Encumbrance Rules and 'Cheating'

[Fishyninja]

Hi All, so this is a two pronged question. Some explanation is down below but have included a TLDR up here.

Spoiler: TL:DR Summary

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I have specifically requested players to use encumbrance rules, half the group have been, have just found out that some other people have not been and some at present are refusing to use/track encumbrance.
Is this cheating? Is there a way to convince people (without kicking them etc) that using encumbrance can be interesting? What is the best way to track others encumbrance?

First of all, what is your general opinion on using Encumbrance? Do you use it to add elements of realism to the game and to present other challenges for the players to overcome? (i.e. 'Wow how are we going to carry all of this gold, armour and loot we just got!) or do you find it too much of an exercise to track.

For those of you who do prefer to use it, do you enforce it and how? Also if you come across players not using it would you consider it cheating?

In my game I have asked the group on multiple occasions to use encumbrance rules (I prefer to use it for a slight aspect of realism and to make characters think about load outs, supplies etc.). Last session, mid-dungeon on Roll20 I find out that some members of the party have not been adhering to this. The person in question was unable to play but mentioned that I could run her character for her, I noticed her character was 90lbs over her encumbrance limit so text her asking if we could talk about it. She was fine with it and we have hashed out her sheet (minor mismanagement) which was all conducted after the session.

However during the session I asked people to check the encumbrances and found out that some people didn't really want to track encumbrance and some flat out refused to saying it was not important.
I countered saying that it is in-fact important as weight affects many important aspects of the game, i.e. Mage hand carrying 10lbs, Bag of holding carrying 500lbs and has the potential to burst. Carrying a downed team mate etc.

I got the general responses of "Well other DM's don't do this" and "I didn't want to really have to do math everytime I pick an item up etc."
I explained to them that the sheets on Roll20 automatically calculate weights for 99% of the items you pick up and for that 1% they don't to check with me.

Anyway after finishing the session I had some players approach me saying that the fact I asked them to track encumbrance feels like I am taking control from their character. I obviously responded with that was not the case and I am asking them to follow a rule that is established and has mechanical effects in the game.

They then stated I was accusing them of cheating, and although I did not say it in those words. I think they are right.

So I am now presented with a situation where:
1) I forgo encumbrance for some things (like item weights, gold etc) but apply it to spells and magic item restrictions and have to trust my players that they will behave and will not try to break the game with it.

2) Enforce encumbrance, potentially pissing off a few players, mid-dungeon and trust them to do as I asked (which they haven't done already)

3) Enforce Encumbrance and think of a way to track their encumbrance on my own along with everything else I need to do as a DM.

Any advice?

EDITS OF NOTE

• We use Roll20 for the Game so weights for most of the items are automatically calculated
• We are using simple encumbrance (Strength Score x 15)
• The encumbrance rule was established in Session 0 and all players have this as a document to refer too.
• The players are not new, they are seasoned, as is the campaign. Usually most issues can be resolved in game but this one has been going on for nearly a week with no end in sight.
• I have made a macro for Roll20 that shows me what a characters total and current encumbrance is.

Current Decision
I have made a macro to help me as the DM track the players encumbrance. I have also just text the entire party stating that we did all agree to use the encumbrance rules in session 0 and that I would like to continue to do that, however if they do not wish too we can have a chat about it and work out something potentially.

I have stated that if we are going to do encumbrance, if a player doesn't know the weight of something (i.e. not in the PHB) then let me know and I'll add it in after session Unless it is going to make them over encumbered in the session.

[Pelle]

Wanting, or not, to track encumbrance is understandable, that's personal preference for what people find fun. You just got to talk with your group and agree on something together.

If you are going to use encumbrance, it needs to be meaningful and simple to track, however! If you can achieve that it will be easier to sway people who are negative to it.

So switch to a slot based encumbrance system, see Knave for how to do it well. And only use it in situations where their resources are actually limited. If they are in a city where everything is available it is just meaningless busywork. If you are delving into the underworld where every torch counts for how long you can stay (be sure to also include 10 min exploration turns!), then tracking encumbrance can become a fun resource management game.

[Fishyninja]

Wanting, or not, to track encumbrance is understandable, that's personal preference for what people find fun. You just got to talk with your group and agree on something together.

If you are going to use encumbrance, it needs to be meaningful and simple to track, however! If you can achieve that it will be easier to sway people who are negative to it.

So switch to a slot based encumbrance system, see Knave for how to do it well. And only use it in situations where their resources are actually limited. If they are in a city where everything is available it is just meaningless busywork. If you are delving into the underworld where every torch counts for how long you can stay (be sure to also include 10 min exploration turns!), then tracking encumbrance can become a fun resource management game.

Potentially. In all honesty I think the 5E Encumbrance method is fine, people are just being picky about going:

"Well I picked up 10 items this session, you expect me to look into the PHB to find the weights?!"

Which Roll20 does for you anyway.

I agree with them in the sense that 'most' times encumbrance does not really matter but if you have a party who are say at 99% capacity, and they find a crap ton of gold (tens of thousands of pieces) then suddenly it becomes important because they physically cannot carry all of it. Again with my example of the bag of holding, it has a weight limit which has consequences.

It seems to me that some of the players want a game without consequence and to me that sort of removes the point of D&D

[Pelle]

It seems to me that some of the players want a game without consequence and to me that sort of removes the point of D&D

Definitely, and that's fine.

The thing is, yes, your example of the bag of holding with a weight limit - the consequences are usually that it matters for the rules only. But does it matter for the scenario your characters find themselves in? Does it matter in the fiction, or can you just handwave it? Yes, I can't carry all the gold now, but since there is no pressure we can just narrate going back to town multiple times, whatever.

For it to be meaningful you need to lead with the fictional consequences, not "according to the rules...". You find a big treasure pile, you can't carry everything, and when you come back the goblins will have been here and picked up what you left - what do you choose? That's a meaningful choice, and the encumbrance rules are there to support it, but they are not the goal themselves.

If the players trust you, you don't even need to use an encumbrance system to give them meaningful choices. You can then just say things like that they are only able to carry supplies for a week of trek in the wilderness, and then hit them with heavy consequences if they don't reach their destination in time. Or in a dungeon delve you can say that they are low on torches, and have 1 hour left of light, do they continue or head back up? And then build consequences on the fiction established, but you have made it into agency for the players by formulating it as a choice first.

[Unoriginal]

If as a DM I explicitly told a player we were using a rule for this campaign, and they refuse to do it, it would show they don't want to play with me and I'd certainly not want to play with them after that.

It's not about the rules, it's about respecting people. It doesn't matter what the rule is, if they wanted to not use it they should have tried to convince the DM to not use it and accepted the outcome.

[Chronic]

I think tracking encumbrance is as important as tracking rations and water in 5e. Spoiler, it's not. In a normal game, there is so much way of avoiding the problem that no one cares about it. By enforcing it the only thing you gonna do is force your player to find a way to not care again.

Don't get me wrong with some group you can totally do it, we do it in mine and we like it, because it push us to think about what item and means of transportation we would need during exploration, but many people don't care and it's fine.

[Fishyninja]

Definitely, and that's fine.

The thing is, yes, your example of the bag of holding with a weight limit - the consequences are usually that it matters for the rules only. But does it matter for the scenario your characters find themselves in? Does it matter in the fiction, or can you just handwave it? Yes, I can't carry all the gold now, but since there is no pressure we can just narrate going back to town multiple times, whatever.

For it to be meaningful you need to lead with the fictional consequences, not "according to the rules...". You find a big treasure pile, you can't carry everything, and when you come back the goblins will have been here and picked up what you left - what do you choose? That's a meaningful choice, and the encumbrance rules are there to support it, but they are not the goal themselves.

Exactly! Later in this Dungeon, they will have the opportunity to find 50k in coins. They could take multiple trips to carry it all back to town, which is fine, I have no issues with them asking if they can do this etc. In this case there is consequences for doing multiple trips which they are aware of. What I am trying to avoid is them thinking that there is no consequence for the weight of an item. For example the character who was overweight had been collecting arrows after every combat and had 220 arrows in their inventory. 1 quiver. Hadn't mentioned about bundling up etc. and was assuming that they had no weight (hence becoming over encumbered).

My other concern is that if players think weights of items do not have consequence they will always have the right item on hand (i.e. "Oh Oh Remember I picked up that battering ram in session 2 that weighs 65lbs and I have been carrying this entire time!). If they have been and are not over encumbered, that's fine but I feel that if weights have no consequence they will just hoard.

If the players trust you, you don't even need to use an encumbrance system to give them meaningful choices. You can then just say things like that they are only able to carry supplies for a week of trek in the wilderness, and then hit them with heavy consequences if they don't reach their destination in time. Or in a dungeon delve you can say that they are low on torches, and have 1 hour left of light, do they continue or head back up? And then build consequences on the fiction established, but you have made it into agency for the players by formulating it as a choice first.

99% of the time they are absolutely fine, and there are more than enough meaningful choices for them in game, they love to plan and work stuff out! It is just so out of character to be vehemently against carry weights.

I think tracking encumbrance is as important as tracking rations and water in 5e. Spoiler, it's not. In a normal game, there is so much way of avoiding the problem that no one cares about it. By enforcing it the only thing you gonna do is force your player to find a way to not care again.

Don't get me wrong with some group you can totally do it, we do it in mine and we like it, because it push us to think about what item and means of transportation we would need during exploration, but many people don't care and it's fine.

I get you, but the problem is I have some players happy to do so, and some who are not, even though I have asked as the DM for them to use Encumbrance. I really don't want to get into a huge disagreement with them over this but I cannot be running rules differently between the party members.

[Zhorn]

Since you are on roll20 and it does most of the work for you and the other players, their gripes about not wanting to use it are just that 'tiny' bit irrelevant.

To get my biases out in the open, I'm pro-encumbrance, be that playing pen&paper or playing over a VTT.
If the DM says they want to play using encumbrance, that table is playing using encumbrance.
If the player(s) don't want to play using encumbrance, either they can offer to DM instead, or find a new table.

It can sound harsh for pen&paper games, but when playing online with VTTs and digital tools that automatically track this for you, along with access to other games and players all over the world to find tables/players with matching taste, just do as requested or find a table that is ok with you not tracking. Replacement tables and players are not in short supply.

Being said, I also agree to make sure the relevance of it is being highlighted often enough within a campaign to have meaning to the players.

• They find an npc with broken legs, do they carry them out of the cave, or leave them behind to focus on carrying treasure?
• A broken log trap is outside the orc's lair. The log is heavy, but if the players have the lift/carry capacity to reset the trap it can be used to eliminate any hostiles they try to enter/exit the lair after the party.
• etc

[kingcheesepants]

I can certainly understand where both you and your players are coming from. Having encumbrance can make certain choices matter more and can force you to be a little more creative and it does add a bit of realism. Also Roll 20 does indeed track your encumbrance and assuming that you're mostly carrying gear from the SRD it doesn't take more than typing the item into the search bar to add it in. The players do not have to do math and it's barely an inconvenience to check that you aren't over encumbered.

So why the reluctance by your players? Well they might not realize how easy it is to track stuff using the online tools. But more basic than that is that they are here to play a fun adventuring game where they get to run around and be heroes and beat up monsters and make daring plans and hoodwink devious nobles and such. Micromanaging how many blankets and caltrops and cooking sets they can carry isn't the game they want to play. You don't have them describe how they use the bathroom in the wilderness and you don't talk about their hygiene routine or how they set up tents or take care of the animals. Those things can add realism and immersion and some complexities of adventuring but they aren't what they came here for.

In my games we basically don't have encumbrance. (your option 1, it matters for spell carry weight and large things) also I want to know what the players have on their person within quick grabbing distance. Basically their equipped weapons/armor/accessories and in combat items. Everything that's small or tiny and isn't an equipped or ready to use item goes into the shared bag of holding. So that would be their food, camping supplies, tools, money, rope, random magic items they aren't actually using. If they need to carry something medium or large than that might be an exercise for the team to do (once they had to make a sled for a person that was turned to stone and occasionally they'll find a treasure horde that's too big to fit in the bag.) I haven't had any trouble with my players abusing this but if they do, well they have a lot of important things in that bag, it would be a shame if something were to happen to it...

I've played in games where we had to track how many rations we have and how heavy is your sleeping bag and how many tools do you have on you, and it was a lot less fun and a lot more micromanaging stuff and just slowed everything down. If you're doing a survival type campaign and your players want to focus more on resource management than by all means. But it sounds like they really aren't interested in that and maybe it's fine if you guys don't sweat it.

[Fishyninja]

Since you are on roll20 and it does most of the work for you and the other players, their gripes about not wanting to use it are just that 'tiny' bit irrelevant.

To get my biases out in the open, I'm pro-encumbrance, be that playing pen&paper or playing over a VTT.
If the DM says they want to play using encumbrance, that table is playing using encumbrance.
If the player(s) don't want to play using encumbrance, either they can offer to DM instead, or find a new table.

It can sound harsh for pen&paper games, but when playing online with VTTs and digital tools that automatically track this for you, along with access to other games and players all over the world to find tables/players with matching taste, just do as requested or find a table that is ok with you not tracking. Replacement tables and players are not in short supply.

Being said, I also agree to make sure the relevance of it is being highlighted often enough within a campaign to have meaning to the players.

• They find an npc with broken legs, do they carry them out of the cave, or leave them behind to focus on carrying treasure?
• A broken log trap is outside the orc's lair. The log is heavy, but if the players have the lift/carry capacity to reset the trap it can be used to eliminate any hostiles they try to enter/exit the lair after the party.
• etc

You seem to have the same feelings as Pelle in regards to making the choices meaningful and I am doing that. Or at least attempting too.
To further expand the example I mentioned earlier. They could potentially find 50k in GP.
As also mentioned they could make multiple trips back to town, the problem is every trip requires an ascent and descent down a mountain with no path so there are risks of climbing etc etc, random encounters. It is also established that in my game that if you do not want to/cannot carry your cash, there is a bank in which your money can be deposited. Some have used this feature.

When they travel anywhere I ask them, 'How are you travelling? Walking, with the horses? Are you including the cart?' I am reinforcing this to try to make them think.....Ok we have different carrying capacities based on what we pick etc. Maybe I am going about it the wrong way.

I can certainly understand where both you and your players are coming from. Having encumbrance can make certain choices matter more and can force you to be a little more creative and it does add a bit of realism. Also Roll 20 does indeed track your encumbrance and assuming that you're mostly carrying gear from the SRD it doesn't take more than typing the item into the search bar to add it in. The players do not have to do math and it's barely an inconvenience to check that you aren't over encumbered.

All the players have more experience than me as a player and DM (most of them have been playing 20+ years, I am on my 5th year)

So why the reluctance by your players? Well they might not realize how easy it is to track stuff using the online tools. But more basic than that is that they are here to play a fun adventuring game where they get to run around and be heroes and beat up monsters and make daring plans and hoodwink devious nobles and such. Micromanaging how many blankets and caltrops and cooking sets they can carry isn't the game they want to play. You don't have them describe how they use the bathroom in the wilderness and you don't talk about their hygiene routine or how they set up tents or take care of the animals. Those things can add realism and immersion and some complexities of adventuring but they aren't what they came here for.

In my games we basically don't have encumbrance. (your option 1, it matters for spell carry weight and large things) also I want to know what the players have on their person within quick grabbing distance. Basically their equipped weapons/armor/accessories and in combat items. Everything that's small or tiny and isn't an equipped or ready to use item goes into the shared bag of holding. So that would be their food, camping supplies, tools, money, rope, random magic items they aren't actually using. If they need to carry something medium or large than that might be an exercise for the team to do (once they had to make a sled for a person that was turned to stone and occasionally they'll find a treasure horde that's too big to fit in the bag.) I haven't had any trouble with my players abusing this but if they do, well they have a lot of important things in that bag, it would be a shame if something were to happen to it...

I've played in games where we had to track how many rations we have and how heavy is your sleeping bag and how many tools do you have on you, and it was a lot less fun and a lot more micromanaging stuff and just slowed everything down. If you're doing a survival type campaign and your players want to focus more on resource management than by all means. But it sounds like they really aren't interested in that and maybe it's fine if you guys don't sweat it.

I think they realise how easy it is to track and they do make sure they keep track (with reminders) of what they are carrying. A turn in combat usually starts with "Using my carried weapon I attack" or "I drop my carried weapon and draw my secondary weapon using my free action".
In regards to the complexity of adventuring. I agree, most people do not enjoy micromanaging I know I don't.

To me at present if I, for example, go with Option 1. It may almost feel like I am letting some players get away with being over-encumbered while some will perfectly RP being over-encumbered which doesn't seem fair.
Now for most of my players I wouldn't worry about this too much but now I am of the opinion (which could be entirely wrong) that the ones who are denying it the most will now be players who will go "Oh great 50K gp, just going to slide that into my pockets and walk out of here" and when I try to explain how that is not possible will cause the session to stall which is not fair on the players who have been following my request.

[Unoriginal]

Definitely, and that's fine.

but many people don't care and it's fine.

It's fine to not want X in your game, but it's definitively, 100% not fine to play in a game where there is X and ignore it because you don't want it.

If you don't want X in your game and there is X in the game you're about to join, then don't join. Or try to convince people to remove X and only join if they agree to do it.

[Pelle]

Exactly! Later in this Dungeon, they will have the opportunity to find 50k in coins. They could take multiple trips to carry it all back to town, which is fine, I have no issues with them asking if they can do this etc. In this case there is consequences for doing multiple trips which they are aware of. What I am trying to avoid is them thinking that there is no consequence for the weight of an item. For example the character who was overweight had been collecting arrows after every combat and had 220 arrows in their inventory. 1 quiver. Hadn't mentioned about bundling up etc. and was assuming that they had no weight (hence becoming over encumbered).

My other concern is that if players think weights of items do not have consequence they will always have the right item on hand (i.e. "Oh Oh Remember I picked up that battering ram in session 2 that weighs 65lbs and I have been carrying this entire time!). If they have been and are not over encumbered, that's fine but I feel that if weights have no consequence they will just hoard.

I'll say don't worry about it until it actually matters. Then you can ask for a tally and see what they are actually able to bring. And if you think it will matter in the short future, give a heads up to let them know so it don't become a gotcha. Just ask and establish things in the fiction that you can build upon later, is anyone bringing a rope? how many arrows do you carry? etc. Be sure to warn them of potential consequences based on what they choose, and make it a choice between different worthwhile options, which kind of situations they want to be prepared for. And as long as it doesn't strain anyones suspension of disbelief it is ok. If it suddenly does for someone then you can do a tally or just say that they need to leave the battering ram behind if they so prefer.

[Fishyninja]

I'll say don't worry about it until it actually matters. Then you can ask for a tally and see what they are actually able to bring. And if you think it will matter in the short future, give a heads up to let them know so it don't become a gotcha. Just ask and establish things in the fiction that you can build upon later, is anyone bringing a rope? how many arrows do you carry? etc. Be sure to warn them of potential consequences based on what they choose, and make it a choice between different worthwhile options, which kind of situations they want to be prepared for. And as long as it doesn't strain anyones suspension of disbelief it is ok. If it suddenly does for someone then you can do a tally or just say that they need to leave the battering ram behind if they so prefer.

That is what I generally do. I never want to assume anything my players do, because it will always be something out of left field! Maybe I am making a mountain out of a molehill.

[Aett_Thorn]

So my groups have gone through a few different types of encumbrance measuring, and I feel like as much as we appreciate it for its attempted realism, oftentimes it doesn't actually give you realism. A high strength character can carry a sometimes ridiculous amount of normal stuff if they limit themselves to just a couple of weapons and their armor otherwise. Meanwhile, many classes can be encumbered just with their starting gear and need to ditch stuff right away before going on their first adventure. If you use the variant encumbrance rules (the 5x str score before feeling effects) this can get even worse.

While yes, being online and using a tool that does the math automatically makes it somewhat easier. But it can still lead to some ridiculous circumstances. For instance, a character can carry 20,000 ball bearings for only 20 pounds. This has no impact on their ability to be stealthy or even weight them down all that much. But I bet if you tried to carry that many ball bearings, even if they were securely strapped to your belt or in a backpack, that you'd feel their weight.

We've used a few slot-based inventories, too. Which are somewhat better, but tend to have some odd rules of their own from what we've found. "Oh, you're a Str-based character? You get extra slots because you're strong. But your heavy armor takes up those extra slots so it doesn't matter in the end." And that two pound bag of ball bearings take up as much room as that 20-pound gold statue that you found. So this can be finicky, too.

The trick is to find an easy system that is also fun for players to use. That is going to depend on your players, in the end. But the system that we've settled on, and really seem to like, is this: https://imgur.com/a/4fxqI

First page is a saddlebag, but second page is a backpack-based inventory system. We like it because it gives different types of players different ways to increase their space for various items. High Str characters can carry an extra big thing and more coins, high Con characters can carry more bulky stuff. Smart players can pack better in the main bag, and high Dex characters can store delicate items in their main bag without breaking them. It also doesn't account for what you are using as your main stuff, like the armor you're wearing or the weapons in your hands, which is nice. It's been both fun and helps with realism, we've found.

[tchntm43]

I use it, but I also think you have to be a little loose with the rules on it otherwise it drags down the game. Like, you don't want to watch the encumbrance of one player and then as they pick up a couple coins go "Ah! You're over the weight limit!" What I would do instead is let them pass the limit but as they are traveling tell the player something like "You're feeling unusually exhausted and your feet and shoulders really hurt." And if another player picks up the backpack, then tell them "Wow, his backpack is really heavy."

Also, if the party has horses, I try and encourage them to put anything they don't need to take with them into the dungeon on the horse.

I try not to burden the players with rules like this. I keep my own copies of their character sheets so that I don't have ask them to add up weight or even tell me what they have. To save time, I made an Excel file that allows me to keep a list of items typed by name and it matches it with weight numbers listed on another tab and sums them up. So if a character gets something, I enter it on the file on the laptop I have open next to me and it updates how much the character is carrying.

It's kind of like food and water. You don't want to interrupt the party's adventuring to tell them "you must take a break to eat lunch" and you definitely don't want to say "you have no food because you forgot to buy new rations last time you were in town." It's better just to be proactive and when they're in town, tell them to take off 5 SP or whatever to restock food and water. And if I forget to tell them and realize later on, I just say "Oh, forgot that you guys had to buy food and water back in town. You can just take off the 5 SP now, no big deal." And I just assume the characters are munching in breaks when the players are taking longer than expected to discuss strategy outside of combat, which always happens more often than I anticipate.

[stoutstien]

All depends on session zero expectations. If I want to run a game that tracks resources and none of the players buy-in, I either shelf that campaign or find players who do want to participate.

I also just use a slot based encumbrance system because it's both faster and more fun.

[elyktsorb]

Honestly never quite see the importance of encumbrance because 9 times out of 10 a character will realistically run out of room to carry things before they go overweight.

[Sigreid]

I theoretically use Encumbrance, but I don't personally track it for the party as I have enough to manage as a DM and leave that to the players. Most of the time it isn't that important, and when it is I ask.

That said, it's not much of a burden on the players since we play using a digital desktop that calculates that for us.

[Fishyninja]

The trick is to find an easy system that is also fun for players to use. That is going to depend on your players, in the end. But the system that we've settled on, and really seem to like, is this: https://imgur.com/a/4fxqI

First page is a saddlebag, but second page is a backpack-based inventory system. We like it because it gives different types of players different ways to increase their space for various items. High Str characters can carry an extra big thing and more coins, high Con characters can carry more bulky stuff. Smart players can pack better in the main bag, and high Dex characters can store delicate items in their main bag without breaking them. It also doesn't account for what you are using as your main stuff, like the armor you're wearing or the weapons in your hands, which is nice. It's been both fun and helps with realism, we've found.

Hmm. I like this.

I use it, but I also think you have to be a little loose with the rules on it otherwise it drags down the game. Like, you don't want to watch the encumbrance of one player and then as they pick up a couple coins go "Ah! You're over the weight limit!" What I would do instead is let them pass the limit but as they are traveling tell the player something like "You're feeling unusually exhausted and your feet and shoulders really hurt." And if another player picks up the backpack, then tell them "Wow, his backpack is really heavy."

I get you, a few coins are not going to matter but a large haul is a different matter. The RP aspect is something I try to utilise all the time.

Also, if the party has horses, I try and encourage them to put anything they don't need to take with them into the dungeon on the horse.

Again as mentioned before hand I ask them how they are travelling etc, this dungeon is difficult as it is in a mountain (about 400ft above ground).

I try not to burden the players with rules like this. I keep my own copies of their character sheets so that I don't have ask them to add up weight or even tell me what they have. To save time, I made an Excel file that allows me to keep a list of items typed by name and it matches it with weight numbers listed on another tab and sums them up. So if a character gets something, I enter it on the file on the laptop I have open next to me and it updates how much the character is carrying.

Since I am working on Roll20, I might play around with a Macro.

I theoretically use Encumbrance, but I don't personally track it for the party as I have enough to manage as a DM and leave that to the players. Most of the time it isn't that important, and when it is I ask.

That said, it's not much of a burden on the players since we play using a digital desktop that calculates that for us.

Well this is the point, I shouldn't have to track it but I have players who have admitted to not following the rules. I don't exactly want to boot a player in the middle of a campaign for this but I want them to understand the rules are there for a reason.

[Unoriginal]

Maybe I am making a mountain out of a molehill.

You're not.

It's not a question of the Encumbrance rules, it's a question of you telling your players a rule, your players nodding and then saying "yeah, I'm not doing that."

You are the DM. If they agreed for you to be their DM, they agreed to follow your calls. Those players didn't, on purpose.

If they don't respect you by refusing to follow a rule, there's no reason they'd respect you for anything else.

It's like... many DMs won't actually ask the PCs to track down costly components for spells, because "it's easier not to" or the like. And it's perfectly fine if the DMs and players prefer it that way. But if the DM says "yeah you do need the actual components if you're casting something with a gp cost", because they prefer those things to matter, it would be a *huge* lack of respect for a Cleric player to go "yeah no I won't do that, I want to raise the dead easily".

[Fishyninja]

You're not.

It's not a question of the Encumbrance rules, it's a question of you telling your players a rule, your players nodding and then saying "yeah, I'm not doing that."

You are the DM. If they agreed for you to be their DM, they agreed to follow your calls. Those players didn't, on purpose.

If they don't respect you by refusing to follow a rule, there's no reason they'd respect you for anything else.

It's like... many DMs won't actually ask the PCs to track down costly components for spells, because "it's easier not to" or the like. And it's perfectly fine if the DMs and players prefer it that way. But if the DM says "yeah you do need the actual components if you're casting something with a gp cost", because they prefer those things to matter, it would be a *huge* lack of respect for a Cleric player to go "yeah no I won't do that, I want to raise the dead easily".

This hits the nail on the head. I do not bother with spell components (unless super rare) and the players like that. In reality I think the players (of which it is a small number) just want an easy ride. Ironically. I actually had put off giving them a Bag of Holding because I wanted them to take into account weights. Now that they have the bag it is what has brought all these questions up!

[Sigreid]

This hits the nail on the head. I do not bother with spell components (unless super rare) and the players like that. In reality I think the players (of which it is a small number) just want an easy ride. Ironically. I actually had put off giving them a Bag of Holding because I wanted them to take into account weights. Now that they have the bag it is what has brought all these questions up!

Sounds like they're more interested in the role play of the game than the math of the game. Also sounds like you don't have agreement from the table on how things are going to be played.

[Unoriginal]

This hits the nail on the head. I do not bother with spell components (unless super rare) and the players like that. In reality I think the players (of which it is a small number) just want an easy ride. Ironically. I actually had put off giving them a Bag of Holding because I wanted them to take into account weights. Now that they have the bag it is what has brought all these questions up!

Note that a Bag of Holding still has a limit in weight and in volume, not to mention the question of if it can go through the bag's opening.

But yeah, nothing wrong with a game where those things aren't a concern. PLENTY of wrong if you agreed to a game where those things are a concern and decided to break that agreement.

A player going "I have 8 STR and I'm carrying three full plate armor in my backpack" is only a problem if they're not respecting what the DM ruled. And that's what happening here.

If the DM rules that being hit by an out-of-control wagon is 3d10 damage, a player can't just nod and roll 1d6 because they think it's more appropriate. This is the same.

Also sounds like you don't have agreement from the table on how things are going to be played.

There was an agreement. And then some players decided to not follow the terms.

Sounds like they're more interested in the role play of the game than the math of the game.

Sounds like they're more interested in not respecting the DM's rulings than in respecting them.

[Kurt Kurageous]

I personally don't enjoy playing "keeper of weights, rations, water, and ammunitions." These are things that matter a lot less in a game where you can pretend to be an elf. It's a game, and games are supposed to be fun, so why should I do things that are work? I'm on paper (still).

If you as DM like the fiddly stuff or you run on a computer that tracks that stuff, tell us why that adds fun to the game. Because it didn't in every single version of face to face D&D I have experienced. Maybe it's fun for you.

As many have said, I worry about weight only when it matters.

At my table, ammunition is lost when you roll a 1 or a 20, and must be replaced if you've been out of town awhile (unless you are proficient with fletcher tools). As you can imagine, this stops players from carrying around a barrel full of arrows/bolts. 40 is normally way more than you would need unless you are going to play OOTA. OOTA is an extreme case, and part of the reason I'm never going to run or play it and am sorry I bought the book.

[Unoriginal]

I personally don't enjoy playing "keeper of weights, rations, water, and ammunitions." These are things that matter a lot less in a game where you can pretend to be an elf. It's a game, and games are supposed to be fun, so why should I do things that are work? I'm on paper (still).

If you as DM like the fiddly stuff or you run on a computer that tracks that stuff, tell us why that adds fun to the game. Because it didn't in every single version of face to face D&D I have experienced. Maybe it's fun for you.

It doesn't matter what the reason is. It could be an exploration Hexcrawl à la ToA, where food rationing maters, or it could be the DM doesn't enjoy PCs hauling half of a Giant's kitchen because "loot is loot".

What matters is that the rules were presented, agreed upon, and then disregarded.

[Lord Ruby34]

You're not.

It's not a question of the Encumbrance rules, it's a question of you telling your players a rule, your players nodding and then saying "yeah, I'm not doing that."

You are the DM. If they agreed for you to be their DM, they agreed to follow your calls. Those players didn't, on purpose.

If they don't respect you by refusing to follow a rule, there's no reason they'd respect you for anything else.

It's like... many DMs won't actually ask the PCs to track down costly components for spells, because "it's easier not to" or the like. And it's perfectly fine if the DMs and players prefer it that way. But if the DM says "yeah you do need the actual components if you're casting something with a gp cost", because they prefer those things to matter, it would be a *huge* lack of respect for a Cleric player to go "yeah no I won't do that, I want to raise the dead easily".

On the other hand, you are only the DM with player buy in. If you're the only one at the table who actually likes encumbrance, I'd just ditch it. I know a lot of people do, or just ask how are you carrying that? Where on your body are you putting these things?

The most important part of DnD is to make sure everyone is having fun. If a rule isn't fun for your players to the point that they are actively objecting to it, you need to ask yourself if the rule is important enough to keep using. Is encumbrance adding fun, or limiting it?

Being the DM isn't about being in charge of the group, or even the game. The game belongs to everyone, and everyone needs to get on the same page about the rule. If everyone agreed, and then ignored it, that isn't cool, but what that means is you need to sit down out of character and talk about how important this is to everyone, you included, as the DM is a player too, and your opinion matters just as much as the opinion of your players.

[Fishyninja]

Sounds like they're more interested in the role play of the game than the math of the game. Also sounds like you don't have agreement from the table on how things are going to be played.

Being the DM isn't about being in charge of the group, or even the game. The game belongs to everyone, and everyone needs to get on the same page about the rule. If everyone agreed, and then ignored it, that isn't cool, but what that means is you need to sit down out of character and talk about how important this is to everyone, you included, as the DM is a player too, and your opinion matters just as much as the opinion of your players.

Which is what I don't understand. We play on Roll20 and run the voice over Discord.
I literally have a text server with all the game rules established so they either have not read it or are choosing to ignore it.

I mean all the players are heavy on RP but some of them love the fact of RPing item management. Hence why it feels like a few select players are trying to 'cheat'.

This is the crux. Half the players are buying in, the other half are not even though the rules have been established and we have been playing weekly for over a year.
Some of the players are acting if this is a new rule.

[MoiMagnus]

Is this cheating?

(1) If you hide the fact that you are breaking the rules and pretend that you don't, that's cheating.
(2) If you openly reject the rules set in place, that's not cheating, as there is no deception. However such disagreement is incompatible with continuing to play. One must either find rules everybody agrees to, or split the tables into groups of like-minded peoples to start two different campaigns.
(3) If you don't respect the rules "to the letter" and just apply some rough approximation of it because you assumed that the DM was not that serious about applying the encumbrance rules, then that's a misunderstanding, and after a good talk you should end up in (1) or (2)

We personally never play with encumbrance as I've never encountered a player IRL who really wanted to, but I know some tables use apps to automatically compute encumbrance. If the problem is just peoples being lazy, I heavily encourage you to find one of those phone app and ask the players to use them.

Another possible solution is to guide them more toward solution to encumbrance problems. In an adventure with encumbrance rules, peoples use mounts and vehicles to carry stuff. No one in their right mind would go into an adventure with everything on their back. In our current campaign, despite the fact that we don't use encumbrance rules explicitly, we still take some time before each "adventure" to plan for the expedition, recruiting 5-10 NPCs to guard for the provisions and carry loot, etc. But we would not have started doing that if the DM didn't first guide us into doing it. [By making us the first expedition be organised by someone else]

[Unoriginal]

On the other hand, you are only the DM with player buy in.

Sure.

If you're the only one at the table who actually likes encumbrance, I'd just ditch it.

If I'm the only one at the table who wants to play with encumbrance, and I actually want to play a campaign with encumbrance, then I leave the table and let them play without it. Or keep playing with that table and try to find another who would like to play with encumbrance, if it's not a deal breaker.

The most important part of DnD is to make sure everyone is having fun.

Everyone, including the DM. Being disrespected is not fun.

If a rule isn't fun for your players to the point that they are actively objecting to it, you need to ask yourself if the rule is important enough to keep using. Is encumbrance adding fun, or limiting it?

The players were not *objecting* to the rule.

If a player made an objection to the rule, then it could be discussed and the DM can decide what to do.


This is players who *agreed* to follow the rule, then decided not to, showing a total lack of concern and respect for the agreement and DM.

Which is what I don't understand. We play on Roll20 and run the voice over Discord.
I literally have a text server with all the game rules established so they either have not read it or are choosing to ignore it.

I mean all the players are heavy on RP but some of them love the fact of RPing item management. Hence why it feels like a few select players are trying to 'cheat'.

This is the crux. Half the players are buying in, the other half are not even though the rules have been established and we have been playing weekly for over a year.
Some of the players are acting if this is a new rule.

Have you gone over the other rules with your players, just to see if they're following those?

[Fishyninja]

(1) If you hide the fact that you are breaking the rules and pretend that you don't, that's cheating.
(2) If you openly reject the rules set in place, that's not cheating, as there is no deception. However such disagreement is incompatible with continuing to play. One must either find rules everybody agrees to, or split the tables into groups of like-minded peoples to start two different campaigns.
(3) If you don't respect the rules "to the letter" and just apply some rough approximation of it because you assumed that the DM was not that serious about applying the encumbrance rules, then that's a misunderstanding, and after a good talk you should end up in (1) or (2)

We personally never play with encumbrance as I've never encountered a player IRL who really wanted to, but I know some tables use apps to automatically compute encumbrance. If the problem is just peoples being lazy, I heavily encourage you to find one of those phone app and ask the players to use them.

Another possible solution is to guide them more toward solution to encumbrance problems. In an adventure with encumbrance rules, peoples use mounts and vehicles to carry stuff. No one in their right mind would go into an adventure with everything on their back. In our current campaign, despite the fact that we don't use encumbrance rules explicitly, we still take some time before each "adventure" to plan for the expedition, recruiting 5-10 NPCs to guard for the provisions and carry loot, etc. But we would not have started doing that if the DM didn't first guide us into doing it. [By making us the first expedition be organised by someone else]

It seems the dissenting players are of a mix of 2 and 3 and since we play on a VTT it automatically does it all for you, so I do not know why there is an issue. Looking at your last paragraph the group are heavy into organization before an adventure, they all have horses, work out if they need their cart or retainer etc. So they are familiar with the idea of planning it is just some of them are ignoring encumbrance which usually is fine in some aspects but when they suddenly come across a life changing amount of loot I don't want them to just insert '20k GP' onto their sheet and wander out!