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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    I love how Belkar is essentially the audience.
    Belkar has become the Everyman Audience Surrogate.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BarakDeathBlade View Post
    Two panels after the one with Roy's head, Roy and Belkar are talking and there's a white splash behind them on the portal at the left edge of the panel. It was off panel enough that the WONNNH!! was not visible. But it set up the last panel joke.
    This. Also, notice the white line on the wall. The portal is being used at that very moment. Notice how the line that marks where the portal is turns white whenever someone crosses it.

    In short: Blackwing crosses the portal back to the door on panel 20. Not before that.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    So, Team Evil presumably doesn't know about the teleportation trap...

    Spoiler: Start of Darkness reference
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    Too bad someone killed the party's rogue, Redcloak.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I think it's as simple as "you're interpreting it wrong".

    As I already said earlier in the thread, and likely will be several times more, this trap is not hiding a door, does not use magical darkness, is not making things invisible, using illusions, polymorphing, changing, or transmuting anything, or involved with the Ethereal Plane. Therefore, True Seeing does nothing.
    Ah. You are correct. Thank you.

    Looking carefully at the 3e spell wording, True Seeing confers no specific ability to Detect Magic. It will show things that are altered by magic or hidden by magic. In fact, it is not even a benefit for finding most traps, magical or mundane.

    So the answer is "I am interpreting it wrong", as you said.

    Haley has a sky high Spot and Search, and found the "trap". Redcloak is relying on True Seeing, but did not bother with Detect Magic, and sees nothing. Detect Magic would presumably reveal something is there that might be worth further investigation. Redcloak has been using True Seeing, and, nobody having been blown up at the foyer in the last 100+ tunnels, saw no reason to alter his tactics.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ORione View Post
    So, Team Evil presumably doesn't know about the teleportation trap...

    Spoiler: Start of Darkness reference
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    Too bad someone killed the party's rogue, Redcloak.
    Spoiler: SoD
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    Well, he wouldn't be all too eager to help anyway, and as a frail old man, he'd be expected die to the first critter they run into, so it isn't even a given that they would bring him along.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    I'm still trying to figure out what this "art error" is that everyone is talking about.

    Other than the floor in panel 18 being a little darker than it should be, I'm not seeing a problem. The floor in panel 1 is also darker than it should be, so this is an inconsistency or an issue of light or shading, not an error.
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    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ORione View Post
    So, Team Evil presumably doesn't know about the teleportation trap...

    Spoiler: Start of Darkness reference
    Show
    Too bad someone killed the party's rogue, Redcloak.
    Spoiler: SoD
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    Now I wonder if pointing out this irony is how main comic readers will be brought up to speed on Right-eye.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    I'm still trying to figure out what this "art error" is that everyone is talking about.

    Other than the floor in panel 18 being a little darker than it should be, I'm not seeing a problem. The floor in panel 1 is also darker than it should be, so this is an inconsistency or an issue of light or shading, not an error.
    I think they're talking about the half of the scorch mark being visible in the divination in that panel, when it's not actually there when you look at the panel of Blackwing going through

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    I'm still trying to figure out what this "art error" is that everyone is talking about.

    Other than the floor in panel 18 being a little darker than it should be, I'm not seeing a problem. The floor in panel 1 is also darker than it should be, so this is an inconsistency or an issue of light or shading, not an error.
    It's the scorch mark on the floor. It shouldn't be there. If we are correct in our interpretation of how the portals work, then panel 18 is just another angle of panel 14. And on 14 the scorch mark is not there (on Blackwing's side of the portal).

    Edit: Ninja'd.
    Last edited by Nazzo, the 102nd; 2021-01-24 at 04:16 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    I think it's much simpler. The floor color is the key. That means:

    - Team Xykon is actually just walking into yet another monster tunnel.

    - The Order is being teleported to Somewhere Else, likely a tunnel leading to the portal.

    - The teleportation activates conditionally, likely at least the condition of alignment, which explains why Blackwing, being an unaligned animal doesn't trigger the condition but the Order does. Probably with a timer to accomodate company with an alternative alignment.

    This means that the gate tunnel isn't accidentally accessible to any random adventurer with Detect Magic and Dispel Magic. If the effects are dispelled, the tunnel remains where it is, and the gate too, likely hidden somewhere underground. The teleportation effect is just a convenient service access.

    The illusion is just an unconditional one that crosswires the sensory data when observing through the portal.

    It also only requires a *single* teleport/illusion combo, instead of one for every tunnel, hundreds or thousands.


    The rat head is effectively part of Haley's equipment, which is why it triggers the condition, and why the scorch mark is on departure and destination sides of the teleportation.

    The only thing unexplained is why the convenient maintenance entrance doesn't work both ways, but we'll see that later I suppose.
    And once again, Probability proves itself willing to sneak into a back alley and service Drama as would a copper-piece harlot.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nazzo, the 102nd View Post
    This. Also, notice the white line on the wall. The portal is being used at that very moment. Notice how the line that marks where the portal is turns white whenever someone crosses it.

    In short: Blackwing crosses the portal back to the door on panel 20. Not before that.
    I'll be honest, I didn't notice the white line on the wall...

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverionmox View Post
    I think it's much simpler. The floor color is the key. That means:

    - Team Xykon is actually just walking into yet another monster tunnel.

    - The Order is being teleported to Somewhere Else, likely a tunnel leading to the portal.

    - The teleportation activates conditionally, likely at least the condition of alignment, which explains why Blackwing, being an unaligned animal doesn't trigger the condition but the Order does. Probably with a timer to accomodate company with an alternative alignment.

    This means that the gate tunnel isn't accidentally accessible to any random adventurer with Detect Magic and Dispel Magic. If the effects are dispelled, the tunnel remains where it is, and the gate too, likely hidden somewhere underground. The teleportation effect is just a convenient service access.

    The illusion is just an unconditional one that crosswires the sensory data when observing through the portal.

    It also only requires a *single* teleport/illusion combo, instead of one for every tunnel, hundreds or thousands.


    The rat head is effectively part of Haley's equipment, which is why it triggers the condition, and why the scorch mark is on departure and destination sides of the teleportation.

    The only thing unexplained is why the convenient maintenance entrance doesn't work both ways, but we'll see that later I suppose.
    I still don't understand the case that an active trap doesn't teleport people but a disabled one does.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    I still don't understand the case that an active trap doesn't teleport people but a disabled one does.
    The "trap" might be a two-step thing. One, relatively easy to spot and disable by a rogue, doesn't actually do very much. The second, much harder to spot, acts on the basis of the state of the first one.

    I don't think that that's what's happening, but that's how it could work.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    The "trap" might be a two-step thing. One, relatively easy to spot and disable by a rogue, doesn't actually do very much. The second, much harder to spot, acts on the basis of the state of the first one.

    I don't think that that's what's happening, but that's how it could work.
    Roy got a WONNNH!! when he went toward the dead end, so if we stipulate that teleportation is happening, it is happening. Ergo, the dead end tunnel is the tunnel where Team Evil is, Roy is correct.

    Now, question B: does "bypassing" the trap leave you in a tunnel in the "real" dungeon, or does it also teleport you, with less effects, into the "real" (yes, I'm assuming, shell game and all) dungeon. The answer, in my humble opinion, is does walking down the tunnel yield a bunch of branch points where you can join all the other doors?

    That's my idea, 5 Quatloos.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Regarding the issue of the scorch mark in team Evil / Blackwing's side:

    Just before the mini explosion that suspended the trap (1220, p8-9), the rat-skull was for a moment half way through the trap. Then the magical effect suspended, which was the cause for the mini explosion and the scorch mark. Therefore, since at this critical moment the rat-skull was half way through the team Evil side, then the explosion mark should be there too!

    Meaning that this mini explosion happened at: 1. at the side of the entrance 2. at the team Evil side 3. the OotS side. Yes. Three sides. Magic! Or rather, suspension of active teleportation magic.

    Then there is the fact that after this moment (p10), the rat-skull half that was on the team Evil side, exists now in OotS side. This shows us that suspending the spell while someone is half way through, will not in fact cut them in half.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Another random thought -- does sound transmission play into this at all? As well as seeing into the door section from the hidden corridor, the OOtS are hearing what's going on there. But Xykon isn't hearing the OOtS. If the hypothesis that corridor #1 goes "Door Section => Divination => Teleport to Corridor 2 => Hidden (OOtS) Section" is true, and that the Order is seeing/hearing Team Evil because they're in the same physical corridor, wouldn't all of their own talking carry past the divination wall and let Xykon hear them?

    Maybe the teleport traps convey the sound waves as well? But I'm having trouble figuring out a configuration where the two teleport traps behave the same way that is still consistent with the evidence. I think there's something else going on to get the sound working the way it is. Maybe it's just a good thing that Roy is only using telepathy in the dead end, and not actually speaking?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LoRdofCookIES View Post
    Meaning that this mini explosion happened at: 1. at the side of the entrance 2. at the team Evil side 3. the OotS side. Yes. Three sides. Magic! Or rather, suspension of active teleportation magic.
    That would explain the scorch mark on panel 18, but would render panels 9 and 14 wrong. On those, by your explanation, there shouldn't be half marks. They had to be on both sides.

    I still think it's as simple as an art error on panel 18. Occam's razor.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LoRdofCookIES View Post
    Regarding the issue of the scorch mark in team Evil / Blackwing's side:

    Just before the mini explosion that suspended the trap (1220, p8-9), the rat-skull was for a moment half way through the trap. Then the magical effect suspended, which was the cause for the mini explosion and the scorch mark. Therefore, since at this critical moment the rat-skull was half way through the team Evil side, then the explosion mark should be there too!

    Meaning that this mini explosion happened at: 1. at the side of the entrance 2. at the team Evil side 3. the OotS side. Yes. Three sides. Magic! Or rather, suspension of active teleportation magic.

    Then there is the fact that after this moment (p10), the rat-skull half that was on the team Evil side, exists now in OotS side. This shows us that suspending the spell while someone is half way through, will not in fact cut them in half.
    Except the scorch doesn't appear to be there in frame 14 (frame 3 of section 2).
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverionmox View Post
    I think it's much simpler. The floor color is the key. That means:

    - Team Xykon is actually just walking into yet another monster tunnel.

    - The Order is being teleported to Somewhere Else, likely a tunnel leading to the portal.

    - The teleportation activates conditionally, likely at least the condition of alignment, which explains why Blackwing, being an unaligned animal doesn't trigger the condition but the Order does. Probably with a timer to accomodate company with an alternative alignment.
    All of this from the floor color? That can be easily explained by a perpetually-active portal; everything that could affect the coloration of the floor would affect the floor on both sides of the portal. As the portal intercepts anything that would go behind it, the ground in the tunnel behind it would be untouched. Note again that the entry floor color is more muted than the color of the floor by the Order; dustier, maybe, or more worn-down. Hardly proof of Team Evil's tunnel being connected directly to the entrance.

    This means that the gate tunnel isn't accidentally accessible to any random adventurer with Detect Magic and Dispel Magic. If the effects are dispelled, the tunnel remains where it is, and the gate too, likely hidden somewhere underground. The teleportation effect is just a convenient service access.
    There are hundreds of tunnels, some or all of which might have portals of their own. Even if this is the only tunnel with a trick entrance, the odds of finding that one entrance, even with magical assistance, are pretty low. If the Order has indeed found the way to the Gate, it's probability being a copper piece harlot again.

    The illusion is just an unconditional one that crosswires the sensory data when observing through the portal.

    It also only requires a *single* teleport/illusion combo, instead of one for every tunnel, hundreds or thousands.
    Sensible, if you assume Sereni can't or won't prepare more than one portal. But Kraagor's Tomb is already an example of gross excesses; hundreds of doors, thousands of epic-level monsters, which replenish their numbers if killed, implying stock beyond what we see. Why would the traps be any less excessive?
    Last edited by Ironsmith; 2021-01-24 at 08:26 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    What should we make of the fact that Blackwing isn't black in panel 18, but rather a dark gray? This plus the scorch mark seem like very deliberate choices, which make it more likely that there's another layer of complexity than that it's simply an art error (or in this case, two art errors).

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    I still don't understand the case that an active trap doesn't teleport people but a disabled one does.
    That’s not it
    Let’s say A is in the hollow with door and B is the dungeon with monsters you get teleported to if you cross the line and trigger the trap
    The trap is permanent and teleports you to the other tunnel from that which you enter
    Haley temporarily disabled it letting the Order into the other side of A
    It then resets
    So Team Evil get teleported from front of A to B
    Roy and his sword went partially through the reactivated trap so end up in the front of B which is a dead end
    You can only go from A to A or B to B by disabling the trap
    Possibly there’s some special item or password that lets any guardians or maintainers pass freely.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by tanonev View Post
    What should we make of the fact that Blackwing isn't black in panel 18, but rather a dark gray? This plus the scorch mark seem like very deliberate choices, which make it more likely that there's another layer of complexity than that it's simply an art error (or in this case, two art errors).
    I'd say that is a deliberate art choice by Rich to picture things in the background. Look at Haley in the two last panels of 1219, for example.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Another thought occurs to me: is it possible that the portal trap is meant to catch out particularly clever intruders? The new portal leads out into a dead end, which means there's no guarantee the Order can find its way out. If something happens to their trap-finding rogue (like, say, she gets disintegrated by an epic monster), then no matter how well the Order fares in the rest of the dungeon, they're kinda screwed. Heck, can they even get air in there?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    All this talk about locating traps. Why does it have to be a trap at all? Putting the rat skull down there could be Activating a Device, not deactivating a trap. Like punching in a code to open a door. Except this “door” is a portal which is activated

    Further it could be that the portal disappears once the 20 seconds wears off. So that’s why team evil couldn’t see it even with detect magic, the magic is turned off when they pass it.

    Where the order now is, they have a new portal that is activated at all times, hence why they can detect it
    Last edited by JessmanCA; 2021-01-24 at 09:14 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironsmith View Post
    Another thought occurs to me: is it possible that the portal trap is meant to catch out particularly clever intruders? The new portal leads out into a dead end, which means there's no guarantee the Order can find its way out. If something happens to their trap-finding rogue (like, say, she gets disintegrated by an epic monster), then no matter how well the Order fares in the rest of the dungeon, they're kinda screwed. Heck, can they even get air in there?
    Most parties could just teleport out. I can't imagine Serini would go through all this specifically to trap parties that have a high level rogue and a wizard who banned conjuration.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by hungrycrow View Post
    Most parties could just teleport out. I can't imagine Serini would go through all this specifically to trap parties that have a high level rogue and a wizard who banned conjuration.
    Can they, though? There are spells that prevent teleportation (Dimensional Lock, Dimensional Anchor, Forbiddance, etc.), and it's not inconceivable that Sereni could have had a version rigged that included an exception for her portal. Plus, we've already heard that the stonework here is multidimensional or whatever (and that's why Xykon can't phase through it), so there's always a chance it naturally foils teleportation or planar travel as well.
    Last edited by Ironsmith; 2021-01-24 at 10:07 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JessmanCA View Post
    All this talk about locating traps. Why does it have to be a trap at all?
    Because Haley called it a trap and considering she's a high level rogue with a lot of experience, I'm inclined to believe her.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    The OotS think Xykon's group was the one teleported.
    But considering the other side of the trap for the OotS is now a dead end, it seems more likely that THEY were the ones teleported. Not sure that's possible, to have a trap that only transports you if you disable or bypass it, but it'd make way more sense. Then each door can teleport to the same singular tunnel and if you fall for the trap...you proceed into the dungeon like normal and find nothing but monsters and such.

    Still not sure how the hell Xykon and Redcloak never noticed this. But assuming that OotS is now on the path to the seal, then Xykon's not, and never will be until they figure this trick out. Which I'm guessing will occur due to the OotS causing them to find it... (even in a way like, "well, they just VANISHED, what could've happened? hmm...")

    Good on Blackwing getting out of there ASAP w/o waiting to be told to do so.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Blackwing is better off somewhere up high flying around. If they find him sitting out there they might recognize him from previous fights and capture him, they might make him talk

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironsmith View Post
    All of this from the floor color? That can be easily explained by a perpetually-active portal; everything that could affect the coloration of the floor would affect the floor on both sides of the portal. As the portal intercepts anything that would go behind it, the ground in the tunnel behind it would be untouched. Note again that the entry floor color is more muted than the color of the floor by the Order; dustier, maybe, or more worn-down. Hardly proof of Team Evil's tunnel being connected directly to the entrance.
    Then the dead end must get as much traffic as the entrance door - that's possible but it seems more likely that the dead end is part of the same tunnel as Xykon et al are in, with the same colored rock, and the entrance immediately in front of the door has been deliberately colored the same by Serini to avoid making the teleporter obvious (but no need to recolor the area oots are in which is past the teleporter).

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