[3.5] am I limited to one bite attack per turn if I have multiple sources of bite?

[liquidformat]

Because of the wording of the natural attacks section, I don't think this is true. The natural weapons in question aren't the same. You make Gore attacks with horns, brambles, etc. Some kind of spiky bit protruding from the body. You make bite attacks with fangs, maws, and mouths. Because the natural attack is based off of the natural weapon being used, I don't think there's any conflict with using a gore and a bite at the same time. I'm trying to recall any precedent for this, but I'm AFB and drawing a blank at the moment.

I know I sowed some confusion with this earlier though when I said what I did about heads, so that's on me.

I could have sworn there was something about gore and bites both being on the head you could only do one or the other and not both in a round, though will have to do some book diving to see where that came from. Anyways for boars, dire boar, elephant, elephant variants, and I think fhorge too their gore attack is a form of bite attack since it id performed with the tusks coming out of the mouth of the animal...

[AnimeTheCat]

but the rule as written says that the monster entry takes precedence over that, which is where I have my hangsup! A troll have 2 claws in it's full attack entry. it's type is giant so it's vaguely humanoid shaped, the srd doesn't mention at all *what it looks like*, I can certainly use it's game statistic *as is* while describing to players that it's an "old one armed troll" or whatever.

if it's standing still or taking a 5ft-step, then it's entitled to do a full attack action, what's his full attack? 2 claws (attack!)+bite (attack!), what this corresponds to the fiction may well be the troll flailing for 6 seconds and hitting/not hitting a whatever amounts of times as abstracted on the to-hit versus AC

I will try to find some monster entry where amount of natural attacks do not match up to the corresponding body part, I don't expect to find any, because I understand your point, and I agree! But it's ignoring that we are told to use the monster entry :( Tarrasque *should* have one gore attack if we go by the rule compendium, but instead has 2 horns attacks, for example. I don't take it as being an example of what I mean above, I must research, but can't right now ( coffee break @ work)

I'll get back to this, I too have to move quickly.

I could have sworn there was something about gore and bites both being on the head you could only do one or the other and not both in a round, though will have to do some book diving to see where that came from. Anyways for boars, dire boar, elephant, elephant variants, and I think fhorge too their gore attack is a form of bite attack since it id performed with the tusks coming out of the mouth of the animal...

Boars and elephants (both varieties, as far as I could tell) don't get bite attacks at all, they only get gore attacks. This is probably because they lack the teeth to properly use their mouth as a weapon and are instead relying on ramming things with their tusks. Elephants also get tramles from their feet and a slam from their trunk though, so there's still no conflict.

[Darg]

I don't think this is correct because of what Rules Compendium says about Natural Attacks:


So, we know that a bite attack natural weapon is physically part of a creature. By casting Bite of the wererat, did you gain another bite natural attack by growing another biting body part? My thoughts are no, because the Bite of the wererat spell says:

Natural weapon and natural attack are separate terms. Natural weapon is the weapon and natural attack is an attack with a natural weapon. As proven with Rapidstrike they definitely are separate things. Rapidstrike also proves that it is possible to get more than one attack per weapon. Haste is also an example of it. You might be right though about getting extra attacks with a natural weapon. Both DD's and BotWererat's description states that you "gain" a bite attack which is the terminology WotC uses for gaining abilities which a natural weapon is.

To summarize, how does one physically have the bite of a rat and a dragon in the same physical form? My suggestion is that you don't, and that the rules generally support that suggestion, and that it's probably best not to overthink it because until you point out where your specific creature rules state otherwise, you're still bound by the general rule in the natural attacks book that states "...a creature can make one bite attack..."

DD doesn't say you grow claws or the snout of a dragon. Sure it's easy to picture, but by RAW it doesn't happen. All it says is that you get the attacks which I have already pointed out as being separate from the weapons used. This makes it really easy to assume that they get the attack without growing new body parts. It's also really easy to assume these are extra attacks as I mentioned before natural weapons are not limited in the number of attacks you can have with them. As they aren't limited by form and are class features you don't lose them when changing form.

this is true in pathfinder not 3.5 iirc. in 3.5 you have one primary attack and all others are secondary unless otherwise noted.

Not true. Primary and secondary are based on the weapon not the attack. If you hasted a bite weapon for an extra attack the second attack is not secondary. It is a primary attack just like the first because it is delivered by the primary weapon.

[Remuko]

Not true. Primary and secondary are based on the weapon not the attack. If you hasted a bite weapon for an extra attack the second attack is not secondary. It is a primary attack just like the first because it is delivered by the primary weapon.

It is indeed true.

When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary.

It doesnt matter how many weapons they have or what type, unless some specific thing overrules it, this is the general rule and all weapons beside one are secondary.

[Darg]

It is indeed true.



It doesnt matter how many weapons they have or what type, unless some specific thing overrules it, this is the general rule and all weapons beside one are secondary.

Rapidstrike? Haste? They don't create a secondary weapon. They give extra attacks to existing weapons. Meaning they don't suffer the secondary weapon attack penalty. Your quote specifically calls out weapons, not the individual attacks. You can have 2 primary bite attacks with haste. An amulet of natural attacks of speed can give each of your natural weapons extra attacks without increasing the number of weapons you possess. Attacks and weapons are different terms.

[Remuko]

Rapidstrike? Haste? They don't create a secondary weapon. They give extra attacks to existing weapons. Meaning they don't suffer the secondary weapon attack penalty. Your quote specifically calls out weapons, not the individual attacks. You can have 2 primary bite attacks with haste. An amulet of natural attacks of speed can give each of your natural weapons extra attacks without increasing the number of weapons you possess. Attacks and weapons are different terms.

my original comment was in the context of the discussion which is on natural weapons. so what i was stating was the rule on natural weapons. youre talking about iteratives and a feat whose specific trumps the general rule.