that is enhanced with Force.

[Resileaf]

Well, I sure hope somebody picks up that phone.

Because I called it!

[danielxcutter]

Well, I sure hope somebody picks up that phone.

Because I called it!

People having literally been calling this since last year.

[locksmith of lo]

so many questions answered! the wait was almost worth it!

[drazen]

Yeah, I had the same epiphany in the meantime: the dead end is part of the fake tunnel.

Based on the information we have been presented, I think we have the following scenario:



DOOR ---- A||Portal/Trap||B ---- Real Corridor --- ??

-----------------------------------------------------
------------ Several layers of Dirt and Rock -----------
-----------------------------------------------------

Dead End --- B||Portal/Trap||A ---- Fake Corridor --- Fake Dungeon


A teleports to A, B teleports to B, depending on which side of the portal you came from. You have to disable/disarm the trap to reach the "real" corridor. Doesn't mean there's anything in the real corridor, just that you'd have to do this for hundreds of doors.

The only oddity is that we can see Blackwing from the dead-end, rather than what's in the fake tunnel. But there probably was little reason for anyone to see the fake tunnel from the dead-end, and in fact that dead end could be a convenient hiding spot, where you'd probably want to be able to monitor the actual door, rather than the fake/teleported tunnel.

[Bedinsis]

I was legit concerned that the punchline would be that Xykon had discovered Blackwing who now would be inches away from death. Looks like Blackwing shared my concern.

[NobleCuriosity]

I think the idea is that dust and light from the door is also teleported through the barrier, causing similar discoloration in the fake dungeon, while the real dungeon has not become discolored because it's protected from the outside elements.

Thanks, I didn't really get this until now, but it makes sense. Now I'm just confused by the scorch mark on blackwing's side when Roy went through the teleporter.

[danielxcutter]

Thanks, I didn't really get this until now, but it makes sense. Now I'm just confused by the scorch mark on blackwing's side when Roy went through the teleporter.

The rat head was on both "green" sides when she started disarming it, and on both sides of the tunnel after she disarmed it... maybe that's it? I have a mental image as how that might have happened but I'm not sure how to put it into words...

[masonwheeler]

Remember in 428, when Xykon pulled a shell game on the Azurites?

A con man doesn't choose to play the shell game with you if there is any possibility of him actually losing. The con isn't in getting you to pick the wrong shell. The con is in getting you to accept that the basic premise of the game is still being followed. The con is in getting you to pick a shell at all.
The ball isn't under the first shell... or the second shell... or even the third shell. The ball is in the con man's palm the whole time.

Problem is, all this time everyone's been falling for the shell game... including the Monster in the Darkness. It's been attempting to sabotage Team Evil's progress by marking extra doors, but Xkyon knows how to run a shell game. Which means that he's bound to figure out what's going on sooner or later... and MitD has inadvertently made it so that moment will arrive sooner, rather than later.

[NobleCuriosity]

The rat head was on both "green" sides when she started disarming it, and on both sides of the tunnel after she disarmed it... maybe that's it? I have a mental image as how that might have happened but I'm not sure how to put it into words...

But if it's really there too, why doesn't Blackwing see the scorch mark on the "fake tunnel" side of the portal in page 2 panel 3? It seems to directly contradict what Roy sees in page 2 panel 7, which would have agreed with the "scorch is on everything but the dead end" theory.

[Linneris]

Okay, this is very clear! My question is: did nobody on Team Evil think of casting Detect Magic right before entering a dungeon? This was standard procedure in most D&D groups I've played in. I'd expect Redcloak to have done it.

[danielxcutter]

Okay, this is very clear! My question is: did nobody on Team Evil think of casting Detect Magic right before entering a dungeon? This was standard procedure in most D&D groups I've played in. I'd expect Redcloak to have done it.

A fairly good question; maybe they're warded with something like Magic Aura. That can help it avoid detection IIRC.

[bunsen_h]

This is the "Alright, chumps, here's how everything works, please stop making the same basic theories a thousand times" strip.

I remain unconvinced that the Order's theories are correct. It's possible but I'm not going to count on it.

Or at least, exists on both the corporeal and incorporeal levels. There's a certain amount of debate over whether creatures or objects on the Ethereal Plane can interact with "Incorporeal Creatures on the Material Plane" at all, and vice versa.

"Force" is the most notable example of something that exists on all 3 levels, the material, the incorporeal, and the ethereal. A human a shadow, and a phase spider on the Ethereal plane, who meet a Wall of Force, all of these cannot pass through it normally.

A human, a shadow, and a phase spider walk in, and are barred..?

[Jasdoif]

Okay, this is very clear! My question is: did nobody on Team Evil think of casting Detect Magic right before entering a dungeon? This was standard procedure in most D&D groups I've played in. I'd expect Redcloak to have done it.

Detect magic has that vague line about "Magical areas, multiple types of magic, or strong local magical emanations may distort or conceal weaker auras"; it's possible the multidimensional stone the place is built out of is interfering.

[b_jonas]

I think some of you misunderstand the traps.

Redcloak and Xykon and Oona know about the teleportation traps behind every door. They could have detected its magic, or Oona could have told them, because they're common knowledge among the bugbear town who lives from hunting in those dungeons.

Team Evil is not in a “fake dungeon”. They're in one of the real dungeons where the teleportation traps lead them, with lots of “cool stuff to murder” aka “the nastiest monsters of the world”. These are the dungeons that Oona was talking about: “Hunt a little, tame a little. Wait, then monsters come back, start all over.” One of those dungeons also hides Kraagor's Gate.

The Order bypassed the trap, and are now in a short tunnel that was originally behind the trap that has nothing interesting in it. No monsters, and definitely no Kraagor's Gate. The bugbear community, Xykon and Redcloak has already bypassed these traps a few times, saw the short uninteresting tunnels, and know that they have nothing interesting in them.

From an in universe perspective, the teleportation traps are there because there'd be no way to put a thousand huge dungeons with monsters actually into that mountain. You saw how tightly the doors were packed in the wall, if there were full dugeons behind each of them they'd overlap each other. The actual dungeons are more spread out underground. It doesn't really matter where they are, because those teleportation traps are the most convenient way to enter.

From a narrative perspective, the teleportation traps are there because the final confrontation of the Order with Team Evil has to be delayed, and this way Team Evil could miss the order for a short time.

The only thing Xykon and Redcloak actually missed is looking behind the scrying part of the trap, where the Order is hiding, which is not too surprising because those places are usually boring so Xykon stopped paying attention to them. If Xykon weren't hurrying the team because he wants to fight montsers, the cautious Redcloak would have noticed the Order by now. Redcloak's words were “We might as well follow him. Putting the dwarves aside, we need more data to determine the scale of the error with regard to the door marks.” This method of hiding can work once, just as melding into stone could work once, but it won't protect the Order forever.

[Shale]

Detect magic has that vague line about "Magical areas, multiple types of magic, or strong local magical emanations may distort or conceal weaker auras"; it's possible the multidimensional stone the place is built out of is interfering.

It might also just be warded against detection from the outside (where the rubes are) but not from the inside of the real tunnel (since if you're already there, either you know what's going on already or you're going to figure it out just via empirical testing)

The real question is, since that teleport spell only works in one direction....how does the Order get out?

[Metastachydium]

The real question is, since that teleport spell only works in one direction....how does the Order get out?

The Order was never teleported anywhere, since the conjuration effect that does that is part of the trap. All they need to do is disable/bypass the trap again and walk out.

[Kantaki]

The real question is, since that teleport spell only works in one direction....how does the Order get out?

I'd assume the tunnel they're in leads somewhere*, so maybe they just follow it?

*Because it's there, mostly.
Basically my logic is, if there wasn't a point to this tunnel Serini wouldn't have bothered with it and the Order would stand in a dead end, like in the other dungeon.

[bunsen_h]

The Order bypassed the trap, and are now in a short tunnel that was originally behind the trap that has nothing interesting in it. No monsters, and definitely no Kraagor's Gate. The bugbear community, Xykon and Redcloak has already bypassed these traps a few times, saw the short uninteresting tunnels, and know that they have nothing interesting in them.

Xykon is having fun just killing stuff. Redcloak wouldn't assume that the hidden tunnels all have nothing interesting in them, just based on a small sample.

[ratfox]

I notice that the scorch mark varies depending on where you are in the tunnels / trap complex.

It's fully visible only for those who are past the trap.
For those outside (Blackwing in panel #9) the door-side scorch is visible, but not the OotS side.
Once Blackwing is through (panel #14), again, the door-side scorch is visible, but not the OotS side.
When Roy sticks his head through to the dead end, only the OotS-side scorch is visible.

This is a clue that Red Cloak or Oona may notice and figure out. "Hey, why is there a scorch mark here with a sharp edge?" And then someone pops off Dispel Magic on the grounds that there must be an illusion.

But there is something that doesn't make sense on the drawings. On panel #14, viewed from Blackwing, the scorch mark is only on the door-side; meaning that in the tunnel #2 there is no scorch mark on the not-door-side. On panel #18, viewed from Roy's head, there is a scorch mark on the not-door-side — but that's the not-door-side of of tunnel #2, since we can see Blackwing.

Either the scorch mark should be on Blackwing's side as well on panel #14, or it should not be there on panel #18. We could imagine logical reasons for the scorch mark to be there or not, but it should be consistent.