OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

[KorvinStarmast]

Or at least, exists on both the corporeal and incorporeal levels. There's a certain amount of debate over whether creatures or objects on the Ethereal Plane can interact with "Incorporeal Creatures on the Material Plane" at all, and vice versa.

"Force" is the most notable example of something that exists on all 3 levels, the material, the incorporeal, and the ethereal. A human a shadow, and a phase spider on the Ethereal plane, who meet a Wall of Force, all of these cannot pass through it normally.

TIL today, thanks. I'll see if that interaction is the same in 5e. Thanks for getting my brain churning.

A human, a shadow, and a phase spider walk in, and are barred..?

Heh, nice one.

The Order was never teleported anywhere, since the conjuration effect that does that is part of the trap. All they need to do is disable/bypass the trap again and walk out.

That's how it seems as of this strip. I'll bet the over on it.

[One Skunk Todd]

So let me see if I got this right.

This only applies to this door, but may apply to other doors.

Where you can stand:
DOOR
DEAD END
MONSTER TUNNEL
MYSTERY TUNNEL

Where you go with the trap active:
DOOR -> MONSTER TUNNEL
DEAD END -> MYSTERY TUNNEL(I think)
MONSTER TUNNEL -> DOOR
MYSTERY TUNNEL -> DEAD END

WHAT YOU SEE AND HEAR with the trap active:
DOOR -> MONSTER TUNNEL
DEAD END -> MONSTER TUNNEL
MONSTER TUNNEL -> DOOR
MYSTERY TUNNEL -> DOOR

Note, this renders the mystery tunnel invisible through the trap from any location. Obviously you can see where you are standing.

Where you go with the trap INACTVE:
DOOR -> MYSTERY TUNNEL
DEAD END -> Not known but seems likely MONSTER TUNNEL
MONSTER TUNNEL -> Not known but seems likely DEAD END
MYSTERY TUNNEL -> Not known but seems likely DOOR

It seems likely that each door would have a MYSTERY TUNNEL behind a deactivated trap, however each MYSTERY TUNNEL might simply be a place to stand and observe people coming and going through each door and may not connect any place important.

Each door with an active trap connects to a MONSTER TUNNEL, but there may be more, the same or fewer MONSTER TUNNELS than the number of doors. It seems like a one-to-one relationship though, given the restocking description from Oona.

It seems like the MONSTER TUNNELS are probably isolated from the surface with the traps deactivated. Unfortunately this is not a way to strand Team Evil since I think Xykon has epic teleport.

[gatemansgc]

doom tunnel with kill skeleton! omg i love blackwing SO much <3

also wasn't expecting the dead end on the other side of the tunnel. that means they probably ARE in the true tunnel, and that one had no connection from the outside! does that mean every door team evil took was in the same dungeon? or maybe each door warped you to a random (but consistent by door) wrong dungeon cause oona said that it takes a few days to respawn so it couldn't just be the same dungeon over and over!

wb

[Psychronia]

It's what any decently autonomous employee would do. Good work, Blackwing.

SCIENCE! We sorta figured it out, but the Order has learned to be thorough about this.

[BaronOfHell]

But there is something that doesn't make sense on the drawings. On panel #14, viewed from Blackwing, the scorch mark is only on the door-side; meaning that in the tunnel #2 there is no scorch mark on the not-door-side. On panel #18, viewed from Roy's head, there is a scorch mark on the not-door-side — but that's the not-door-side of of tunnel #2, since we can see Blackwing.

Either the scorch mark should be on Blackwing's side as well on panel #14, or it should not be there on panel #18. We could imagine logical reasons for the scorch mark to be there or not, but it should be consistent.

My take is that the trap was disabled when the scorch mark was created.

[Darth Paul]

I, too, would definitely wait for the umpteenth level fighter's permission to amscray the dungeon where the lich and his evil high priest buddy are just hanging out looking for things to kill. (Not.)

[The Pilgrim]

My take on how it works is:

DUNGEON A
-----------------------------------------------------
D ### @[ +++++++++++++++++++++++++
-----------------------------------------------------

DUNGEON B
------------------------------------------------------
| ### ]@ #######################
------------------------------------------------------

D = Door to Surface
# = Green Floor
+ = Yellow Floor
| = Dead End
@ = Dimensional Portal (DP) -> Switches you between Dungeon A and Dungeon B
[ = Divination Screen 1 (DS1) -> Shows Dungeon B to anyone coming from the Door
] = Divination Screen 2 (DS2) -> Shows Dungeon A to anyone coming from the Passageway

....

Therefore:

- OOTS enter door of Dungeon A, DP active, they see (B)
- OOTS deactivate DP and DS1, they see (A) and cross into (A)
- Team Evil enter door of (A), DP and DS1 active. They see (B), cross into (B)
- Team Evil now in (B). If they look back, DS2 shows them (A)
- When looking towards the door, Order still see (A), as DS1 only triggers if you are looking from the door side
- Blackwing enters, DP and DS1 active. He sees (B), crosses into (B)
- Roy crosses DP while it's active. As he's in (A - passageway side), he goes to (B - dead end side).
- Blackwing is visible from Roy's position because DS2 only triggers if you are looking from the passageway side.
- Roy goes back. DP active. As he's in (B - dead end side), he goes to (A - passageway side), back to the OOTS.
- Blackwing goes back, crosses DP. As he's in (B - passageway side), goes back to (A - door side)

....

Now, my Speculation:

- If the OOTS deactivates DP again, they can exit Dungeon A from the same door they entered.
- If the OOTS deactivates DP while Roy is halfway, he dies as the half of his body in B is detatched from the half of his body in A.
- If the OOTS disables DP permanently, Team Evil can't go back to the door, effectively trapping them in Dungeon B

[One Skunk Todd]

But there is something that doesn't make sense on the drawings. On panel #14, viewed from Blackwing, the scorch mark is only on the door-side; meaning that in the tunnel #2 there is no scorch mark on the not-door-side. On panel #18, viewed from Roy's head, there is a scorch mark on the not-door-side — but that's the not-door-side of of tunnel #2, since we can see Blackwing.

Either the scorch mark should be on Blackwing's side as well on panel #14, or it should not be there on panel #18. We could imagine logical reasons for the scorch mark to be there or not, but it should be consistent.

You're right, the mark should not be there in #18. I think it's an art error. I am guessing the scorch mark mismatch is what will give away the game to Team Evil.

[gerryq]

Presumably, the dead end is physically connected to Team Evil's tunnel, and magically connected to the area around Kragor's Tomb, while the Order's tunnel is physically connected to Kragor's Tomb and magically connected to the dead end. Otherwise, we have a third tunnel somewhere supplying the dead end for no reason.

It's not that simple - there are seemingly a LOT of real tunnels. Either the Order is in one of a thousand tunnels that presumably all join up somehow, or they are in a single special tunnel. The dead end connected to that could be the start of any other tunnel.

Unless there is only one tunnel with a magical trap (and when you think about it, that IS the right way to design this), and they stumbled into it. That means there must be a million tunnels in total :D

If so, and if MitD marked this one, maybe he does know something.

[The Pilgrim]

It's not that simple - there are seemingly a LOT of real tunnels. Either the Order is in one of a thousand tunnels that presumably all join up somehow, or they are in a single special tunnel. The dead end connected to that could be the start of any other tunnel.

Unless there is only one tunnel with a magical trap (and when you think about it, that IS the right way to design this), and they stumbled into it. That means there must be a million tunnels in total :D

If so, and if MitD marked this one, maybe he does know something.

My take is that there are, say, 1000 doors, each with a portal trap connecting it to one of 1000 dungeons that are somewhere else. And that's how it's possible that each door leads to a different dungeon without overlapping, despite all the doors being so close to each other.

Without the portal traps, 999 of the doors leads to a dead end, and 1 of the doors leads to the Gate... and it's defenders.

If you don't figure out the traps, the Defenders let you go on picking doors unmolested, as you will never find the Gate.

If you figure out the trap, though, the Defenders aren't going to let you continue picking doors unmolested until you eventually find the Jackpot.

Therefore, the Order is about to meet the Gate Defenders.

[Riftwolf]

...Mountebank is one of those Dragon Compendium base classes right? IIRC I think it did explicitly get its magical abilities from lower powers...

You get demonic powers by standing on benches?

[r2d2go]

My take is that there are, say, 1000 doors, each with a portal trap connecting it to one of 1000 dungeons that are somewhere else. And that's how it's possible that each door leads to a different dungeon without overlapping, despite all the doors being so close to each other.

Without the portal traps, 999 of the doors leads to a dead end, and 1 of the doors leads to the Gate... and it's defenders.

If you don't figure out the traps, the Defenders let you go on picking doors unmolested, as you will never find the Gate.

If you figure out the trap, though, the Defenders aren't going to let you continue picking doors unmolested until you eventually find the Jackpot.

Therefore, the Order is about to meet the Gate Defenders.

By that logic, though, you might as well put all (or at least a vast majority) of your defenders in the 1 door that leads to the gate - there's no reason to put the "true", high-powered defenders anywhere else. In fact, given that the trap just looks mostly like a trap, and you wouldn't notice the separation effect unless you specifically disabled the trap, let it re-enable, and then watched someone else walk in... It makes more sense for most, or all, of the dungeons to have just "trick" defenders anyway, to keep up the charade.

Heck, by the Shell Game logic, you don't need to make a convenient door to the gate either way. Serini was a rogue, and while she might have honored Kraagor with the endless monsters, if she planned to never let the gate be accessed then she could just leave no physical doors to the gate. The teleport trick still helps, because if you fall for it, even if you start tunneling through walls you will never find the gate. But, if you happen to disable that trap, it's better to require specific wallhacks/teleportation and guessing to find the gate, rather than potentially just letting people walk into the gate, right?

[bunsen_h]

You're right, the mark should not be there in #18. I think it's an art error. I am guessing the scorch mark mismatch is what will give away the game to Team Evil.

I think it's more likely to be a clue to what's going on than an error. Rich would be paying especially close attention to the details of what is visible from where. If the observations aren't consistent with the theory, it's more likely that the theory is wrong than that there's a problem with the observations. In some circumstances it can mean that the observations involve an experimental protocol whose conditions aren't sufficiently controlled, but I don't think that that's likely to be the case here.

[KorvinStarmast]

If you figure out the trap, though, the Defenders aren't going to let you continue picking doors unmolested until you eventually find the Jackpot.

Therefore, the Order is about to meet the Gate Defenders.

Hmm. I need to chew on this a bit before I buy into it. Interesting approach ..

You get demonic powers by standing on benches?

Isn't that how Pun-Pun got built?

[Sneak Dog]

You're right, the mark should not be there in #18. I think it's an art error. I am guessing the scorch mark mismatch is what will give away the game to Team Evil.

Alternatively panel b7 is Blackwing leaving (meaning it's the half a scorchmark next to the entrance) and panel b9 is a mystery.

[Emanick]

Hey, last night I dreamed there would be a new comic today, and my dream came true!

Of course, I also dreamed that Rich had sketched out several pages of a long, baleful nonfiction tale about how traumatizing his last month had been, one that literally made me cry because it was so horrible, and put it directly beneath the main comic. Super glad that part did not come true.

[Draconi Redfir]

i feel like it's more accurate to say that Xykon walked into the dungeon physically connected to the door, while the order was transported somewhere else. everything just kinda points to that.

not sure why the order didn't pick up on that.

[Crusher]

Flap flap flap flap.

Lol.

[Canisius]

"Which I will do now. Flap flap flap flap"

I startled my cats.

[Canisius]

Hey, what is the url to go directly to the latest comic? I moved my bookmarks around and somehow my OOTS bookmark goes to 1222.

[Aegeus]

i feel like it's more accurate to say that Xykon walked into the dungeon physically connected to the door, while the order was transported somewhere else. everything just kinda points to that.

not sure why the order didn't pick up on that.

The trap was disabled, so the order wasn't transported anywhere. Xykon was - they saw him vanish before their eyes.

It is a little confusing because Roy pokes his head out and sees a dead end before saying that, but he was sticking his head through the teleporter, so he was seeing the fake dungeon.

[Debatra]

Hey, what is the url to go directly to the latest comic? I moved my bookmarks around and somehow my OOTS bookmark goes to 1222.

There isn't one.

[JonahFalcon]

"Exact number of additional shinies to be determined at a later date."

[MoiMagnus]

Hey, what is the url to go directly to the latest comic? I moved my bookmarks around and somehow my OOTS bookmark goes to 1222.

There isn't one direct, but https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots.html works quite well as a bookmark

[WanderingMist]

Not really; none of the members of Team Evil have the Trapfinding ability. Unless they decide to use Detect Magic or something they might never figure it out, though once they do it's only a Greater Dispel Magic away from being suppressed.

Serini's probably smart enough to prepare against that though; that spell is literally a cantrip. The traps could be masked with something like Magic Aura or something, I guess, but I doubt that's the only thing.

Detect Magic is a 1st level spell, isn't it?

Looks like the Order now has a tunnel to explore.

Would Divination on the trap let a guardian monitor the crossings, in addition to showing the portal destination as if it were just a regular tunnel?

Unfortunately, the Order demonstrating such competence means that, at least by standard tropes, the villains will probably become that much more competent as well... :P

Actually, I don't think so. At the beginning of the comic, the Order was just a group thrown together and all with wildly varying goals, while Team Evil were all on the same page. Now the Order's got everyone getting along swimmingly and Team Evil is cracking at the seams.

Bravo! This is the first time I've laughed -- really laughed -- at an OOTS strip in a long time. Blackwing's punchline cracked me up.

So now we know it's a teleportation trap much like the never-ending corridor in Wizardry I: Proving Grounds of the mad overlord (The corridor was actually 40' long, but there was a teleportation trap at 30' which sent you back to 10', so if you just walked down it you'd walk forever and never get anywhere).

This also tells us that the MITD's marking of additional doors did not help or hinder Team Evil, since they were always travelling to a decoy corridor anyway. Nonetheless, the attempt definitely counts towards a good alignment, since ze was attempting to hinder the evil villains in the most efficient way the MITD knew.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

It might hinder them a bit when they realize how to actually get through the doors, if they ever do, since they'd have to start again from the beginning.

As usual Blackwing is the best.
Flap Flap Flap.



Tree Seeing?
A very useful spell if you have to navigate a forest.

Useless if you want to spot the forest itself.

But there is something that doesn't make sense on the drawings. On panel #14, viewed from Blackwing, the scorch mark is only on the door-side; meaning that in the tunnel #2 there is no scorch mark on the not-door-side. On panel #18, viewed from Roy's head, there is a scorch mark on the not-door-side — but that's the not-door-side of of tunnel #2, since we can see Blackwing.

Either the scorch mark should be on Blackwing's side as well on panel #14, or it should not be there on panel #18. We could imagine logical reasons for the scorch mark to be there or not, but it should be consistent.

That's not an error. It just means Blackwing had already gotten back past the portal by the time Roy poked his head through the other side, since we know he essentially turned around immediately.

[Draconi Redfir]

The trap was disabled, so the order wasn't transported anywhere. Xykon was - they saw him vanish before their eyes.

It is a little confusing because Roy pokes his head out and sees a dead end before saying that, but he was sticking his head through the teleporter, so he was seeing the fake dungeon.

That doesn't really explain the floor suddenly changing colour though, or how Roy isn't able to return to the door while Blackwing can.

plus the way Redcloak and the others vanish through the barrier makes it look like the Order are the ones in a different location while team evil is just walking through.


idk, it's all super confusing and probably doesn't matter in the end. two different tunnels, that seems to be all that matters.

[Bisqwit]

That's not an error. It just means Blackwing had already gotten back past the portal by the time Roy poked his head through the other side, since we know he essentially turned around immediately.

That theory has two implications:
1. The portal presents a mirror image of what’s through
2. Panel 9 in the second section shows someone other than Blackwing passing through the portal.
I think an art error is more plausible.

[Ruck]

I think some of you misunderstand the traps.

Redcloak and Xykon and Oona know about the teleportation traps behind every door. They could have detected its magic, or Oona could have told them, because they're common knowledge among the bugbear town who lives from hunting in those dungeons.

Source? This sounds like you're making an assumption that is the exact opposite of what we've been shown.

[Frogwarrior]

So the halfling rogue from the backstory pulled a super clever trick, making it SEEM like it was a Strength Dungeon in honor of Kraagor, but only a clever rogue can see through the deception.
I'm guessing all (?) of the "real" tunnels actually lead to the facility with the Gate, although there's probably more shenanigans in the way. And every one of the "fake" monster tunnels is a dead end.

[Iakus]

I think Blackwing may be the smartest member of the group, as far as having both Intelligence AND Wisdom...