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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Okay:

    In every panel except #18, from Roy's point of view, the entire scorch mark is visible, because he can see the corridor they came in by, and also the corridor they are in right now. Two different corridors. Blackwing, on the other hand, can't see the floor where Roy is, and can't see that scorch mark, but he can always see the whole corridor that he himself IS in. Panel by panel, I think it is consistent.

    Panel 9: from Blackwing's point of view; half of the mark is visible, on his side.

    10-12: Roy's POV; both halves are visible.

    14: BW's POV; Only the half that he could originally see is still visible. He's still in the original corridor, a different corridor from Roy, who can still see the entire scorch mark. The other half of the scorch mark is in Roy's corridor.

    Panel 18: Roy's POV; Roy can now only see half of the mark, but the opposite half. He has stuck his head into the dead end; this is not the entrance he came into.

    Two corridors, each with one half of the scorch mark in it. Roy and the rest of the party can see both halves. Blackwing can't, because the line that sent the party to a different corridor also means he can't see that corridor.

    The dead end of that corridor, is the one Roy is looking into in panel 18. It has no scorch mark, because the party entered by a different corridor.

    -------______
    _____/--______
    ___BW_/
    --------_______
    ______/--_Roy___
    __|____/

    The offset in my so-called diagram represents the boundary the party passed through, their corridor is at the bottom with the dead end. Each one is (or seems to be) a different corridor; passing through the boundary moved the party to a new corridor. (I like the word "boundary" better than "trap". For one thing, it has "bound" in it. A nice, woody sounding word.)

    Roy can see out to Blackwing's corridor, but Blackwing can't see in to Roy's corridor. And Roy can't see out to the dead end (bottom left end) unless he sticks his head through the boundary.

    I still don't see why this is an art error, it looks consistent to me. (My diagram is an art error, but that's a whole 'nother story.)
    Last edited by Darth Paul; 2021-01-25 at 04:02 AM.
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  2. - Top - End - #242
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Or maybe it's only an illusion of a dead-end, dun, dun, dun!!!

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    OK, complicated theory: there are three portals one after the other, about 1 micron apart. The first portal just teleports you to after the second portal, ie you come out the 3rd portal and stay in the same tunnel, and that works both ways. The middle portal is the one which takes you to the "real" tunnel. To access the middle portal you must disable portal 1.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    Okay:

    In every panel except #18, from Roy's point of view, the entire scorch mark is visible, because he can see the corridor they came in by, and also the corridor they are in right now. Two different corridors. Blackwing, on the other hand, can't see the floor where Roy is, and can't see that scorch mark, but he can always see the whole corridor that he himself IS in. Panel by panel, I think it is consistent.

    Panel 9: from Blackwing's point of view; half of the mark is visible, on his side.

    10-12: Roy's POV; both halves are visible.

    14: BW's POV; Only the half that he could originally see is still visible. He's still in the original corridor, a different corridor from Roy, who can still see the entire scorch mark. The other half of the scorch mark is in Roy's corridor.

    Panel 18: Roy's POV; Roy can now only see half of the mark, but the opposite half. He has stuck his head into the dead end; this is not the entrance he came into.

    Two corridors, each with one half of the scorch mark in it. Roy and the rest of the party can see both halves. Blackwing can't, because the line that sent the party to a different corridor also means he can't see that corridor.

    The dead end of that corridor, is the one Roy is looking into in panel 18. It has no scorch mark, because the party entered by a different corridor.

    -------______
    _____/--______
    ___BW_/
    --------_______
    ______/--_Roy___
    __|____/

    The offset in my so-called diagram represents the boundary the party passed through, their corridor is at the bottom with the dead end. Each one is (or seems to be) a different corridor; passing through the boundary moved the party to a new corridor. (I like the word "boundary" better than "trap". For one thing, it has "bound" in it. A nice, woody sounding word.)

    Roy can see out to Blackwing's corridor, but Blackwing can't see in to Roy's corridor. And Roy can't see out to the dead end (bottom left end) unless he sticks his head through the boundary.

    I still don't see why this is an art error, it looks consistent to me. (My diagram is an art error, but that's a whole 'nother story.)
    The thing that's confusing people is that when Roy sticks his head through the barrier, behind him we see an image where the scorch mark is on the floor apparently corresponding to where Roy's feet are, but his feet aren't visible. Instead we also see Blackwing flying with his back to a scorch mark on the floor which should only appear with Blackwing when Blackwing is in front of the door but the door is not visible in that view. If Blackwing were facing out the door with the scorch behind him, we would expect it to appear behind him to his right, rather than to his left, as well.
    Last edited by pearl jam; 2021-01-25 at 04:25 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    I said "detecting," not "disabling."
    clerics can, too.

    But to be fair, if Redcloak and Xykon spoke to the bugbears beforehand, and saw that they had been going into and out of the cave for years without harm, he might not have bothered to prepare that spell.

    Do we know whether the bugbears found them while they were exploring or if they spoke to them first?
    Last edited by JennTora; 2021-01-25 at 05:24 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Corwin Icewolf View Post
    clerics can, too.

    But to be fair, if Redcloak and Xykon spoke to the bugbears beforehand, and saw that they had been going into and out of the cave for years without harm, he might not have bothered to prepare that spell.

    Do we know whether the bugbears found them while they were exploring or if they spoke to them first?
    Also, even with that spell Redcloak's Search bonus would have been abysmal. It's not a Cleric class skill and it's Int-based, so I doubt that he'd even have half Haley's bonus.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mjasghar View Post
    That’s not it
    Let’s say A is in the hollow with door and B is the dungeon with monsters you get teleported to if you cross the line and trigger the trap
    The trap is permanent and teleports you to the other tunnel from that which you enter
    Haley temporarily disabled it letting the Order into the other side of A
    It then resets
    So Team Evil get teleported from front of A to B
    Roy and his sword went partially through the reactivated trap so end up in the front of B which is a dead end
    You can only go from A to A or B to B by disabling the trap
    Possibly there’s some special item or password that lets any guardians or maintainers pass freely.
    I understand that and it's not what I'm talking about. People, more than one, have made the case that actually Team Evil are either in the real corridor or teleported to the real dungeon, while the Order is, by disabling the trap, somehow in the decoy dungeon. Which I think is the opposite of what has happened.

  8. - Top - End - #248
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    I just wanted to offer a theory for why (shell-game discussion aside) you might want a vast array of different monsters for your attackers to fight through, other than the fact they may assume that the monsters are the whole of the defense. If there's a separate high level team defending the gate itself, you could put in place some sort of scrying system so they can watch the enemy team in action against a wide array of different opponents. You can then tailor your response to that party when and if they finally find the secret route into your inner sanctum. Even if there is no team in place any longer, that could have been the intention. We don't know what happened to Serini or why she has not responded to any of the order, but it could be the actual gate is just as unguarded as the pyramid.

    I personally think the blast mark is an art error. It looks like a pretty straight-forward portal between two corridors. One corridor is from the door into where the OotS (excluding Blackwing) are now standing. The other corridor is a dead end into a dungeon full of monsters, where Team Evil are currently exploring. Going through the portal each way teleports you to the *other* corridor. There's a wonnnnh noise of the teleport activating, that is in some way masked from two sides - the doorway and the dungeon full of monsters, but isn't masked elsewhere. Vision behaves normally, except there's a divination on the side where the OotS and, briefly, where Roy's head was, that shows what is happening down the other two ends of the corridor.

    To me, it appears clear Team Evil never had much in the way of trap-prevention. We've seen Redcloak prepare for the dungeon, and Find Traps was not one of the spells he cast (note that it's a fairly short duration spell anyway, about 20 mins for redcloak or 40 with extend, so tends to be used by Clerics situationally when they expect a trap, not "just on the off-chance" - speaking from personal experience at least!). Previously we've seen them either tank damage, send goblins/hobgoblins, or summoned undead to do the work of triggering traps. It's usually a very effective strategy - with the simple exception of exactly this sort of trap.

  9. - Top - End - #249
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    While I’ve been reading all this discussion of the scorch mark I just finally bothered to go look at it and here’s how I see it:
    I think that we’re seeing the entrance, Blackwing is already flying away from the Kill Skeleton here and that’s why we see him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elan’s Exception, “Who wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?”. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peelee’s Ye Old Reminder).

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Also, even with that spell Redcloak's Search bonus would have been abysmal. It's not a Cleric class skill and it's Int-based, so I doubt that he'd even have half Haley's bonus.
    It would probably be more than half, considering Haley hasn't been keeping her search skill maxed, and the highest bonus she can get from skill ranks is +19 (if the class and level geekery thread is right about her being level 16.) while the spell is giving Redcloak a +8 or more just from its insight bonus, but point taken nonetheless.

    Quote Originally Posted by chrestomancy View Post
    To me, it appears clear Team Evil never had much in the way of trap-prevention. We've seen Redcloak prepare for the dungeon, and Find Traps was not one of the spells he cast (note that it's a fairly short duration spell anyway, about 20 mins for redcloak or 40 with extend, so tends to be used by Clerics situationally when they expect a trap, not "just on the off-chance" - speaking from personal experience at least!). Previously we've seen them either tank damage, send goblins/hobgoblins, or summoned undead to do the work of triggering traps. It's usually a very effective strategy - with the simple exception of exactly this sort of trap.
    Good point, they probably would just animate some zombies to send ahead of them if they were worried about traps. Which means they wouldn't have a clue.
    Last edited by JennTora; 2021-01-25 at 09:13 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #251
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    While I’ve been reading all this discussion of the scorch mark I just finally bothered to go look at it and here’s how I see it:
    I think that we’re seeing the entrance, Blackwing is already flying away from the Kill Skeleton here and that’s why we see him.
    No, because Blackwing only crosses the portal back to the door on panel 20. In 18, he's still on the other side of it, to where Team Evil was teleported.
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  12. - Top - End - #252
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nazzo, the 102nd View Post
    No, because Blackwing only crosses the portal back to the door on panel 20. In 18, he's still on the other side of it, to where Team Evil was teleported.
    Wow I didn’t notice that, it’s hard to see but yeah, theory redacted I was incorrect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elan’s Exception, “Who wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?”. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peelee’s Ye Old Reminder).

  13. - Top - End - #253
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    There has to be an art error either way. In the 6th last panel we see Blackwing *and* a scorch mark in the deeper part, while 4 panels earlier we see Blackwing and *no* scorch mark. So either the art is wrong, or the illusion from that POV merges two views. But in the latter case we would see Roy completely, not just the trans-portal part.
    Last edited by Silverionmox; 2021-01-25 at 10:31 AM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Crackpot theory:

    Oona and the bugbears are working with the mysterious gate defenders.

    All the information team evil has on the area comes from Oona, and she has been there for all (?) their runs at the dungeon, happily keeping them busy.

    This would explain why the bugbear rogues (like Oona? Is she a rogue?) never rolled a 20 when checking the entrances for traps.

    The paladins were captured by the Invisible Duo after Oona spotted them - perhaps even through they evaded her, she alerted the Duo that they were in the area.

    (Apologies if someone else has brought this up already, I didn't read the whole thread to get here).
    Last edited by greenfunkman; 2021-01-25 at 02:27 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverionmox View Post
    So either the art is wrong, or the illusion from that POV merges two views. But in the latter case we would see Roy completely, not just the trans-portal part.
    And the rest of the party, for that matter. That seems like too big a detail to overlook; my money's on the scorch mark being in error.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Flap flap flap

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by greenfunkman View Post
    Crackpot theory:

    Oona and the bugbears are working with the mysterious gate defenders.

    All the information team evil has on the area comes from Oona, and she has been there for all (?) their runs at the dungeon, happily keeping them busy.

    This would explain why the bugbear rogues (like Oona? Is she a rogue?) never rolled a 20 when checking the entrances for traps.

    The paladins were captured by the Invisible Duo after Oona spotted them - perhaps even through they evaded her, she alerted the Duo that they were in the area.

    (Apologies if someone else has brought this up already, I didn't read the whole thread to get here).
    Nah, the Duo mentions getting the Paladins out of sight "before the bugbears spot them", implying a noncooperative, if not outright hostile, relationship between the two.
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  18. - Top - End - #258
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironsmith View Post
    Nah, the Duo mentions getting the Paladins out of sight "before the bugbears spot them", implying a noncooperative, if not outright hostile, relationship between the two.
    Yup, that breaks that theory!

    Dang, I thought I was on to something there.

    Edit: unless it's just Oona?
    (Grasping at straws)
    Last edited by greenfunkman; 2021-01-25 at 02:42 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironsmith View Post
    Nah, the Duo mentions getting the Paladins out of sight "before the bugbears spot them", implying a noncooperative, if not outright hostile, relationship between the two.
    They could be allies on some things, but have significant differences of opinions on others, requiring secrecy on certain aspects. (I don't think that this is the case here, but I note the possibility.)

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by greenfunkman View Post
    Yup, that breaks that theory!

    Dang, I thought I was on to something there.

    Edit: unless it's just Oona?
    (Grasping at straws)
    Oona just helped Redcloack in trying to kill two dwarves who came to negotiate his help to seal forever the gates. Not exactly the kind of behavior one would expect from the gate defenders.

  21. - Top - End - #261
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Am I the only person that thought it was odd floor the the dead end side Roy looked into did not match the floor color of the OotS side?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pearl jam View Post
    The thing that's confusing people is that when Roy sticks his head through the barrier, behind him we see an image where the scorch mark is on the floor apparently corresponding to where Roy's feet are, but his feet aren't visible. Instead we also see Blackwing flying with his back to a scorch mark on the floor which should only appear with Blackwing when Blackwing is in front of the door but the door is not visible in that view. If Blackwing were facing out the door with the scorch behind him, we would expect it to appear behind him to his right, rather than to his left, as well.
    I hadn't been looking at that aspect. We should be able to see Roy's feet. Whether we would also see Blackwing depends on the nature of the scrying barrier. So, yes, that one is either an oops or something we don't understand yet.

    The visibility of the scorch marks is still consistent, though- IF Roy should still be able to see the corridor he's standing in.

    A theory suggests itself that the barrier is something that allows people already in the "real" corridor to keep an eye on what's transpiring in the "decoy" corridor, in which case, editing out the view of the "real" corridor on the other side would be very useful in cutting down confusion. You wouldn't want to see people in both corridors at the same time, unless you knew for certain who was who. In other words, it shows you the people in the other corridor but not the floor, while you're still seeing the floor of your own corridor, but not the people in it. Don't ask me how this would work mechanically, but this is the effect we see, so I think that's what's happening.

    Such a filter would account for Roy not seeing his own feet, or the rest of the party who were standing right next to him, but being able to see Blackwing flying along the decoy corridor. After all, Elan is standing exactly where Blackwing is flying.
    Last edited by Darth Paul; 2021-01-25 at 03:44 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    I hadn't been looking at that aspect. We should be able to see Roy's feet. Whether we would also see Blackwing depends on the nature of the scrying barrier. So, yes, that one is either an oops or something we don't understand yet.

    The visibility of the scorch marks is still consistent, though- IF Roy should still be able to see the corridor he's standing in.

    A theory suggests itself that the barrier is something that allows people already in the "real" corridor to keep an eye on what's transpiring in the "decoy" corridor, in which case, editing out the view of the "real" corridor on the other side would be very useful in cutting down confusion. You wouldn't want to see people in both corridors at the same time, unless you knew for certain who was who. In other words, it shows you the people in the other corridor but not the floor, while you're still seeing the floor of your own corridor, but not the people in it. Don't ask me how this would work mechanically, but this is the effect we see, so I think that's what's happening.

    Such a filter would account for Roy not seeing his own feet, or the rest of the party who were standing right next to him, but being able to see Blackwing flying along the decoy corridor. After all, Elan is standing exactly where Blackwing is flying.
    Why bother keeping a view of the "real" floor though?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    While I’ve been reading all this discussion of the scorch mark I just finally bothered to go look at it and here’s how I see it:
    I think that we’re seeing the entrance, Blackwing is already flying away from the Kill Skeleton here and that’s why we see him.
    You can tell that Blackwing is still facing into the tunnel based on the location to the scorch mark - if you check previous frames, it's closer to the left wall of the tunnel (when standing at the door looking inwards).

    In panels 12 and 14, you can see the mark is to Blackwing's left and almost touching the left wall of the tunnel. So in panel 18, Blackwing is still looking into the tunnel. If Blackwing was exiting, the scorch mark should be by BW's right wing instead.

    One thing that had me thinking about the portals is that they can change orientation, right? Just because Roy is facing (say, south) when he sticks his head in on panel 17 doesn't require him to still be facing south when his head emerges from the other side in panel 18.

    Using portals in such a manner that they chain together and switch orientation could be used to create non-linear, possibly non-Euclidian dungeon geometry. See the puzzle game Antichamber.

    By using series of such portals in the manner of logic switches, the dungeon could be procedurally generated on each entry in classic rogue-like fashion. It might also be conceivable to create a trap where after a certain point, the portals don't line up to allow an exit any more.

    I'm reminded of the some of the final castles in the original Super Mario Bros. (Levels 4-4, 7-4, and 8-4)

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    I hadn't been looking at that aspect. We should be able to see Roy's feet. Whether we would also see Blackwing depends on the nature of the scrying barrier. So, yes, that one is either an oops or something we don't understand yet.
    I think that, from the dead end, there is no divination screen. What we see is the dungeon corridor that is physically connected to it. That's where Blackwing is in panel 18, and that's where Team Evil is.

    The same happens from OotS side. That's why they see the door. It's just a transparent screen. Or no screen at all.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nazzo, the 102nd View Post
    I think that, from the dead end, there is no divination screen. What we see is the dungeon corridor that is physically connected to it. That's where Blackwing is in panel 18, and that's where Team Evil is.
    There's no scorch mark in Blackwing's tunnel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nazzo, the 102nd View Post
    The same happens from OotS side. That's why they see the door. It's just a transparent screen. Or no screen at all.
    Then why does the floor color differ?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverionmox View Post
    There's no scorch mark in Blackwing's tunnel.
    I know. That's why I've been saying that I think that scorch mark on panel 18 is an art error. It shouldn't be there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Silverionmox View Post
    Then why does the floor color differ?
    That's a mystery too, as noted by Roy in-comic. Some people here argued that the floor is painted with the same color as the destination because if not it would be too easy to spot the portal. There is the dust theory also: the floor right next to the door is more likely to accumulate dust, rain, snow and whatnot from the outside. The portal also teleports those to the other corridor, "protecting" the original one.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nazzo, the 102nd View Post
    I think that, from the dead end, there is no divination screen. What we see is the dungeon corridor that is physically connected to it. That's where Blackwing is in panel 18, and that's where Team Evil is.
    The dead end would seem to be connected to the tunnel the party is in right now, though. So we should be able to see the whole party when looking back that way, instead of just Blackwing. We shouldn't actually see Blackwing at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    The dead end would seem to be connected to the tunnel the party is in right now, though. So we should be able to see the whole party when looking back that way, instead of just Blackwing. We shouldn't actually see Blackwing at all.
    How so? Roy goes through the trap to reach the dead end.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    The dead end would seem to be connected to the tunnel the party is in right now, though. So we should be able to see the whole party when looking back that way, instead of just Blackwing. We shouldn't actually see Blackwing at all.
    When Roy sticks his head to see the dead end, the portal is being used. Meaning that he is being teleported. If the Order tunnel and the dead end were physically connected, there was no need for a teleport.

    Also, if the Order tunnel and the dead end are physically connected, that would mean that the door and the Team Evil tunnel are connected too, meaning that they were not teleported. But we clearly see the magical effect taking place.

    To me, it's very clear: the door connects physically to the Order tunnel, and the dead end connects physically to Team Evil's tunnel.
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