MMM, Rope trick Unbeatable?

[Emperor Demonking]

Two questions.
One is MMM unbeatable.
Two, apart from not being able to bring bags of holding is rope trick unbeatable.

[Yuki Akuma]

Dispel Magic.

No.

[AKA_Bait]

Dispel Magic.

No.

QFT

Of course, finding them might be harder. Transdimensional spell is also good for hurting things in there.

[Starbuck_II]

Dispel Magic.

No.

Lose line of Sight and Effect from Rope trick. Unless Dispel Magic works across planes (I'd say no). You can't area dispel either it says. This assuming they pull rope into the Rope trick area.
If they leave the rope hanging out one could dispel it.

But yes, Rope Trick is that immune.

[Irreverent Fool]

I'd have to say that per the RAW, you can't dispel a rope trick (even though you can detect the window via certain spells such at detect magic) Since you can't see through the window from the outside even with transdimensional spell you wouldn't have a line of sight and so wouldn't have any way to target what the spell is cast upon which, as the spell description says, is the rope.

Of course, you can always detect it, set up a trap, and wait.

[AKA_Bait]

You can't area dispel either it says.

I'd have to say that per the RAW, you can't dispel a rope trick (even though you can detect the window via certain spells such at detect magic) Since you can't see through the window from the outside even with transdimensional spell you wouldn't have a line of sight and so wouldn't have any way to target what the spell is cast upon which, as the spell description says, is the rope.

Creatures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes.

Where, exactly, does it day this? The window and bottom are present on the material plane. The window is only invisible (so anything that would let you see invis. would let you see the window and have line of effect also btw). Note that the creatures inside the space can't be effected, but the spell itself opens a hole and creates a window attached to the material plane. An area dispel should certianly be able to effect it as well as a targeted dispel on the window, which although you can't see in, you can see the window itself. Furthermore, with transdimensional spell, if you do an area dispel, you wouldn't need to target the rope specifically (and therefore need to see it) as it would be in the area.

[Dausuul]

I'd have to say that per the RAW, you can't dispel a rope trick (even though you can detect the window via certain spells such at detect magic) Since you can't see through the window from the outside even with transdimensional spell you wouldn't have a line of sight and so wouldn't have any way to target what the spell is cast upon which, as the spell description says, is the rope.

Hmm, that's true. So rope trick is, in this respect, more secure than Mordenkainen's, whose point of origin remains in the Material Plane and is thus subject to dispel. On the other hand, it is arguably possible for an intruder to enter the dimensional interface of a rope trick, if said intruder can spot the window and fly up to it.

Where, exactly, does it day this? The window and bottom are present on the material plane. The window is only invisible (so anything that would let you see invis. would let you see the window and have line of effect also btw).

You have to target the point of origin, which is the rope; and the rope is in the extradimensional space. Rope trick specifically states that spell effects cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface, and area effects do not cross it.

[daggaz]

There's nothing to stop the enemy from turning the spot into a regular kill zone, tho. Rope trick is fine if you are just trying to avoid unwanted encounters in the middle of the night. But if you are deep into enemy territory? One would be well advised to not catch oneself in what is essentially a very tight corner.

[mostlyharmful]

Hmm, that's true. So rope trick is, in this respect, more secure than Mordenkainen's, whose point of origin remains in the Material Plane and is thus subject to dispel. On the other hand, it is arguably possible for an intruder to enter the dimensional interface of a rope trick, if said intruder can spot the window and fly up to it.



You have to target the point of origin, which is the rope; and the rope is in the extradimensional space. Rope trick specifically states that spell effects cannot reach into the extradimensional space unless they can cross planes.

So the obvious answer is to go into your rope trick and then cast Mordenk... Booom.. heh, oops


seriously who wants a perfect impentetrable fortress from a LEVEL TWO frikn' spell?

[skywalker]

So the obvious answer is to go into your rope trick and then cast Mordenk... Booom.. heh, oops


seriously who wants a perfect impentetrable fortress from a LEVEL TWO frikn' spell?

The only thing it says is: "It is hazardous... blah blah blah." It doesn't specify what happens,(as it does with portable holes and bags of holding) it just says it's hazardous. So technically, by RAW, there's nothing wrong with casting MMM inside your rope trick area. Since we're going RAW crazy in this thread anyway.

[mostlyharmful]

The only thing it says is: "It is hazardous... blah blah blah." It doesn't specify what happens,(as it does with portable holes and bags of holding) it just says it's hazardous. So technically, by RAW, there's nothing wrong with casting MMM inside your rope trick area. Since we're going RAW crazy in this thread anyway.

They may be but I am having fun thank you.

[Dausuul]

The only thing it says is: "It is hazardous... blah blah blah." It doesn't specify what happens,(as it does with portable holes and bags of holding) it just says it's hazardous. So technically, by RAW, there's nothing wrong with casting MMM inside your rope trick area. Since we're going RAW crazy in this thread anyway.

Not that it would make your fortress invulnerable, even so. The enemy just has to climb into your rope trick and then dispel magic on your Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion... or even just dispel the rope trick from inside, and see what happens to the MMM entrance when the plane it's on ceases to exist. (Objects within the rope trick just get dumped out, but does that apply to spell effects as well?)

[AKA_Bait]

You have to target the point of origin, which is the rope; and the rope is in the extradimensional space. Rope trick specifically states that spell effects cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface, and area effects do not cross it.

You may be right there. A transdimensional area dispel should still nail the sucker though.

Not that it would make your fortress invulnerable, even so. The enemy just has to climb into your rope trick and then dispel magic on your Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion... or even just dispel the rope trick from inside, and see what happens to the MMM entrance when the plane it's on ceases to exist. (Objects within the rope trick just get dumped out, but does that apply to spell effects as well?)

How can they climb in if you pulled the rope up?

[technophile]

How can they climb in if you pulled the rope up?

The spell description only says that creatures cannot see through the window, and that the rope disappears if you pull it in; it doesn't say that pulling it in closes the window or prevents creatures from flying through it etc.

[AKA_Bait]

The spell description only says that creatures cannot see through the window, and that the rope disappears if you pull it in; it doesn't say that pulling it in closes the window or prevents creatures from flying through it etc.

I always got the impression from this spell that you could only enter the extradimensional space if you a climbing the rope, since it doesn't specificy the size of the opening or that the window is the opening. That seems to be supported by the fact that it can fit 8 creatures of any size, even ones broader than the window.

[Irreverent Fool]

The spell description only says that creatures cannot see through the window, and that the rope disappears if you pull it in; it doesn't say that pulling it in closes the window or prevents creatures from flying through it etc.

Eh, we're in gray area here. The spell implies that you have to go into the space via the means of the rope. It doesn't say it opens a doorway that anyone can go through and that the rope is just a handy way of getting there. You're casting a spell on the rope itself, remember.

Of course, there's nothing saying specifically that you can't either.

Edit: Ninja'd

A transdimensional area dispel should still nail the sucker though.

More gray area. The spell description reads "...Creatures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes." and later states "Spells cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it."

So what the RAW are saying here is that spells that work across planes and that don't have to have a line of sight or effect to get to their victims can affect those inside. Essentially this second line limits your choices to divinations that work across planes. No, sir. I don't like it.

[AKA_Bait]

More gray area. The spell description reads "...Creatures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes." and later states "Spells cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it."

So what the RAW are saying here is that spells that work across planes and that don't have to have a line of sight or effect to get to their victims can affect those inside. Essentially this second line limits your choices to divinations that work across planes. No, sir. I don't like it.

Um, except for the fact that Transdimensional Spell specifically does allow spells to cross to other planes that the spell would normally not be able to effect. In a pre-complete arcane version of the feat posted on the wizards site it specifically mentions rope trick, in fact.

[Irreverent Fool]

Um, except for the fact that Transdimensional Spell specifically does allow spells to cross to other planes that the spell would normally not be able to effect. In a pre-complete arcane version of the feat posted on the wizards site it specifically mentions rope trick, in fact.

I stand corrected. WHY DIDN'T YOU LINK THAT SOONER? So an transdimensional area dispel could hit the rope that was pulled up, thus dispelling the entire rope trick.

Of course, this would reQuire the use of a 4th-level spell slot to defeat that pesky 2nd-level spell.

Okay! So it's not unbeatable, just powerful.

[AKA_Bait]

I stand corrected. WHY DIDN'T YOU LINK THAT SOONER? So an transdimensional area dispel could hit the rope that was pulled up, thus dispelling the entire rope trick.

Of course, this would reQuire the use of a 4th-level spell slot to defeat that pesky 2nd-level spell.

Okay! So it's not unbeatable, just powerful.

Well yes, the OP's question was about it being unbeatable afterall... it's totally powerful. Overpowered for a second level spell imho.

[Roderick_BR]

Now I imagine the wizard, wearing robes and bunny shoes, laying on his extra-large bed, reading something relaxing... suddenly space warps around him, and he sees himself falling to the ground, all his equipment and clothes scattered around him. He gets up, look around, and finds the other wizard that just had a success in his dispel check.

[AKA_Bait]

Now I imagine the wizard, wearing robes and bunny shoes, laying on his extra-large bed, reading something relaxing... suddenly space warps around him, and he sees himself falling to the ground, all his equipment and clothes scattered around him. He gets up, look around, and finds the other wizard that just had a success in his dispel check.

Oh yes, that's a something I've pictured many times. If WotC would pay me to write novels set in their universes I would have written that as a death scene long long ago. :-)

[Kurald Galain]

Okay, how's this:

Planar Trap (abjuration, level 5)

Range: medium
Area: circle of 10 foot per level
Duration: 1 hour per level
Components: V,S,M

This spell creates a hazardous disturbance between the planes. Any creature attemping to enter or leave the plane the spell is cast on within its area of effect (this includes planeshifting, going ethereal, entering a Rope Trick, etc) is struck by violent turbulence of the planar border.

Any such victim must make three fortitude saves. A victim who makes all three feels uncomfortable but is otherwise unaffected. A victim that fails one saving throw is stunned for 1d6 rounds. A victim who fails two saving throws takes 1d6 points of damage per caster level, in addition to being stunned. A victim failing all three saving throws is disintegrated.

The presence of this spell cannot be detected by Detect Magic and similar effects, except those created by 5th-level or higher spells.

[martyboy74]

Would that spell include Teleport/DD effects? Is so, it seems like it could possibly be a little powerful.

[Indon]

So, wait, why can't you dispel the entrance to a Rope Trick as its' own magical effect, even if you can't dispel the entire spell itself?

[Irreverent Fool]

So, wait, why can't you dispel the entrance to a Rope Trick as its' own magical effect, even if you can't dispel the entire spell itself?

The spell is on the rope.

[Indon]

The spell is on the rope.

So if you cast an Antimagic Field and engulf the entrance with it, but not the rope, the hole to an extradimensional space remains unmolested?

[Kantolin]

Rope trick is fine if you are just trying to avoid unwanted encounters in the middle of the night. But if you are deep into enemy territory? One would be well advised to not catch oneself in what is essentially a very tight corner.

I never quite understood why people mention this. It seems to me that hiding in a rope trick at night deep in enemy territory is far superior to simply setting up your camp in enemy territory without defenses.

[Starbuck_II]

So if you cast an Antimagic Field and engulf the entrance with it, but not the rope, the hole to an extradimensional space remains unmolested?

Correct. This is because Antimagic field cannot cross planes.

[MrNexx]

This is a spell I hope they fix in 4th edition.

As it is, there is an expensive way of trapping someone in a Rope Trick... Forbiddance. If you know where they are, you can basically make it impossible for them to leave a Rope Trick and, when the RT spell ends, they've got a severe problem... they can't go back, and they can't stay.

[Corinthus]

Okay, so as far as rope trick is concerned, IF you can find the portal to the extradimensional space, and it doesnt close when the rope is pulled up, (Im a bit unsure on these points), there exists a simple counter. One performable by most classes.

Throw a bag of holding in there. Sure, the notes on the spell just say hazardous, but im fairly sure that bad things will then happen to the people in there. Collapse, interdimensional rift, its an open book for the dm to toy with. (and seriously, what dm isnt going to toy with his players?)