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    Default The Way of Zen Archery: A Mini-Guide To The Post-Tasha's Kensei

    As a result of continuing to play in a 5e game, my interest in discussing 5e's mechanics has perked back up. It's amazing what a few months of staying away from forum arguments and optimization threads does to my will to live. Anyway, on to the guide.

    The Way of Zen Archery

    The Basic Premise of This Guide
    The Kensei is a ranged subclass, and it should be built as such. Simply put, building a Kensei as a primarily melee character, rather than as a ranged character that can handle themselves in melee, throws away some of the most interesting benefits of the subclass. If you disagree with this premise, this mini-guide will not make much sense.

    OK, So Why Post Tasha's?
    Because before Tasha's came out, the Kensei was pretty naff. The new class features that Tasha's added to the Monk generally improve any Monk who wants to fight at range, but they actually synergize with a Kensei to become greater than the sum of its parts.

    The SADdest Monk
    One of the benefits of building a Kensei as a ranged character is that you don't need to pump your Wisdom up as much as a normal Monk. Normally, Monks need Wisdom for two things — Unarmored Defense and their saving-throw DC (which the Monk's core chassis only uses for Stunning Strike). However, the Kensei is one of two Monk subclasses that don't give you any new uses for Wisdom (an Internet Cookie for anyone who can name the other one), and all but one of its features work regardless of range. So if you ignore Stunning Strike (since you'll be plinking away with a bow), you basically only need Wisdom for your AC.

    However, that's another area where the Kensei gives you a tool to mitigate having a low Wisdom. A baseline Monk already doesn't have to worry about most ranged attacks (thank you, Deflect Missiles), so you really just need AC in melee... and that's where Agile Parry comes into play. You aren't supposed to use it every round — you're supposed to use it to help extract yourself from melee. With that in mind, you can easily get away with leaving your Wisdom at 14 for your whole career — an AC of 17 (that you can boost to 19 when necessary) is pretty solid for a ranged character. And, as a direct consequence of this, your ASIs open up so that you can grab some feats. You just need to accept that you're going to be kinda terrible at Stunning Strike when that comes up, but you have loads of attacks for when that comes up.

    Ki Efficiency
    Once you move out of melee range, the demands on your ki resources sharply diminish. In this guide, I'm going to outline a playstyle that requires you to spend 1 ki per round to keep up your damage output. That might sound expensive, but bear in mind that that's usually considered to be the bare minimum for a Monk. In fact, unless you grab Sharpshooter, you're unlikely to need to spend more.

    Our Secret Weapons
    Tasha's added Ki-Fueled Strike at 3rd level and Focused Aim at 5th level, which work together to make Archer Monks an interesting choice. Ki-Fueled Strike lets you make a bonus-action attack with an unarmed strike or monk weapon if you spend ki during your action, and Focused Aim lets you spend up to 3 ki after a miss to add +2 to your attack roll per point spent, potentially turning it into a hit. As a result, 5th level Monks can make three attacks with a shortbow (or longbow if they have proficiency from somewhere else), as long as they missed with at least one of those attacks. That's cool and all, but it isn't reliable.

    The Kensei changes that. Deft Strike, the feature it gives you at 6th level, lets you spend 1 ki to mini-smite once per turn if you hit with an attack. In conjunction with Focused Aim, you can guarantee three longbow attacks per round. That, in and of itself, puts you on the map as far as ranged attacking is concerned. There are a few other nuances that we'll get to, but that's the core of your ranged contributions - three longbow attacks per round, with a mini-smite and an accuracy boost in your back pocket.

    What's The Plan, Short Man?
    The "one ki per round" plan is pretty simple:
    • On your first attack, use Focused Aim if you can turn a miss into a hit with just one ki.
    • If your first attack is a crit, use Deft Strike.
    • If you didn't spend ki on your first attack, spend ki on your second attack regardless of whether or not it's a strictly optimal use. Yes, this does include using Focused Aim on misses you can't turn into hits.


    That plan of basically throwing away ki on the second attack might not initially make sense, but think about it this way: you aren't spending your ki on a useless +2 to attack rolls. You're spending ki to buy a completely new attack. Of course, this gets a little bit way more complicated once Unerring Accuracy comes into play. Being able to reroll a miss made me stop crunching the damage numbers because I was having a lot of trouble finding an optimal strategy.

    What About Kensei's Shot?
    Kensei's Shot is there just in case you don't want to spend ki on mooks. 1d8+1d4+5 (7-17, avg. 12) is decent enough damage when you just need to shoot a few goblins, and you have the flexibility to choose whether or not you want to transition into the "using ki" plan from round to round. On top of that, Kensei's Shot works really well with Sharpen the Blade if you're aiming for ki efficiency — sometimes the party puts you on mook clean-up duty.

    The Care and Sharpening of Your Blade
    Sharpen the Blade varies wildly in utility depending on your DM's attitude towards magic weapons. If you can reasonably expect to get a +X version of any weapons you want to use, it's essentially just a ribbon. On the other hand, if you're in the kind of game where magic weapons aren't guaranteed? It has some uses:
    • If you don't have your magical bow for some reason (or you lucked out and got an Oathbow for Christmas), you can spend a few ki to give yourself a pretty big boost for a longer fight.
    • If you have a magical bow, it lets you have a magical dagger/club/whip/battleaxe for whenever you're forced into melee.
    • If nothing else, it lets you get your hands on a +3 weapon as early as level 11. And hey, it's good to have the option to just have a magic weapon for those situations when the plot says that you shouldn't.


    Filling The Void
    The one major thing holding the Kensei back is that they don't get the Archery fighting style. In fact, they need to spend 1 ki to get the same benefits! Fortunately, this is pretty easy to remedy, especially post-Tasha's - you can dip a level in Fighter, two levels in Ranger, or just pick up the Fighting Initiate (Archery) feat. Of those three options, dipping into the Fighter is probably your best bet. Archery isn't strictly needed, but it's basically one free ki per near-miss.
    Last edited by Amechra; 2021-02-20 at 11:04 AM. Reason: Fixed a typo.
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    Default Re: The Way of the Zen Archery: A Mini-Guide To The Post-Tasha's Kensei

    This is cool and all, but for some reason playing a Monk that doesn't use the Monk's best feature (and some would say saving grace) doesn't appeal to me that much :P
    I'm an optimizer, so when I say something is good, that means I think that it's powerful relative to the strongest options the system offers from a mechanical standpoint.
    When I say something is bad, I do not mean that is not viable or that you shouldn't play it, only that it isn't satisfactory for high optimization tables.

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    Default Re: The Way of the Zen Archery: A Mini-Guide To The Post-Tasha's Kensei

    I definitely want to play this at some point. I particularly like how Focused Aim couples well with Sharpshooter from a feel-good perspective (not necessarily an optimization perspective)--if you have the ki points for it, you can counteract some of the risk in taking the -5/+10, possibly even triggering your Ki-Fueled Attack.

    Other stuff:
    - You can use Quickened Healing and still make a longbow attack as a bonus action. I'm skeptical about Quickened Healing ever being worth it (at level 5, it's 2 ki for 1d6+5 healing, which is not impressive), but hey, it's still possible if you really want to. Maybe at high level and you know the enemy has Power Word Kill but you're at 95 hp?
    - Kensei's Shot is good for when you run out of ki. You can't make a third attack anymore, but you can still at least add 1d4 damage to each hit. It's also good at levels 3 and 4, when you can't yet use Focused Aim or Deft Strike to use ki with your attack.

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    Default Re: The Way of the Zen Archery: A Mini-Guide To The Post-Tasha's Kensei

    Quote Originally Posted by bendking View Post
    This is cool and all, but for some reason playing a Monk that doesn't use the Monk's best feature (and some would say saving grace) doesn't appeal to me that much :P
    I wouldn't say you don't use Stunning Strike, just that you don't rely on it. If a juicy target like a beholder comes along, Wis 16 or whatever (DC 14 at level 5) absolutely won't stop you from stunning it (with its +4 Con save), you'll just have to hit it several times (2.2 times per stun, on average, vs. 1.8 times per stun if you pumped Wisdom to 20) and you'll burn ki slightly faster--but you're still better at it than any other warrior and almost any spellcaster would be.

    I will never understand why some people think you have to put all your eggs in one basket in order for that basket to be useful to you.

    And you'll be good at kiting (high movement rate) and bypassing total cover (high movement rate + wall running to shoot from unexpected angles) and resisting counterbattery fire (missile deflection with your reaction) and jumping out of windows/down from high cover (negate fall damage with your reaction) and tanking when you get caught unexpectedly (good AC + Dodge as a bonus action) and disarming monsters and then running away with their weapons and fighting when someone disarms you and sneaking around undercover and infiltrating enemy compounds by impersonating an harmless accountant or merchant while still actually being a deadly warrior, even unarmed.

    I don't want to oversell it, because Kensei is not my favorite way to play archers, but it is a fun way.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2021-01-27 at 12:51 AM.

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    Default Re: The Way of the Zen Archery: A Mini-Guide To The Post-Tasha's Kensei

    Quote Originally Posted by Pondincherry View Post
    You can use Quickened Healing and still make a longbow attack as a bonus action. I'm skeptical about Quickened Healing ever being worth it (at level 5, it's 2 ki for 1d6+5 healing, which is not impressive), but hey, it's still possible if you really want to. Maybe at high level and you know the enemy has Power Word Kill but you're at 95 hp?
    The secret here is that you don't use that healing in combat — if you think of it as the ability to spend 2 ki to "fake" having an extra hit-die, it's better than you'd think.
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    Default Re: The Way of the Zen Archery: A Mini-Guide To The Post-Tasha's Kensei

    I'm curious, how does this compare to an Arcane Archer?
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    Default Re: The Way of the Zen Archery: A Mini-Guide To The Post-Tasha's Kensei

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I will never understand why some people think you have to put all your eggs in one basket in order for that basket to use useful to you.
    Well history is replete with examples that those that diversify their strategies to handle multiple contingencies, never prosper.

    Ohh, wait...scratch that...and reverse it. 🃏

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    Default Re: The Way of the Zen Archery: A Mini-Guide To The Post-Tasha's Kensei

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderous Mojo View Post
    Well history is replete with examples that those that diversify their strategies to handle multiple contingencies, never prosper.

    Ohh, wait...scratch that...and reverse it. 🃏
    I've been thinking recently about the right way to run competitive D&D and I think one good way might be to have two sets of players run themselves against the same protocol. For example, I secretly pick five monsters, and you secretly pick five monsters, and we agree on a terrain type (e.g. indoor stone labyrinth with 20' walls, total area 200' x 200', 10' wide corridors). Then we randomly generate Xanathar-style encounters from those monsters and have both sets of PCs fight them (same monsters for both parties but the parties are in parallel universes, don't interact), with a short rest after every other two fights, until one set of PCs is all dead or fled. Whoever lasts the longest is the winner.

    I'd love to run a party of four monks through a challenge like that with somebody. Alert DD Elemonk, Alert DD Shadow Monk, and two Sharpshooter Kensei/Fighter 1s. Not optimal compared to e.g. 4 Shepherd Druids but seems like it would be very kinetic, fun, and interesting.

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    Default Re: The Way of the Zen Archery: A Mini-Guide To The Post-Tasha's Kensei

    Just would like to say: Capital work, this was exactly what I was thinking about recently and you covered all the points.

    That said, why is Fighter 1 the best option to get Archery Fighting Style? You can’t wear the armor, delay key monk levels and you only get second wind for your troubles. I personally would go for the feat myself (doable at lvl 1 with vHuman).

    Am I missing something?
    Last edited by prototype00; 2021-01-27 at 03:19 AM.

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    Default Re: The Way of the Zen Archery: A Mini-Guide To The Post-Tasha's Kensei

    You get the longbow maybe?

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    Default Re: The Way of the Zen Archery: A Mini-Guide To The Post-Tasha's Kensei

    Don't forget that you can get AC from other sources as well. MI gives you mage armor, giving you a better AC and allowing you to toss Wisdom out entirely.

    Also Locathah, Lizardfolk, Loxodon's, and Tortle all give new AC calculations as well that do the trick. Which allows you to boost your Con very high to make sure that you can take abuse when you get hit by it.
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    Default Re: The Way of the Zen Archery: A Mini-Guide To The Post-Tasha's Kensei

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    I'm curious, how does this compare to an Arcane Archer?
    They deal a little less damage round-to-round when neither of them is using their abilities. The big difference is that the Kensei is much more about keeping up steady round-to-round pressure, while the Arcane Archer focuses on doing cool extra things a few times per rest.

    Honestly, though, I don't have much experience with Arcane Archers, so that's more of a conjecture on my part.

    Quote Originally Posted by prototype00 View Post
    Just would like to say: Capital work, this was exactly what I was thinking about recently and you covered all the points.

    That said, why is Fighter 1 the best option to get Archery Fighting Style? You can’t wear the armor, delay key monk levels and you only get second wind for your troubles. I personally would go for the feat myself (doable at lvl 1 with vHuman).

    Am I missing something?
    The problem with picking up the feat is that it's generally not as good as getting +2 Dex if you don't have maxed-out Dexterity yet. As a result, you're looking at waiting until 12th level to pick it up, or you're playing a Vhuman/custom lineage... and at that point, why aren't you taking Sharpshooter?

    Fighter's really your best bet because it's the most painless option in the early game, not because it drowns you in goodies. I'd honestly suggest Ranger instead (since its features synergize so much better), but that delays hitting 6th level and picking up Deft Strike by an additional level, which is way more awkward.

    Quote Originally Posted by nickl_2000 View Post
    Don't forget that you can get AC from other sources as well. MI gives you mage armor, giving you a better AC and allowing you to toss Wisdom out entirely.

    Also Locathah, Lizardfolk, Loxodon's, and Tortle all give new AC calculations as well that do the trick. Which allows you to boost your Con very high to make sure that you can take abuse when you get hit by it.
    I'm not too sure about nabbing Magic Initiate, since it's not like you're going to want to dump Wisdom (due to Perception and Wisdom Saves), so Mage Armor is going to come out to be +2 AC at best. Which sounds nice, but I'm not sure that's a good use of an ASI in the early game, since your primary focus is "being out of the action, not getting hit".

    For the other options:

    • Loxodons are, as far as I'm concerned, a trap. Not only do you need Con 16 to match a normal Monk with Dex 16 and Wis 14, you also don't improve your AC by increasing your Dexterity. Which you'll want to do.
    • Locathah give you the equivalent of Wis 14 for the purposes of AC. That's not a great payoff, at least in my opinion.
    • Tortles just straight-up give you AC 17, which is equivalent to a Wis of 18 at 1st level, or a Wis of 14 when your Dexterity is maxed out. This is a pretty solid choice.
    • Lizardfolk give you the equivalent of Wis 16. Now we're talking.


    My only issue is that none of these options work that well stat-wise if you aren't using the Tasha's "you can rearrange your ASIs however you like" rules, since the Locathah is the only one that can start you off with Dex 16. If nothing else. a solid Dex is the one stat you really want. To add insult to injury, Tortles and Lizardfolk give you bonuses to Wisdom instead of Dexterity.
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    Default Re: The Way of the Zen Archery: A Mini-Guide To The Post-Tasha's Kensei

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post

    I'm not too sure about nabbing Magic Initiate, since it's not like you're going to want to dump Wisdom (due to Perception and Wisdom Saves), so Mage Armor is going to come out to be +2 AC at best. Which sounds nice, but I'm not sure that's a good use of an ASI in the early game, since your primary focus is "being out of the action, not getting hit".

    For the other options:

    • Loxodons are, as far as I'm concerned, a trap. Not only do you need Con 16 to match a normal Monk with Dex 16 and Wis 14, you also don't improve your AC by increasing your Dexterity. Which you'll want to do.
    • Locathah give you the equivalent of Wis 14 for the purposes of AC. That's not a great payoff, at least in my opinion.
    • Tortles just straight-up give you AC 17, which is equivalent to a Wis of 18 at 1st level, or a Wis of 14 when your Dexterity is maxed out. This is a pretty solid choice.
    • Lizardfolk give you the equivalent of Wis 16. Now we're talking.


    My only issue is that none of these options work that well stat-wise if you aren't using the Tasha's "you can rearrange your ASIs however you like" rules, since the Locathah is the only one that can start you off with Dex 16. If nothing else. a solid Dex is the one stat you really want. To add insult to injury, Tortles and Lizardfolk give you bonuses to Wisdom instead of Dexterity.
    It's just one other way that you can build a character that doesn't need to put much into Wisdom, but yes you are completely right that these options depend on the table allowing Tasha's stat switching. However, since you were allowing the Tasha's other Monk options it seemed with a shot and worth mentioning.
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    Default Re: The Way of the Zen Archery: A Mini-Guide To The Post-Tasha's Kensei

    Another consideration for any kensei build is looking at 1 level war cleric. It's less good on other monks, but kensei makes pretty solid use. Especially a ranged one as you'd be making fewer concentration saves. The wis mod number of bonus action weapon attacks helps save ki as well, opening up an extra potential crit to smite on as well

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    Default Re: The Way of the Zen Archery: A Mini-Guide To The Post-Tasha's Kensei

    Quote Originally Posted by nickl_2000 View Post
    It's just one other way that you can build a character that doesn't need to put much into Wisdom, but yes you are completely right that these options depend on the table allowing Tasha's stat switching. However, since you were allowing the Tasha's other Monk options it seemed with a shot and worth mentioning.
    True! I just feel like I've seen more acceptance of the Monk options than of the stat-switching. It's still worth a shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarytincan View Post
    Another consideration for any kensei build is looking at 1 level war cleric. It's less good on other monks, but kensei makes pretty solid use. Especially a ranged one as you'd be making fewer concentration saves. The wis mod number of bonus action weapon attacks helps save ki as well, opening up an extra potential crit to smite on as well
    I hadn't thought about War Cleric - it would definitely give you a few "free" bonus action attacks, and picking up some 1st level spells is definitely a nice idea. My only real reservation is that you'd effectively be wasting your heavy armor proficiency.
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    Default Re: The Way of the Zen Archery: A Mini-Guide To The Post-Tasha's Kensei

    Very nice, thank you for writing this. I think this can be a very fun type of character.

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    Default Re: The Way of the Zen Archery: A Mini-Guide To The Post-Tasha's Kensei

    I feel like the biggest problem with a fighter dip is that every level you'll be asking yourself "why not get another level of fighter?" And then at some point you'll wind up a fighter with a monk dip and not the other way around.

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    Default Re: The Way of the Zen Archery: A Mini-Guide To The Post-Tasha's Kensei

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon_Tor View Post
    I feel like the biggest problem with a fighter dip is that every level you'll be asking yourself "why not get another level of fighter?" And then at some point you'll wind up a fighter with a monk dip and not the other way around.
    I wouldn't expect that to happen. Let's say you're already a Kensei 5 with Sharpshooter, considering Kensei 6 vs. Fighter levels. Fighter 1 gets you Archery style (and Second Wind, which has minor significance at best), improving your accuracy, plus a medium armor option for +2 to AC (AC 17ish => AC 19 in half-plate, +2 from Agile Parry) that may or may not ever be needed but doesn't really interfere with your archery, only your movement and unarmed strikes. Kensei 6 would get you magical weapons and Deft Strike, allowing you to spend ki for d6 more damage and a bonus attack. Both are defensible but let's say you take Fighter 1. Fighter 2 would get you Action Surge for an extra 2 attacks per short rest, but Kensei 6 would get you an extra six attacks per short rest plus 6d6 in Deft Strike damage. It's a natural stopping point.

    It might be different if you start out Fighter 1 right off the bat and are tempted to just play a straight EK or Samurai, which are also excellent archers, but Kensei 5 doesn't actually gain all that much from Fighter 2-10, and meanwhile he's delaying all kinds of monk progressions including Empty Body.

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    Default Re: The Way of the Zen Archery: A Mini-Guide To The Post-Tasha's Kensei

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post



    I hadn't thought about War Cleric - it would definitely give you a few "free" bonus action attacks, and picking up some 1st level spells is definitely a nice idea. My only real reservation is that you'd effectively be wasting your heavy armor proficiency.
    It's a redundancy sure, but most multiclassing has some redundant inefficiencies here and there. Getting shield of faith, and most importantly, divine favor on a monk with all those monk attacks... Juicy. Also gives martial weapons. The bonus action attacks are frankly the 'gravy' part of the dip, and still some nice gravy to boot. Might be better domains for most monks but kensei would be hard pressed for a better dip imo :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    I hadn't thought about War Cleric - it would definitely give you a few "free" bonus action attacks, and picking up some 1st level spells is definitely a nice idea. My only real reservation is that you'd effectively be wasting your heavy armor proficiency.
    Or, just wear the armor, until you have 20 dex/16 wis. You lose your speed, sure... but I don't think it'd impact your combat cycle otherwise. Assumes you have strength to wear full plate, though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quietus View Post
    Or, just wear the armor, until you have 20 dex/16 wis. You lose your speed, sure... but I don't think it'd impact your combat cycle otherwise. Assumes you have strength to wear full plate, though.
    Why be a monk then? If you are going to be in full plate and shooting a bow, be a fighter with XBE. It's much easier to get 3 attacks at level 5 and 5 attacks at level 20.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickl_2000 View Post
    Why be a monk then? If you are going to be in full plate and shooting a bow, be a fighter with XBE. It's much easier to get 3 attacks at level 5 and 5 attacks at level 20.
    Because eventually you can shed your outer shell and be a glorious, shining monk? Realistically you're likely to hit the point of 20/16 by level 8, maybe 12 at worst. 8 isn't much time to use full plate. Also, you get other things like catching arrows, etc. The main things you lose for wearing armor are your martial arts (dice and bonus action unarmed strike), speed, and unarmored defense. Everything else remains untouched, including flurry of blows.
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  23. - Top - End - #23

    Default Re: The Way of the Zen Archery: A Mini-Guide To The Post-Tasha's Kensei

    Quote Originally Posted by nickl_2000 View Post
    Why be a monk then?
    Patient Defense, Agile Parry, Missile Deflection, Slow Fall, Stunning Strike, Kensei's Shot, Evasion, Sharpen the Blade, Empty Body, (and potentially Focused Aim and Quickened Healing, if the DM allows it) plus all those times when you're not wearing plate armor and want to use your higher mobility like wall crawling, especially in Tier 3 when your unarmored AC is competitive with nonmagical plate anyway. Darth Vader fits this model--he isn't particularly agile in his armor most of the time but he can catch blaster bolts, just like a monk, and he's good with a Finesse weapon (lightsaber obviously supports Dex fighting).

    Plus, sometimes you just don't want to be a fighter, any more than you want to be shooting 30 arrows per turn as a mid-level Necromancer. There's more than one way to be an archer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quietus View Post
    Because eventually you can shed your outer shell and be a glorious, shining monk? Realistically you're likely to hit the point of 20/16 by level 8, maybe 12 at worst. 8 isn't much time to use full plate. Also, you get other things like catching arrows, etc. The main things you lose for wearing armor are your martial arts (dice and bonus action unarmed strike), speed, and unarmored defense. Everything else remains untouched, including flurry of blows.
    Yes, although Flurry of Blows relies on unarmed strikes, which have to be Str-based when you're armored, so unless you're a high-Str monk (like a Paladin/Monk Sith Lord) you might be better off spending that ki on Patient Defense instead to buy you more rounds of regular attacks with a rapier.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2021-01-27 at 05:36 PM.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2017

    Default Re: The Way of the Zen Archery: A Mini-Guide To The Post-Tasha's Kensei

    This is a really fun sounding way to play a monk. Never thought much of playing one purely at range (or mainly even). The war cleric dip sounds fun too, a lot of cool character concepts to play into as well. Dipping rogue or ranger come to mind for other multi classes, sneak attack or hunter's mark on those attacks could really rack up the damage. Flavor wise I also like samurai fighter with the kensei. Don't have everything in front of me atm but I will definitely be looking at other multi class options for it later

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2013

    Default Re: The Way of the Zen Archery: A Mini-Guide To The Post-Tasha's Kensei

    Quote Originally Posted by prototype00 View Post
    Just would like to say: Capital work, this was exactly what I was thinking about recently and you covered all the points.

    That said, why is Fighter 1 the best option to get Archery Fighting Style? You can’t wear the armor, delay key monk levels and you only get second wind for your troubles. I personally would go for the feat myself (doable at lvl 1 with vHuman).

    Am I missing something?
    Personally I feel the fighter dip is worth being able to choose something else with your ASIs or bonus feats.

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