Unearthed Arcana 1/26/21 - Gothic Lineages

[Arkhios]

Since I do not accept Ravnica at my table (I have no use for it) I suppose I have a blind spot there. It's a matter of taste, I suppose, but the leaking of MtG into D&D disappoints me (I totally understand the corporate reason to cross the streams/merge the product lines)

Y'know, it might actually be MtG settings' specialty, to have creature types such as fey for PC's.

Personally, I have nothing against accepting MtG universe as part of the greater D&D multiverse; that doesn't mean, however, that I would let players freely choose races indigenous to a setting and play one in another setting, unless the whole campaign is about traveling the multiverse between multiple universes. In other words, races such as those from Ravnica or Theros are very unlikely to be allowed in for example Forgotten Realms or Eberron, and vice versa. They each have their own lists of available races, so use them.

As of the contents of this UA, it seems clear that the team is trying to expand on something new and inspiring (the Custom Lineage). And that's perfectly fine. Let them try things out, see how it's received. It might just as well be judged unworthy of the effort and forgotten. You remember how many iterations artificer went through? Or psionics?

Heck, do you remember the Modern Magic UA? Haven't heard much of that concept since.

They try out new things with UA. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. Regardless of the results, you're still free to ignore or embrace anything they come up with. No need to allow everything.

[Tanarii]

I promise I'll shut up about Tasha's just as soon as WotC admit it was a colossal misstep and throw the entire, ill-conceived idea into the garbage where it belongs.

Going by WotCs track record, when they shoot themselves in the foot half way through an edition, they just double down even harder.

Although usually the initial foot shooting is cause by declining sales, not by a moral panic.

[Scots Dragon]

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

With regard to the meat of the UA, I normally like options with a gothic flavour but these just feel like an absolute mess. {scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Feels like you're the one who's offended here.

[FinalDuck]

Yeah, I'd agree that the amnesia thing missed the mark in terms of what people would actually play this race for.

The amnesia thing is exactly what I want to play this race for. Bourne Identity, Cowboys and Aliens, Generator Rex are great works of fiction that use this trope.

Also, means you start the first session with no baggage that makes it hard to work with other characters (like being rival factions); your DM can tie your backstory into whatever plot hooks they like without you being to overpowered or over important when you’re too low level for it to make sense.

[king_steve]

I saw someone else mention the Hollowed One Supernatural Gift from Explorers Guide to Wildemount. Instead of giving you dual types it gives you:

Revenance. You retain your creature type, yet you register as undead to spells and other effects that detect the presence of the undead creature type.

Do you think that type of effect would be better than having a dual type?

[Dr. Cliché]

Feels like you're the one who's offended here.

{scrubbed}

[Scots Dragon]

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

This is literally only one source that uses the Tasha's material, and does so in a way that makes sense given that these are all meant to derive from other cultural backgrounds anyway in addition to being dhampirs or hagspawn. Why is that such an issue?

Nobody's going around and tearing out early chapters of your Player's Handbook and forcing you to use Tasha's Cauldron of Everything now.

[MaxWilson]

Then again, it's not framed as a non-optional rule either. Just because it's not mentioned one way or another doesn't make it any less optional rule.

It can't be repeated enough: if you don't like this, or some other rules option, simply ignore it, and have fun with the rules you actually do like.
Constructive criticism is one thing, but compulsive bashing is something else entirely.

One could say the same thing about compulsive arguing with those who bash Tasha's: if you don't agree with it, just ignore the post. You're not forced to engage with it.

IMO there should be two 5E forums now: Tasha's and non-Tasha's.

[Tanarii]

This is literally only one source that uses the Tasha's material, and does so in a way that makes sense given that these are all meant to derive from other cultural backgrounds anyway in addition to being dhampirs or hagspawn. Why is that such an issue?

Nobody's going around and tearing out early chapters of your Player's Handbook and forcing you to use Tasha's Cauldron of Everything now.

From the UA:
Following in that book’s footsteps, the race options in this article and in future D&D books lack the Ability Score Increase trait, the Language trait, the Alignment trait, and any other trait that is purely cultural. Racial traits henceforth reflect only the physical or magical realities of being a player character who’s a member of a particular lineage.

It's now official policy for all D&D upcoming material. I already know how I'm going to handle that, and I'll make it clear in my responses to this article. Because they never gave a chance to give feedback in the case of Tasha's Trash.

[P. G. Macer]

This is literally only one source that uses the Tasha's material, and does so in a way that makes sense given that these are all meant to derive from other cultural backgrounds anyway in addition to being dhampirs or hagspawn. Why is that such an issue?

Nobody's going around and tearing out early chapters of your Player's Handbook and forcing you to use Tasha's Cauldron of Everything now.

To quote the blurb from the UA PDF,

Following in that book’s footsteps, the race options in this article and in future D&D books lack the Ability Score Increase trait, the Language trait, the Alignment trait…

(Emphasis mine)

So even if freeform Ability Score Increases are appropriate for the lineages represented here, Wizards of the Coast currently plans to apply the allegedly “optional” Tasha’s rules to all future 5e races. If they do this going forward, then said rules are optional only in the sense that if you don’t want to use them, you are barred from using post-TCoE races as-written entirely. A non-AL DM could always try and unilaterally assign specific ASI combinations to the new races, e.g. a Hexblood always gains +2 INT and +1 CHA, but players seem likely to mutiny at that. Besides, while not quite fitting in the definition of the Oberoni Fallacy as I understand it, it does have a sniff of it and seems to derive from similar thinking.

Additionally, the new rules may be applied to races that it won’t make sense for them to apply to. I know the UA states that ASIs are now cultural, but that’s a retcon (or, if you’re being less generous, lie) if I ever saw one. Sure, some of them are cultural, like githzerai’s boost to wisdom, but when it comes to say, PHB dragonborn, I’m more doubtful.

[PhantomSoul]

Additionally, the new rules may be applied to races that it won’t make sense for them to apply to. I know the UA states that ASIs are now cultural, but that’s a retcon (or, if you’re being less generous, lie) if I ever saw one. Sure, some of them are cultural, like githzerai’s boost to wisdom, but when it comes to say, PHB dragonborn, I’m more doubtful.

And even for the gith-x boosts, it seems quite reasonably biological; they were bred by illithids for target capabilities (prior to the split into githyanki and githzerai, but that split may not even have caused this trait since they could have split along lines related to their breeding).

And if it's really about culture/training, odd how it isn't being put into temporarily "optional" backgrounds!

[MaxWilson]

From the UA:
Following in that book’s footsteps, the race options in this article and in future D&D books lack the Ability Score Increase trait, the Language trait, the Alignment trait, and any other trait that is purely cultural. Racial traits henceforth reflect only the physical or magical realities of being a player character who’s a member of a particular lineage.

It's now official policy for all D&D upcoming material. I already know how I'm going to handle that, and I'll make it clear in my responses to this article. Because they never gave a chance to give feedback in the case of Tasha's Trash.

Ironic that Orcish +2 to Str and +1 to Con is apparently considered more "purely cultural" than Aggressive.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Ironic that Orcish +2 to Str and +1 to Con is apparently considered more "purely cultural" than Aggressive.

Yeah. They're naturally aggressive, but all orc PCs are bodybuilders for some weird reason.

This all gives me even more impetus for my total racial overhaul. I won't be able to use any new races as is, and the old ones need fixing up (not only because there's a lot that aren't SRD).

[Dark.Revenant]

The amnesia thing is exactly what I want to play this race for. Bourne Identity, Cowboys and Aliens, Generator Rex are great works of fiction that use this trope.

Also, means you start the first session with no baggage that makes it hard to work with other characters (like being rival factions); your DM can tie your backstory into whatever plot hooks they like without you being to overpowered or over important when you’re too low level for it to make sense.

I feel that the amnesia thing should be distinct from the “you’re undead or a robot” thing.

[PhantomSoul]

This all gives me even more impetus for my total racial overhaul. I won't be able to use any new races as is, and the old ones need fixing up (not only because there's a lot that aren't SRD).

At least something good would come out of this!

[PhoenixPhyre]

At least something good would come out of this!

Yes, although the warthog kneels[1] really heavily, what with two ongoing campaigns and a 8-5 job.

[1] cross-forum in-joke meaning roughly "that would be too much work"

I feel that the amnesia thing should be distinct from the “you’re undead or a robot” thing.

Heck, I've got a player character right now with amnesia. Aasimar. And that's both out of character and in-character. He's letting me basically choose his entire backstory and drop it in drop by drop as the campaign goes on. And it's great, if you have trust and a good world to build on.

You could do it with any character race, really. It's more a background trait than a cultural trait (let alone a biological trait).

[PhantomSoul]

Yes, although the warthog kneels[1] really heavily, what with two ongoing campaigns and a 8-5 job.

[1] cross-forum in-joke meaning roughly "that would be too much work"

I get it, I've got a draft concept that I don't actually believe will ever exist in a final form!

[PhoenixPhyre]

I get it, I've got a draft concept that I don't actually believe will ever exist in a final form!

I think at this point I might have more draft concepts than I do real implemented homebrew concepts (other than one-off monsters and items).

I've got a partial one for races (not even the one I'm talking about here, more a half-measure), one for spell lists (almost completely removing all class-based lists in favor of thematic ones), one that moves most spells into ritual-like things, and a bunch of other stuff. All needs heavy testing and editing before it can go anywhere, but I'm a forever DM, so...

[KorvinStarmast]

Although usually the initial foot shooting is cause by declining sales, not by a moral panic.

That got me laughing.

All needs heavy testing and editing before it can go anywhere, but I'm a forever DM, so...

I went through that for years in AD&D 1e years. We need to find a game where we can as players, eh? That could be some fun.

[PhantomSoul]

I think at this point I might have more draft concepts than I do real implemented homebrew concepts (other than one-off monsters and items).

That's how you know you're a true DM! =D
(And really, things are usable once they're complete enough for play[testing] for something like races; since only a handful of races will be used at a time, you functionally don't need it to be completely finished for each race.)

I've got a partial one for races (not even the one I'm talking about here, more a half-measure), one for spell lists (almost completely removing all class-based lists in favor of thematic ones), one that moves most spells into ritual-like things, and a bunch of other stuff. All needs heavy testing and editing before it can go anywhere, but I'm a forever DM, so...

That thematic list option or a ritual-inspired system (probably with chance of failure) is what I'd love to see for Sorcerers especially (merging threads).

---

Anyhow, to touch on the Unearthed Arcana, it's pretty tough to be hopeful. The things that can work even as a newly introduced system/ruleset/variant (like second types, which I've played with in actual games) just aren't done in a way that makes it seem coherent and desirable. And these lineages at best seem like they maybe should be framed as templates not races given how much of it is described (and how often introducing their base concepts during a campaign due to a curse or a botched revivification seem more interesting).

[PhoenixPhyre]

We need to find a game where we can as players, eh? That could be some fun.

Yeah. Although a lot of my racial overhaul stuff is very world-driven, so doing that in someone else's world would be a bit strange. Doable, just odd. A lot of the class/spell stuff is more cross-world.

I see races as being the most tied in to the world itself. Much more so than classes (which aren't actually always things in world--a wizard doesn't necessarily walk around with a hat with WIZZARD on it, nor does a barbarian identify as a barbarian), spells, feats, or any of the other player-option things.

That's a large part of why I take so poorly to the Tasha's changes being more than just advice for DMs who want to make more customized races. Races belong to the world, and the world and the races have to agree well. For example, you'll never find a stock drow in my world. I highly dislike the race. There are the goroesi, the dark elves. But other than the fact that they're dark-skinned and several of their populations are underground, they're basically nothing alike. And gnomes were rightfully genocided about 250 years ago [1]

[1] not really, but it's traditional to exclaim Gno Gnomes!

That's how you know you're a true DM! =D
(And really, things are usable once they're complete enough for play[testing] for something like races; since only a handful of races will be used at a time, you functionally don't need it to be completely finished for each race.)



That thematic list option or a ritual-inspired system (probably with chance of failure) is what I'd love to see for Sorcerers especially (merging threads).

---

Anyhow, to touch on the Unearthed Arcana, it's pretty tough to be hopeful. The things that can work even as a newly introduced system/ruleset/variant (like second types, which I've played with in actual games) just aren't done in a way that makes it seem coherent and desirable. And these lineages at best seem like they maybe should be framed as templates not races given how much of it is described (and how often introducing their base concepts during a campaign due to a curse or a botched revivification seem more interesting).

Yeah. As for the full overhaul, I'm only at the basic framework stage.

Thematic stuff...well...that's another ball of mud. A draft can be seen at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing, but it's an untested (except for NPC inspiration) draft.

Rituals--my idea was to take a page out of 4e and move almost all spells that didn't need to be cast quickly (ie most non-combat ones) and pull them out of spells entirely. Instead they're incantations, which anyone can learn and use (costing time and expensive components, plus having to find and learn them). Casting classes get boons that let them do certain ones faster/cheaper/better--basically the reverse of Ritual Caster. Being able to trade spell slots for faster casting, instead of trading slower casting for not spending spell slots. Etc. The idea is to break the full-caster monopoly on utility magic, while still giving them a reason to be. Even rougher draft: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

And as far as doing the races with templates, I could see that. Building racial templates for adding on later (or even at character creation). Or an easy way to represent "raise dead gone wrong" or "touched by an angel/devil/fey and transformed". But that would require more than just "here's a new race!"

[PhantomSoul]

I see races as being the most tied in to the world itself.

Agreed!

Much more so than classes (which aren't actually always things in world--a wizard doesn't necessarily walk around with a hat with WIZZARD on it, nor does a barbarian identify as a barbarian), spells, feats, or any of the other player-option things.

Yeah, I take pleasure in describing anyone studying as a wizard in-world (regardless of class), or saying "mage"/"arcanist" as a broader category. Being called a warlock doesn't guarantee they've made a pact, and being called a sorcerer doesn't guarantee they haven't. Fighter is often just a person who fights; the rogue may be a thief and a fighter.

And gnomes were rightfully genocided about 250 years ago [1]

[1] not really, but it's traditional to exclaim Gno Gnomes!

Don't worry, thanks to recent advances in g-nomics they've been cloned and are reemerging into society!
(Jokes aside, gnomes actually were created by elves in the last great age of magic millenia ago in my world; the elves got some of the basics from discoveries about how the giants had given life to the rocks [creating dwarves] when the giants were once a major force in the world.)

(Homebrew)

I'm eager to give this a look -- and I'm intrigued by reversing the default to ritual magic. I like that idea and am curious to see how it plays out.

[KorvinStarmast]

And gnomes were rightfully genocided about 250 years ago [1]

[1] not really, but it's traditional to exclaim Gno Gnomes!

First they came for the gnomes, and I said nothing, because I was speechless with joy ... (I say this with love because I did play a gnome illusionist in AD&D 1e. He was named after a mushroom ...)

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Re-opened.

[Damon_Tor]

Ironic that Orcish +2 to Str and +1 to Con is apparently considered more "purely cultural" than Aggressive.

Or kobolds' Groveling, Cowering and Begging. Apparently tiny 30 pound lizard people have exactly the same capacity for physical strength as 400 pound elephant people, but their pathetic, sniveling cowardice is hard-wired, coded in their DNA.

[Sception]

I don't get the hate for floating ability scores, at least not on these 'lineages' specifically. Even without Tasha's, these concepts should still have floating modifiers and non-fixed languages, because they *aren't* races. They don't have cultures or customs or communities. A Damphyr could be a dwarf damphyr or a dragonborn damphyr or an elf Damphyr, and floating stats mods and languages let you do that.

Anyway, I don't really see anything terribly OP here, myself. Honestly, rather to the contrary. Even hex once per day, a variant human can grab that via a 'magic initiate' bonus feat without breaking the game. In nearly all campaigns, not needing to eat or breathe is a ribbon at best.


And the adventure time reference is fun and I like it. AT, especially in the early seasons, drew from a bunch of D&D tropes, and IME the show's popularity helped bring a lot of fresh blood into the game, so some overt nods to it are welcome. Even, imo, in darker themed content like this. Spooky doesn't have to mean super serious or non-child-friendly, quite the contrary honestly.


People need to relax and have some fun.

[Sception]

Or kobolds' Groveling, Cowering and Begging. Apparently tiny 30 pound lizard people have exactly the same capacity for physical strength as 400 pound elephant people.

Apart from that they literally don't, even with Tasha's? They can't wield as big weapons, they can't lift or carry nearly as heavy weights. Strength Score is a game number, it's not the same as in universe physical strength, which is conveyed by many other mechanics than a single modifier.

[J-H]

I don't get the hate for floating ability scores, at least not on these 'lineages' specifically. Even without Tasha's, these concepts should still have floating modifiers and non-fixed languages, because they *aren't* races. They don't have cultures or customs or communities. A Damphyr could be a dwarf damphyr or a dragonborn damphyr or an elf Damphyr, and floating stats mods and languages let you do that.

Yep, I don't have a problem with floating ability scores on this one.
I do when they say that future publications are following the Tasha's optional (and bad) rules. Tasha's was a badly-done, poorly-thought out patch job done for reasons not related to game quality, playability, and fun.

[Damon_Tor]

I don't get the hate for floating ability scores, at least not on these 'lineages' specifically. Even without Tasha's, these concepts should still have floating modifiers and non-fixed languages, because they *aren't* races. They don't have cultures or customs or communities. A Damphyr could be a dwarf damphyr or a dragonborn damphyr or an elf Damphyr, and floating stats mods and languages let you do that.

If they had just given them all floating ability bonuses I don't think anybody would have given them any **** about it. The problem is, they said "this is how this is going to be moving forward". It means that if they release their Dark Sun supplement, for example, Thri-Kreen will have floating ability scores because the only way a species of alien insectoids might be stronger, tougher or faster than a human is because of their culture.

[Amnestic]

because the only way a species of alien insectoids might be stronger, tougher or faster than a human is because of their culture.

idk I've beaten up a ton of insects in my time really easily, seems like if they wanna be better then they might need to start lifting yeah.