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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    That doesn't really explain the floor suddenly changing colour though, or how Roy isn't able to return to the door while Blackwing can.

    plus the way Redcloak and the others vanish through the barrier makes it look like the Order are the ones in a different location while team evil is just walking through.
    The "one-way teleport trap" is an oldie but a goodie among my group. I first used it in one of my dungeons back in the mid-1980s.

    Does that technically make it a century old?

    Quote Originally Posted by ratfox View Post
    But there is something that doesn't make sense on the drawings. On panel #14, viewed from Blackwing, the scorch mark is only on the door-side; meaning that in the tunnel #2 there is no scorch mark on the not-door-side. On panel #18, viewed from Roy's head, there is a scorch mark on the not-door-side — but that's the not-door-side of of tunnel #2, since we can see Blackwing.

    Either the scorch mark should be on Blackwing's side as well on panel #14, or it should not be there on panel #18. We could imagine logical reasons for the scorch mark to be there or not, but it should be consistent.
    In #14, Blackwing has flown through the teleport barrier into a different corridor, so there's no scorch mark on his side; but he can still see back through it from that side, so half the mark is visible. In #18, Roy now has his head poked through into the dead end corridor, so there's no scorch mark on that side, but the opposite half is visible.

    In all the other panels featuring the OOTS, they are the only ones who can see both sides of the teleport barrier and both parts of the corridor that they walked through, so they can see both halves of the scorch mark.
    Last edited by Darth Paul; 2021-01-22 at 06:50 PM.
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    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
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  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bisqwit View Post
    That theory has two implications:
    1. The portal presents a mirror image of what’s through
    2. Panel 9 in the second section shows someone other than Blackwing passing through the portal.
    I think an art error is more plausible.
    I think the divination shows the same view regardless of which side of the projection you view it from: the area leading from the door they all entered to the trap with the scorch mark.

    When we see Roy's head poke through the projection, we're just observing the same thing that V and the rest of the party are observing from the other side, flipped around because we're seeing the image from the "back" so the scorch mark is on the left from our point of view and the right from the point of view of the OOTS.
    Last edited by pearl jam; 2021-01-22 at 06:47 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pearl jam View Post
    I think the divination shows the same view regardless of which side of the projection you view it from: the area leading from the door they all entered to the trap with the scorch mark.
    Nonetheless, the view with the half scorch mark on the floor is mirrored between panels 3 and 5 in the second part. In panel 3 (and 4 and 6), it is on the right side. In panel 5, it is on the left side. So either there is mirroring happening on (in which case the exit blur in panel 9 remains unexplained) or it’s an art error.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bisqwit View Post
    Nonetheless, the view with the half scorch mark on the floor is mirrored between panels 3 and 5 in the second part. In panel 3 (and 4 and 6), it is on the right side. In panel 5, it is on the left side. So either there is mirroring happening on (in which case the exit blur in panel 9 remains unexplained) or it’s an art error.
    I added some more clarification to my explanation, if that helps.

  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bisqwit View Post
    Nonetheless, the view with the half scorch mark on the floor is mirrored between panels 3 and 5 in the second part. In panel 3 (and 4 and 6), it is on the right side. In panel 5, it is on the left side. So either there is mirroring happening on (in which case the exit blur in panel 9 remains unexplained) or it’s an art error.
    Zooming in (240% on my screen), the mark looks about the same as everywhere else; it's just from an unusual angle. There's actually a very faint line visible that marks the line of the teleport spell. I don't think it's an exit blur. It does have a slightly different shape compared to the rest of the panels, though.
    Last edited by Darth Paul; 2021-01-22 at 06:57 PM.
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    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
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  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    I think some of you misunderstand the traps.

    Redcloak and Xykon and Oona know about the teleportation traps behind every door. They could have detected its magic, or Oona could have told them, because they're common knowledge among the bugbear town who lives from hunting in those dungeons.

    Team Evil is not in a “fake dungeon”. They're in one of the real dungeons where the teleportation traps lead them, with lots of “cool stuff to murder” aka “the nastiest monsters of the world”. These are the dungeons that Oona was talking about: “Hunt a little, tame a little. Wait, then monsters come back, start all over.” One of those dungeons also hides Kraagor's Gate.

    The Order bypassed the trap, and are now in a short tunnel that was originally behind the trap that has nothing interesting in it. No monsters, and definitely no Kraagor's Gate. The bugbear community, Xykon and Redcloak has already bypassed these traps a few times, saw the short uninteresting tunnels, and know that they have nothing interesting in them.
    I agree that this would be the smartest and most secure method of hiding the gate forSerini. However, I do not think that Serini is very smart (as others have noted re: her Journal). Perhaps Oona and the bugbears know about the traps but saw no reason to inform Redcloak and Xykon.

    Also, the Order finding that they are in a dead-end tunnel would not be very dramatic, and this is a universe where the laws of drama reign. Disabling the same trap on hundreds of tunnels seems rather tedious, and tedium isn't what Serini is all about either.

    My prediction is that all of the real tunnels (accessible only when their traps are disabled) lead to the same place: a very large room with many tunnels joining together, the Gate, and two or more Very Impressive Defenders.

    I also think they lucked out that Redcloak didn't notice the half burn mark on the way in (possibly it was shielded by Oona and the warg) and will probably notice in on the way out, kneel down and see the rune trap, and he or Xykon will then dispell it. So the Order has bought themselves a bit of time, but TE will be breathing down their necks soon enough.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    That doesn't really explain the floor suddenly changing colour though, or how Roy isn't able to return to the door while Blackwing can.

    plus the way Redcloak and the others vanish through the barrier makes it look like the Order are the ones in a different location while team evil is just walking through.


    idk, it's all super confusing and probably doesn't matter in the end. two different tunnels, that seems to be all that matters.


    My theory on the floor is that the teleporter/portal thing is also teleporting all the dust in the air and sunlight etc, plus generations of bugbears going in and out, thus discoloring the entrance and the "teleported to" dungeon equally. The tunnel the Order is in, then, wouldn't be discolored the same because nothing goes in there.

    If the portal/teleport is two way, it makes sense to me. If the portal is on, when you walk into the tunnel and past it, you get teleported. Then when you go to exit the tunnel, you walk through the portal again and get teleported again to the exit where you expect. So when Blackwing entered and exited, he was using the portal as intended.
    Meanwhile, Roy and the others bypassed it by temporarily disabling it. Now it's active again. So when Roy pokes his head in, the portal is active and takes him to the same dungeon Xykon and co are in, just on the other side of the invisible magic wall. In this case, that happens to be a dead end. To get out again, I expect the order would have to temporarily disable the portal again so they can pass through without being affected. (or find some other way out after exploring where they are)

    And to me, it looked like Team Evil was being affected by the magic rather than the other way around. But then, I also don't expect Rich to be trying to misdirect us here. I don't see much narrative point to specifically saying the opposite of what's really going on, but of course I could always be wrong.

  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    The "one-way teleport trap" is an oldie but a goodie among my group. I first used it in one of my dungeons back in the mid-1980s.

    Does that technically make it a century old?

    im starting to feel like the "trap" that Haley found was less of a "Trap" and more of a "Test". She didn't DISable it, she ENabled it, allowing the Order to travel through and be sent to the new location before it reset. It's a doorway that's designed to look like a trap, and only opens when someone attempts to disable it, when in reality it's completely harmless and doesn't do anything. That'd explain why Roy sees a dead end when he pokes his head through the barrier, he's seeing the real other side of it, with the barrier itself presenting as either side of the actual hallway.

    edit: Although, the floor is still different in the dead end too... not sure what that's about.


    Quote Originally Posted by Yirggzmb View Post
    And to me, it looked like Team Evil was being affected by the magic rather than the other way around. But then, I also don't expect Rich to be trying to misdirect us here. I don't see much narrative point to specifically saying the opposite of what's really going on, but of course I could always be wrong.
    i'm kind of seeing it like the whole "living person walks through a ghost and doesn't realize it" kind of thing. The Order are in a new location, but have a window to the starting point. the window is incorporeal and two-dimensional, so team evil simply walks through it. Since the window itself is only two-dimensional, anything that travels past it's threshold appears to vanish in thin air, as it's no longer visible from the window.
    Last edited by Draconi Redfir; 2021-01-22 at 07:38 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #129
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Weird, it seems like even the latest comic is hidden behind a divination effect on my end! When I'm on #1222, I can't see that there is another comic, and the next button does nothing, but going back one page to #1221 shows the link to #1223. Is that a bug, or a clever easter egg?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pearl jam View Post
    I think the divination shows the same view regardless of which side of the projection you view it from: the area leading from the door they all entered to the trap with the scorch mark.
    This makes sense, if you're Serini and know about the "real" dungeon, or find your way into it somehow like the Order, there is a huge advantage to being able to see the "fake" dungeon. They can watch the entrance from where they are, or could camp out in the "dead end" to wait for Team Evil to leave, maybe hitting them when they are at their weakest? I mean they'd see Team Evil leave either way, but camping out in the dead end gives a couple more rounds of warning.

    Note to self: Go to dead end, and look back, before bypassing the trap and leaving the "real" dungeon. You'll live longer...

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Also, floor color:

    Knowledge (Architecture) anyone?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    i'm kind of seeing it like the whole "living person walks through a ghost and doesn't realize it" kind of thing. The Order are in a new location, but have a window to the starting point. the window is incorporeal and two-dimensional, so team evil simply walks through it. Since the window itself is only two-dimensional, anything that travels past it's threshold appears to vanish in thin air, as it's no longer visible from the window.
    Admittedly, I'm also leaning towards "The Order's got it figured out: Team Evil went through the portal, not the Order" because of how each team has described the dungeon.

    Team Evil goes in, and when they exit they describe the place as complex, "with many twistings and turnings". Glad that no one had to draw that.

    Meanwhile, Roy looks at how many doors there are so close together, uses his Knowledge(architecture), and concludes that the only way each door could lead to a distinct dungeon is if each one is a straight hallway.

    So Team Evil being taken somewhere else makes more sense to me than the Order being taken somewhere else. Because if the actual tunnel behind the door is where Team Evil is, then both team's assessments can't be true. But if the actual tunnel behind the door is where the Order is, then both can be right.
    Last edited by Yirggzmb; 2021-01-22 at 07:54 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    I love how Belkar is essentially the audience.
    Agree, it's always a challenge for creators to explain what is happening in their world, so it helps to have the clueless character ask the questions for us.

  14. - Top - End - #134
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yirggzmb View Post
    Team Evil goes in, and when they exit they describe the place as complex, "with many twistings and turnings". Glad that no one had to draw that.

    Meanwhile, Roy looks at how many doors there are so close together, uses his Knowledge(architecture), and concludes that the only way each door could lead to a distinct dungeon is if each one is a straight hallway.

    So Team Evil being taken somewhere else makes more sense to me than the Order being taken somewhere else. Because if the actual tunnel behind the door is where Team Evil is, then both team's assessments can't be true. But if the actual tunnel behind the door is where the Order is, then both can be right.

    ohhhh, that's right, that does make sense. silly me, i had already theorized that the doors lead to different locations because of the description of the stone. "multi phasic" or "dimensional" or something long ago too.

    i guess the "Dead end" roy saw was what was really behind team evil and blackwing, rather then what was behind his own portal.

    the colour changing floor is still odd, but i guess the dust collection thing could explain that.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    1. it's good to see how much love Blackwing gets despite there being a whole thread about how he is a „mistake” with flat jokes;
    ...what?


    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    There's being terminally stupid, and there's being stupid enough to have your location holding the cosmic underpants of the universe up defeated by a literal cantrip. I'm not sure if even early-OotS Elan was that stupid.
    I'm not sure if there's a sweet spot where you're smart enough to (successfully) defend such a cosmically critical location and foolish enough to forget about detect magic.


    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    Well, I sure hope somebody picks up that phone.
    Because I called it!
    People having literally been calling this since last year.
    1. That's not saying much, it's January.
    2. Whoever owns that phone is really busy, let's not bother them.


    Quote Originally Posted by masonwheeler View Post
    Remember in 428, when Xykon pulled a shell game on the Azurites?

    Problem is, all this time everyone's been falling for the shell game... including the Monster in the Darkness. It's been attempting to sabotage Team Evil's progress by marking extra doors, but Xkyon knows how to run a shell game. Which means that he's bound to figure out what's going on sooner or later... and MitD has inadvertently made it so that moment will arrive sooner, rather than later.
    The thing about shell games is, there's a whole bunch of places the stone could be hiding—the Order only solved Xykon's so quickly because his undead dragon happened to be flying by within earshot. Figuring out that you're playing a shell game only tells you where the stone isn't.

    Moreover, the MitD accidentally provided perfect cover for a shell game. Assume that Team Evil marks off every door before MitD blows his cover; Team Evil will realize something's off, and will start trying to figure out what. Which are they more likely to suspect—that they've missed multiple teleports per day, or that something's wrong with the marks on the door, [url=https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1222.html]which they already suspect?[/irl]


    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    I remain unconvinced that the Order's theories are correct. It's possible but I'm not going to count on it.
    And what say you to the fact that they've gathered evidence supporting those theories?


    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    Team Evil is not in a “fake dungeon”. They're in one of the real dungeons where the teleportation traps lead them, with lots of “cool stuff to murder” aka “the nastiest monsters of the world”. These are the dungeons that Oona was talking about: “Hunt a little, tame a little. Wait, then monsters come back, start all over.” One of those dungeons also hides Kraagor's Gate.
    That last sentence is a baffling assertion. Why do you think that Serini is teleporting people to separate dungeons which contain the Gate? Remember, she's trying to stop people from finding it, and a teleportation trap which is so easy to miss doesn't make sense as an addition unless it's meant to make finding the Gate harder.


    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    That doesn't really explain the floor suddenly changing colour though, or how Roy isn't able to return to the door while Blackwing can.

    plus the way Redcloak and the others vanish through the barrier makes it look like the Order are the ones in a different location while team evil is just walking through.
    1. I assume Serini painted (or otherwise recolored) the stone outside the portal to match the place she portaled the tunnel to.
    2. Roy can't return to the door because he's on the wrong side of the portal.
    3. Team Evil looks like they vanished because they were visible, and then they weren't. The divination thing V mentioned is one-way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    The "one-way teleport trap" is an oldie but a goodie among my group. I first used it in one of my dungeons back in the mid-1980s.

    Does that technically make it a century old?
    ...I wasn't alive during the 1980's, but I'm pretty sure they were only 30-40 years ago, not a hundred?


    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    im starting to feel like the "trap" that Haley found was less of a "Trap" and more of a "Test". She didn't DISable it, she ENabled it, allowing the Order to travel through and be sent to the new location before it reset. It's a doorway that's designed to look like a trap, and only opens when someone attempts to disable it, when in reality it's completely harmless and doesn't do anything.
    Three big problems.
    1. Simplicity. Magical traps are something well-established in both D&D and this comic, but that kind of reverse trap—one that is disguised so well that even a high-level rogue can't detect the deception—isn't.
    2. I don't think it's possible to create something that looks like a functional trap, which can only be disabled one way, and that one way is secretly a switch to an invisible something-else. The middle clause is the biggest red flag; there are a thousand ways to skin a cat, but only one way to grow one.
    3. Various details point to something being up with the dungeons in this mountain. You know, like how there are too many doors in the wall for there to be an entire dungeon behind each, and how Roy specifically remarks on this. You don't have your characters point out something that doesn't make sense unless it's supposed to not make sense.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    I think the scorch mark on panel #18 is indeed an art error. If I understood the theory correctly, there should be no scorch marks whatsoever from that point of view. Half of the mark is on the floor next to the door, and the other half is on the floor where OotS is standing right now. In panel #18, we see the other two places: the dead end (which correctly shows no scorch marks) and the corridor Team Evil (and Blackwing) went through, where there is also no scorch mark (as seen on panel #14).

    edit: Also, notice the subtle teleportation effect behind Roy on panel #20, indicating Blackwing passing through the portal back to safety.
    Last edited by Nazzo, the 102nd; 2021-01-22 at 09:06 PM. Reason: wrong panel number, added blackwing goiing out
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nazzo, the 102nd View Post
    I think the scorch mark on panel #18 is indeed an art error. If I understood the theory correctly, there should be no scorch marks whatsoever from that point of view. Half of the mark is on the floor next to the door, and the other half is on the floor where OotS is standing right now. In panel #18, we see the other two places: the dead end (which correctly shows no scorch marks) and the corridor Team Evil (and Blackwing) went through, where there is also no scorch mark (as seen on panel #14).

    edit: Also, notice the subtle teleportation effect behind Roy on panel #20, indicating Blackwing passing through the portal back to safety.
    And there wouldn't be because...? If you're hiding in the dead end, you want to see out to the door. Blackwing isn't in Team Evil's teleported dungeon in that panel. He's back out at the front entrance, having immediately left the corridor Team Evil was in. The scorch mark not being there would be an error. The teleportation mark behind Roy is because Roy stuck his head through the portal.
    Last edited by WanderingMist; 2021-01-22 at 10:01 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    For those claiming that Redcloak should have noticed the trap with Detect Magic by now: Xykon was willing to ditch the rest of Team Evil to start down the dungeon after waiting for maybe 1 round. Do you really think he would have allowed Redcloak to spend 3 rounds staring at an area to figure out what auras exist, then move on a bit, then repeat? Or would he have walked straight through the Detect Magic cone and messed up the aura count with his own dozen or so auras from magic items and active spells?

    Detect Magic is a cantrip, yes, but it's an unwieldy cantrip that is generally only useful if you have a specific thing you're trying to investigate, e.g., V scanning the runes that Haley previously spotted (and here I will voice my support of the idea that the theme of Serini's dungeon is teamwork). It is not good for a general sweep of a dungeon, especially since you have to dismiss it (stop concentrating on it) to take any action. This is why Arcane Sight exists, but that's not on Redcloak's spell list, and it probably isn't on Xykon's either.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by WanderingMist View Post
    And there wouldn't be because...? If you're hiding in the dead end, you want to see out to the door. Blackwing isn't in Team Evil's teleported dungeon in that panel. He's back out at the front entrance, having immediately left the corridor Team Evil was in. The scorch mark not being there would be an error. The teleportation mark behind Roy is because Roy stuck his head through the portal.
    Because to me he is in the corridor that Team Evil teleported to. I don't think Blackwing is back at the entrance before the portal, precisely because there is that white glow in panel #20. That glow only happens when someone is effectively touching or going through the portal, there is no "after glow". Roy is clearly back, not touching it at all. And there is also panel #19, with no white glow at all, when Roy has already returned.

    I'm positive that this white glow on panel #20 is caused by Blackwing crossing the portal back to the door and outside the dungeon.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    I'm pretty sure that's the case. A better question is whether disarming the trap permanently (instead of bypassing it) would trap Team Evil in the tunnel they entered or not.
    Even if it would block the only intended exit, they're high level spellcasters and can just teleport out on their own power as soon as they realized that there's somehow no way out.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    I just have a theory, so I'll try to explain this as well and as simply as I can...

    Physical reality:
    - REAL DOOR -----> REAL DUNGEON
    - DEAD END -----> FAKE DUNGEON

    The portal transports things and vision:
    - REAL DOOR --||--> FAKE DUNGEON
    - REAL DOOR <--||-- FAKE DUNGEON

    Haley disabled the portal so the party went:
    - REAL DOOR -----> REAL DUNGEON

    From REAL DUNGEON, they still see the REAL DOOR, which means: The back side of the portal has no scrying effect (i.e. It's just a transparent screen).

    Roy crosses the re-activated portal and went:
    - DEAD END <--||-- REAL DUNGEON

    Now we're on the back side of the portal on the FAKE plane. If the transparent screen rule still applies, then from the DEAD END looking through the (should be transparent) portal, we should see the FAKE DUNGEON. Indeed, Roy saw Blackwing's back. I made a handy diagram of this moment...



    Now onto the issue with the scorch mark on #18. We know that the explosion happened on the REAL plane, because we saw the scorch mark both on the REAL DOOR side (before and after the portal reactivated) and the REAL DUNGEON side (where party is now). We also know that the explosion did NOT happen on the FAKE plane because we do not see the scorch mark on the DEAD END side (when Roy poked through) or the FAKE DUNGEON side (when Blackwing flew through the portal after Xykon). And yet, on #18, we can see the scorch mark below Blackwing even though there was no scorch mark below BW in the previous panel.

    Assuming that this was not an error, maybe this is a mixed reality where both the REAL DUNGEON and the FAKE DUNGEON are combined? That you need to do something in both the REAL and FAKE dungeons, then enter the mixed reality from the DEAD END to find the Gate?

  22. - Top - End - #142
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    I agree with what everyone's been saying; either scorch mark you see from the dead end is an error or things don't work like we think they do. To prove it (and to help people who are still struggling) I put together a visual demonstration of how the portal works (show spoilers to see the images):

    Spoiler
    Show
    The two rooms are set up like this:

    A, B, C, and D are four different observers. The colored lines on either side of the portal show where you will travel to when you enter the portal from that direction. The black side transmits images (via the scrying spell), and the red side does not. The yellow splotch represents the scorch mark that was made when the portals were "off", the green box is an object traveling through the black side, and the blue box is an object traveling through the red side.


    What person A would see:

    We see in the comic that this is true; Person B and the different floor color cannot be seen, the scorch mark is only on the door-side of the line, and since TE never figured it out, we can infer that people didn't disappear from sight or appear cut off upon entering the portal from A's point of view (I highly doubt they were all in a row every time they entered a dungeon).


    What person B would see:

    This was observed in the previous strip; the floor is a different color on the far side of the line, people coming in from the door are visible, but anything that crosses the line (from either direction) appears to get cut off.


    What person C should see:

    This is almost what we see; Roy's torso is invisible past the line, he can see Blackwing (who's in person D's spot in the panel), and the floor is the same color as it is by the door. The only difference is that he can see the scorch-mark on Blackwing's side. Since Blackwing can't see the scorch-mark on that side, then we know that if the portal is not transmitting images in this direction, the scorch-mark is an error. If, however, the portal is transmitting images from this direction, then person C should be seeing this:

    Everything except the scorch mark (and the dead end) is wrong; he should see everything on the real-dungeon side of the room, he shouldn't appear to be cut off, and Blackwing shouldn't be visible. But the dead end and the way the scorch mark is cut off would be correct.


    And just for completeness' sake, what person D would see:

    Again, we can observe that when Blackwing crosses the line, this is what he sees.


    Hopefully Rich either corrects that panel, or blows our minds by revealing that it doesn't work like we were thinking at all! Also, I hope this helps clarify things for everyone who was struggling to wrap their heads around this concept.
    Last edited by Someone101; 2021-01-22 at 11:02 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #143
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Just wanted to point out, the scorch mark is actually from Haley's rat skull. It seems that both sides of the actual trap were scorched as a result of whatever she did to keep it from teleporting them. Notice that the mark is absent in panel 8, but shows up in panel 10.

    EDIT: To clarify, I mean that the scorch was made to keep the trap from re-triggering long enough for people to cross -- so no teleportation would be possible to displace the scorching.
    Last edited by Just Helping; 2021-01-23 at 02:15 AM.

  24. - Top - End - #144
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Source? This sounds like you're making an assumption that is the exact opposite of what we've been shown.
    It's all assumptions, yes. Perhaps the comic will later show that I'm wrong. I'm basing it on that Xykon is an epic lich sorcerer who has boasted about his racial bonuses to perception checks, Redcloak is pretty good understanding magic too, they figured out how to activate the rune in Dorukan's dungeon, and there's a whole community of bugbears who hunt in the dungeons, so it would be pretty surprising if all of them missed the traps. But I don't see how any of this is the opposite of what we've been shown.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    That last sentence is a baffling assertion. Why do you think that Serini is teleporting people to separate dungeons which contain the Gate? Remember, she's trying to stop people from finding it, and a teleportation trap which is so easy to miss doesn't make sense as an addition unless it's meant to make finding the Gate harder.
    Firstly, probably only one of those dungeons contain the gate. You still have to find which one it is, and then get past the mighty guardian monsters.

    Secondly, there seems to be some narrative force or rule so that dungeon makers can't make an impossible dungeon. There has to be some path to the end prize of the dungeon. You see this in every story or video game with dungeons. It's not easy to give an in-universe reason for this. You can say that the Order of the Scribble themselves need to get to the Gates to occasionally patch up the rifts before they get serious, but this doesn't really explain everything. Dorukan can build magical doors that only open if three people with a pure heart touch three signs simultaneously, and Xykon can't just break the doors down with a big axe, but he couldn't just build magical doors that never open. Girard can build a pyramid with traps covered by illusions, but he can't just build a pyramid where the path to the Gate is completely blocked off by solid rock. Serini can bring the mightiest monsters, but he has to leave some theoretical way for strong enough villains to get in.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    3. Various details point to something being up with the dungeons in this mountain. You know, like how there are too many doors in the wall for there to be an entire dungeon behind each, and how Roy specifically remarks on this.
    Oh yeah, I forgot about Roy's remark in #1203 fifth panel. That said, our explanation for that before #1222 was “built up out of multidimensional stone” (#1041 third panel).

  25. - Top - End - #145
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    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by WanderingMist View Post
    Detect Magic is a 1st level spell, isn't it?
    In 5e, it is. In 3.5e, it's a cantrip.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Actually finishing a seven-book series of fantasy novels is a better dig at ASOIAF than any in-strip parody could be.

  26. - Top - End - #146
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    And what say you to the fact that they've gathered evidence supporting those theories?
    That there are other theories that are at least as consistent with the evidence we've seen so far. My preferred theory is that there are several sections of corridors and rooms in the multidimensional stone, and that the "trap" (1) changes how they're connected, and (2) in the sections that the Order are in, projects illusions/images of the contents of the other sections. There's no teleporting involved anywhere in this setup; among other things, it's likely to be detected. No portals, either.

    When the "trap" was tampered with, the spatial connection changed much more quickly than the blast to the osquip skull caused the scorching on the floor. Flash! followed by the puff of smoke. As a result, what got marked up is the corridor right by the doorway, and the floor where the Order are now, which was temporarily connected to that corridor but isn't any longer.

    We know that the area is built of "multidimensional stone"; all that we know for sure about the properties of "multidimensional stone" is that it prevents ghostform transit. We know that something weird is going on in terms of things moving from one place to another. I'm suggesting that the simplest explanation is that the weird moving-from-place-to-place stuff is another effect tied to the multidimensional properties of the stone.

  27. - Top - End - #147
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    danielxcutter's Avatar

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Linneris View Post
    In 5e, it is. In 3.5e, it's a cantrip.
    Technically a few prestige classes end up getting it as a 1st-level spell, but yeah.
    Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.

    Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

  28. - Top - End - #148
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    I think I'm starting to understand this puzzle. This is the part where someone comes in and takes out half of the doors and tells you to pick one again.
    Last edited by ebarde; 2021-01-23 at 02:11 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #149
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    It's all assumptions, yes. Perhaps the comic will later show that I'm wrong. I'm basing it on that Xykon is an epic lich sorcerer who has boasted about his racial bonuses to perception checks, Redcloak is pretty good understanding magic too, they figured out how to activate the rune in Dorukan's dungeon, and there's a whole community of bugbears who hunt in the dungeons, so it would be pretty surprising if all of them missed the traps. But I don't see how any of this is the opposite of what we've been shown.
    People have made the point that traps can't be detected by anyone but thieves, and while you may assume "it would be pretty surprising if all of them missed the traps," it's just as plausible at least to assume "it would be pretty surprising if any of the bugbears were high-level enough to detect and successfully disarm a trap." As far as Team Evil goes, if they don't have anyone who can detect a trap, then they can't detect it. And if they have no reason to think there's any trap there, there's no reason for them to burn a Detect Magic at the entrance of every dungeon. (Let alone any of the other reasons people have suggested they wouldn't spend time doing that.)

    It makes far more sense that, based on how the dungeon appears to be laid out-- as Roy mentioned, there's no way for all of those doors to have the kind of "visually complex" "twistings and turnings" Team Evil has encountered-- and assuming the gate location is correct (since all of the gate locations in Serini's diary have been correct, and Kraagor's statue is right there, this seems reasonable)-- the trap teleports anyone who crosses it to a wild-goose-chase dungeon. Your thesis requires assuming the opposite, that disabling the trap teleports the Order but not Team Evil. Either that or it requires assuming Serini set up the gate so not disabling the trap was the only way to get to the gate, which just doesn't make sense.

  30. - Top - End - #150
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    I'm a little confused by the other-sides of the trap, but I assume that it doesn't care which direction you walk in from, it'll spit you out on the 'other' channel when you walk through it. If you can bypass it on the way in you can bypass it on the way out! I'm dying to see what's actually DOWN the corridor, which we have scrupulously not been shown.

    I wonder, considering that the barbarian in question was a dwarf, if Durkon's stone cunning is going to be a vital piece of the puzzle too, something that Redcloak and Xykon wouldn't likely have access to. If they *had* crossed the trap, would Durkon have instantly known that they weren't where they were supposed to be?

    Also, Redcloak used true seeing, but there isn't an ILLUSION there, it's a DIVINATION that shows you where you're going, so true seeing wouldn't bypass it. The confidence of having the true seeing spell available and up is probably what made them skip the cantrips. Redcloak even says "Scanning for illusions," but you don't need an illusion to fool someone when you can have the truth fool them instead.

    Mechanically, could the magical trap function as a sort of magical item, which can't be destroyed by a dispelling?

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