OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

[Metastachydium]

...what?

I'm not the one who made it, but it's there.

[hungrycrow]

It's all assumptions, yes. Perhaps the comic will later show that I'm wrong. I'm basing it on that Xykon is an epic lich sorcerer who has boasted about his racial bonuses to perception checks, Redcloak is pretty good understanding magic too, they figured out how to activate the rune in Dorukan's dungeon, and there's a whole community of bugbears who hunt in the dungeons, so it would be pretty surprising if all of them missed the traps. But I don't see how any of this is the opposite of what we've been shown.

If they knew about the trap, they would certainly have noticed the half scorch mark on the ground and realized where the order went.

[The Pilgrim]

That doesn't really explain the floor suddenly changing colour though, or how Roy isn't able to return to the door while Blackwing can.

Why, both are teleported exactly the same way. Both are teleported from Dungeon (A) to Dungeon (B), and then from Dungeon (B) to Dungeon (A). But as they enter the portal from opposite sides, they logically end in different sides of the portal.

Blackwing enters the portal:
-----------
D b-> @ R (DUNGEON A)
-----------
-----------
| @-> b (DUNGEON B)
-----------

Roy enters the portal:
-----------
D @ <-R (DUNGEON A)
-----------
-----------
| R <-@ b (DUNGEON B)
-----------

Roy goes back:
-----------
| R-> @ b (DUNGEON B)
-----------
-----------
D @-> R (DUNGEON A)
-----------

Blackwing goes back:
-----------
| @ <-b (DUNGEON B)
-----------
-----------
D b <-@ R (DUNGEON A)
-----------

D= Door
@ = Portal
R = Roy
b = Blackwing
-> = direction of movement
| = Dead End
--- = Cave walls

[Corneel]

So to simplify, the most plausible situation for this is:

Physically the Door end (E_A) connects to the Mystery Tunnel (T_A), where the order are and the Dead End E_B connects to the Monster Tunnel (T_B) Team Evil entered.

There are two magical effects
- The first is the "switch" which is some kind of teleportation trap. When the switch is active it connects E_A to T_B and E_B to T_A. Normally the switch is active. If the switch is dis-activated, then we go back to the physical connections. (E_A to T_A and E_B to T_B)
- The second is the "cover". This is some kind of Divination spell (Clairvoyance-like) that makes it that from E_A you look into T_B and vice versa.

Dis-activating the switch does not dis-activate the cover, which remains in place. This explains why we see people "disappearing" even if they step in to T_A from E_A, which are physically connected, when the switch is dis-activated.

Now this is the situation for this door.

The question now is how this works for multiple doors. Is there a set of A & B behind each door, or does each door only have a fixed A and do the effects cycle through different B tunnels, or do multiple doors share a B (or even all doors share a B and the randomising of monster lairs happens further down the line).

[Lex]

I'm still a bit bothered by the fact that apparently nobody never questioned the impossible geometry of the dungeon nor managed to find a trap that Haley (who hasn't even her search skill maxed) discovered at her first try (I know about the whole only rogues can find magical traps, but I find equally disappointing that there apparently isn't a single rogue in the village nor anyone bothered casting the Find traps spell, which is level 2 for clerics), so part of me still hopes that the real dungeon that leads to the gate is the one you enter through teleport and Team Evil is actually aware of the trap.
Still, I don't think Rich would have gone to such lenght in showing and explaining how the dungeon works if there isn't going something significant in the tunnel the Order is, so I guess they are going to find either the gate or someone/something else crucial to the story.

[b_jonas]

People have made the point that traps can't be detected by anyone but thieves, and while you may assume "it would be pretty surprising if all of them missed the traps," it's just as plausible at least to assume "it would be pretty surprising if any of the bugbears were high-level enough to detect and successfully disarm a trap." As far as Team Evil goes, if they don't have anyone who can detect a trap, then they can't detect it. And if they have no reason to think there's any trap there, there's no reason for them to burn a Detect Magic at the entrance of every dungeon.

and assuming the gate location is correct (since all of the gate locations in Serini's diary have been correct, and Kraagor's statue is right there, this seems reasonable)

You do have a valid point about how only rogues are any good at disabling traps. But does that apply to detecting traps too? I assumed that both Xykon and Redcloak would be able to detect that there's a trap here, beacuse Xykon can see through illusions and Redcloak just cast True seeing, so they'd notice that the scrying effect projects a different dungeon than what they enter. Perhaps they might not be able to disarm the trap, at least not as easily as Haley, but they wouldn't just never notice it. And I did assume that every door has the same kind of trap, simply because Roy suspects that in #1219.

But as for Serini's diary, I don't think that's an obstacle. The diary won't give a precise enough location to distinguish between the hidden dungeons where the teleport trap leads and the entrance, it certainly won't tell which door or hidden dungeon is the correct one. In fact the diary will probably not even point to the hidden dungeons, but to the entrances that let you teleport in, because that's how you give useful guidance. Nobody other than Ganonron could Epic teleport directly into the hidden dungeons from just a description.

[hamishspence]

There is Wish - but it costs XP:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm

Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

[danielxcutter]

You do have a valid point about how only rogues are any good at disabling traps. But does that apply to detecting traps too? I assumed that both Xykon and Redcloak would be able to detect that there's a trap here, beacuse Xykon can see through illusions and Redcloak just cast True seeing, so they'd notice that the scrying effect projects a different dungeon than what they enter. Perhaps they might not be able to disarm the trap, at least not as easily as Haley, but they wouldn't just never notice it. And I did assume that every door has the same kind of trap, simply because Roy suspects that in #1219.

But as for Serini's diary, I don't think that's an obstacle. The diary won't give a precise enough location to distinguish between the hidden dungeons where the teleport trap leads and the entrance, it certainly won't tell which door or hidden dungeon is the correct one. In fact the diary will probably not even point to the hidden dungeons, but to the entrances that let you teleport in, because that's how you give useful guidance. Nobody other than Ganonron could Epic teleport directly into the hidden dungeons from just a description.

Why would Xykon be able to see through illusions?

Also, this trap involves no illusions whatsoever; V's only detecting conjuration and divination magic. And rogues are also the only (core) class that's any good at detecting traps as well; that's the Search skill.

[Daibhid C]

You do have a valid point about how only rogues are any good at disabling traps. But does that apply to detecting traps too? I assumed that both Xykon and Redcloak would be able to detect that there's a trap here, beacuse Xykon can see through illusions and Redcloak just cast True seeing, so they'd notice that the scrying effect projects a different dungeon than what they enter. Perhaps they might not be able to disarm the trap, at least not as easily as Haley, but they wouldn't just never notice it. And I did assume that every door has the same kind of trap, simply because Roy suspects that in #1219.

The thing is, it's not an illusion. What they're seeing is where they're going; it's just not where they think they're going. The description of true seeing says:

The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces).

I don't think that means that if you're looking directly into a permenant teleport portal you can tell it's a permenant teleport portal, or can see "through" it to what's really on the other side. You see what's "really there", and what's really there is the portal and the place the portal leads to.

[b_jonas]

Vaarsuvius says in the fifth panel “Any observer remaining on the opposite side of the line would still percieve those who had passed before them – thus masking that they had already been rerouted.” I assumed that this is similar to an illusion effect enough that it would automatically not be fooled: he would see the projected image, but would know that it's a scrying image, not really behind the trap. I might be wrong though, perhaps this is something where being undead and the True seeing spell doesn't help. #1219 shows that Roy can't see the thin line even after Haley points it out, which weakly hints that Haley can only detect the trap because he's a rogue.

[danielxcutter]

Vaarsuvius says in the fifth panel “Any observer remaining on the opposite side of the line would still percieve those who had passed before them – thus masking that they had already been rerouted.” I assumed that this is similar to an illusion effect enough that it would automatically not be fooled: he would see the projected image, but would know that it's a scrying image, not really behind the trap. I might be wrong though, perhaps this is something where being undead and the True seeing spell doesn't help. #1219 shows that Roy can't see the thin line even after Haley points it out, which weakly hints that Haley can only detect the trap because he's a rogue.

Being undead has nothing whatsoever to do with this. I'm guessing you're confusing that with undead being immune to mind-affecting spells.

And True Seeing doesn't work on that either -

You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.

True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means. In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjunction with clairaudience/clairvoyance.

This trap is not hiding a door, does not use magical darkness, is not making things invisible, using illusions, polymorphing, changing, or transmuting anything, or involved with the Ethereal Plane so it'd do jack.

Oh, and mostly you can't really find traps without having levels in Rogue. There's the Find Traps spell, but that's about it for Core and the bonus is pretty bleh for someone who doesn't already have at least a decent Search modifier. Remember, Haley is a very high level Rogue at this point and has a decent Int modifier.

[Ghosty]

I think I'm starting to understand this puzzle. This is the part where someone comes in and takes out half of the doors and tells you to pick one again.

Not that kind of problem. (Or campaign, though Roy's Sword, and all of the parts to Durkon's Hammer, come close)

I will love it if one of the Invisible Duo asks them whether they'd like to stand pat, or choose what's behind Door #2 though. I mean, they're already wearing silly costumes....

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Ghosty]

...This trap is not hiding a door, does not use magical darkness, is not making things invisible, using illusions, polymorphing, changing, or transmuting anything, or involved with the Ethereal Plane so it'd do jack.

Oh, and mostly you can't really find traps without having levels in Rogue. There's the Find Traps spell, but that's about it for Core and the bonus is pretty bleh for someone who doesn't already have at least a decent Search modifier. Remember, Haley is a very high level Rogue at this point and has a decent Int modifier.

This. Xykon probably does have a high Search skill. Let's say he does. Unless he's a Rogue, it doesn't help him at all to see this particular trap.
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm and scroll down to the Magic Traps section.

RC can cast Find Traps, and therefore can Search like a Rogue for the spell's duration, but his Search skill is likely blah. The Bugbear Village likely has Rogues living within it, as Rogue is the favored class of their race. But they likely don't have high-level Rogues, and therefore don't likely have high Search skill. (Alternate theory: They do know about the teleport trap, but are working in concert with the Invisible Duo to hide that.)

Who knows? Maybe Xykon has known about it all along? But since he's having the most fun of his unlife, killing things, taking their stuff, and not thinking any deeper than that---exactly like the type of D&D players that The Giant has been satirizing and criticizing from the beginning of this entire strip---he hasn't bothered to point it out to RC.

[danielxcutter]

This. Xykon probably does have a high Search skill. Let's say he does. Unless he's a Rogue, it doesn't help him at all to see this particular trap.
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm and scroll down to the Magic Traps section.

Nitpick: Xykon probably has a horrible Search bonus. It's not a class skill and his Int bonus probably isn't that high even with age and racial bonuses.[/QUOTE]

[Shining Wrath]

Maybe ... just maybe ... figuring out the trap doesn't lead you to the Gate, but it does get you closer.

Hypothesis

1. Triggering the teleport trap leads you somewhere that is not very close to the Gate, physically. That's how all those doors can have twisty complex dungeons behind them
2. When your Rogue figures out the trap is there and bypasses it (or other methods work, like randomly casting Dispel Magic), you get to explore inside Kragor's Tomb
3. However, exploring inside Kragor's Tomb still won't lead you all the way to the Gate
4. The Gate is inside a chamber of the Dimensional Stone with no doors. To reach it, you have to guess where it is, and dig the last N feet, for medium-sized N (20? 50? something like that)

Why? Because Kragor was a dwarf fighter. And what are dwarves known for? Mining.

Serini's dungeon design, then, pays homage to teamwork (you need a Rogue or a spellcaster to even get near the Gate), Strength (you must fight large monsters on the way), and dwarves (at the end, you need a pickaxe).

[Xlsfd]

I think the chances of the Order being in the corridor that leads to the gate went up considerably. After all, since Kraagor valued strength, what would be a better display of strength than having to force your way through solid stone to reach the gate?

[BriarHobbit]

I enjoyed #1223 quite a bit. It's nice to see Blackwing have the good sense to get out of there quickly. The dynamic between Roy, V, and Blackwing is quite interesting. Roy, as leader, has no problem giving directions to members of the team. V. apparently does not like anyone else giving his familiar orders. We will see how that resolves itself.

The magic transporters are very sophisticated magic. You can't just hire a rent-a-mage to cast that kind of magic, especially for so many tunnels. I am suspecting a ring of three wishes. I suspect that this is just the first line of defense of the tomb.

[danielxcutter]

I enjoyed #1223 quite a bit. It's nice to see Blackwing have the good sense to get out of there quickly. The dynamic between Roy, V, and Blackwing is quite interesting. Roy, as leader, has no problem giving directions to members of the team. V. apparently does not like anyone else giving his familiar orders. We will see how that resolves itself.

The magic transporters are very sophisticated magic. You can't just hire a rent-a-mage to cast that kind of magic, especially for so many tunnels. I am suspecting a ring of three wishes. I suspect that this is just the first line of defense of the tomb.

I'm personally betting on her getting help from the party casters. The main conflict was mostly Soon and the arcanists; since she lacked a city to help or epic magic she may not even have needed to go behind Soon's back.

[The Pilgrim]

Why? Because Kragor was a dwarf fighter. And what are dwarves known for? Mining.

Dwarves are known for their Stonecunning sense. It's a racial trait.

So there is merit in your idea that the path to the Gate is concealed behind a stone wall, apparently the same as the cave walls, that only a Dwarf would perceive. No magic, no true seeing, no detect traps, no detect secret doors, would help you. Only the stonecunning sense of a Dwarf would perceive that the stone is weaker at a certain spot.

Expanding on my previous suggestion, my take is that:

1) Evey door has a portal trap that leads you to an specific dungeon populated by mosters somewere else.

2) If you disable the trap, you end up in a dead-end corridor. Only one of the doors leads to a corridor containing a fake wall along it that connects with Kraagor's Tomb. Or maybe all doors are connected by a network of tunnels, with the fake wall somewere along the tunnel system.

3) The Bugbears may be aware of the portal traps, but as they lead to empty tunnels, they aren't interested in them. They are interested in getting into the monster-populated dungeons.

4) Team Evil may be aware of the existence of the portal traps. But as they lead to nowere, they assume the Gate will be accesed through one of the dungeons they get teleported to.

[hungrycrow]

Another issue with Team Evil knowing about the portals: don't they have the coordinates of the gate? If the portal dungeons are far enough away, they could just figure out which matches the coordinates instead of slogging through each one.

[Mad Humanist]

Can we conclude from all this detective analysis on the recent strips, that the Serini panel in 277 is something of a misdirection. Serini was not organizing the capturing of monsters but rather engaging in a massive project of architecture and high-level magic. Presumably that panel is what she told the other scribblers.

[Rogar Demonblud]

It isn't even that. It's what Shojo says his father said that Soon said that Ms Toormuck said.

[Ironsmith]

Dwarves are known for their Stonecunning sense. It's a racial trait.

So there is merit in your idea that the path to the Gate is concealed behind a stone wall, apparently the same as the cave walls, that only a Dwarf would perceive. No magic, no true seeing, no detect traps, no detect secret doors, would help you. Only the stonecunning sense of a Dwarf would perceive that the stone is weaker at a certain spot.

I'm not entirely sold on the "dig the rest of the way" notion. Every other gate had a route that was easily bypassed by the guards, presumably to perform any magical maintenance that might be needed. Dismantling and replacing a whole wall, particularly one that's meant to blend seamlessly in with the cave wall without the use of illusions or a master craftsman on call, is somewhat impractical.

Plus, from a security standpoint, there's no reason to build a layer that's specifically dwarf-permeable. The defenses would be designed so that Sereni and any assistants she had could get through, while outsiders could not. Sereni doesn't have any stonecunning ability, and to my recollection, doesn't have any dwarves working for her. The only upshot of that particular defense would be that it's hard to detect and penetrate in general... which admittedly is still a big upshot, but more coincidentally aligned with the specialties of dwarves than intentional.

[Darth Paul]

...I wasn't alive during the 1980's, but I'm pretty sure they were only 30-40 years ago, not a hundred?

True, but the 80s were in the last century, plus, I feel old lately. It's the march of technology, I guess.

[Kantaki]

Another issue with Team Evil knowing about the portals: don't they have the coordinates of the gate? If the portal dungeons are far enough away, they could just figure out which matches the coordinates instead of slogging through each one.

They have the coordinates of the general location of Kraagor's Gate/Monster Hollow.
I doubt they're precise enough to pinpoint the exact location of the Rift.
Especially if it's buried somewhere under all that rock.

Depending how accurate Serini was in her diary of course, but since Team Evil teleported next to Girard's pyramid and not right next to the actual Gate they probably only have the equivalent of "It's in Manhattan"*. Helpful to narrow it down, but not enough to pop up right next to it.

*Okay, maybe not quite that bad.

[bunsen_h]

I'm still a bit bothered by the fact that apparently nobody never questioned the impossible geometry of the dungeon nor managed to find a trap that Haley (who hasn't even her search skill maxed) discovered at her first try (I know about the whole only rogues can find magical traps, but I find equally disappointing that there apparently isn't a single rogue in the village nor anyone bothered casting the Find traps spell, which is level 2 for clerics), so part of me still hopes that the real dungeon that leads to the gate is the one you enter through teleport and Team Evil is actually aware of the trap.

It's not physically impossible even in "normal" geometry, if the doors lead to long corridors which spread out from the cliff face, and/or to downward ramps or stairs which put the dungeons deep below. At this point, we can skip the jokes about going up or down levels.

[hungrycrow]

They have the coordinates of the general location of Kraagor's Gate/Monster Hollow.
I doubt they're precise enough to pinpoint the exact location of the Rift.
Especially if it's buried somewhere under all that rock.

Depending how accurate Serini was in her diary of course, but since Team Evil teleported next to Girard's pyramid and not right next to the actual Gate they probably only have the equivalent of "It's in Manhattan"*. Helpful to narrow it down, but not enough to pop up right next to it.

*Okay, maybe not quite that bad.

Teleporting right outside the pyramid was actually pretty accurate. The coordinates that Girard gave to Soon were also accurate enough that he assumed Soon would trip over his secret message. So the area covered by the coordinates has to be significantly smaller than a city.
I'm kind of guessing here, but I think the teleport traps go farther than a few hundred feet. I guess the dungeons could be layered on top of each other below the same coordinates, but I think it's more likely they're spread far apart.

[Argis13]

In the panel just above the last one, you can see the aura where Blackwing is preemptively getting the heck out of there behind Belkar's head.

Gotta love the Giant's attention to detail.

[toapat]

Serini wouldn't want the Gate to be that easy to find. (And for that matter, neither would Elan. Or Rich.)

if Sirini was truly pragmatic, Monster Hollow would have no way to connect to the gate, and the gate is merely embedded several hundred feet under rock.