OOTS #1224 - The Discussion Thread

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I like Roy's speculation that the trap is also designed to keep something in; that's not even something I would have considered prior to now. Also, poor O-Chul and Lien

Yay, new comic for my birthday! I hope the paladins get help soon!

Happy Birthday!

[talkamancer]

Is there a defined idea as to what the fumes/steam in the last panel is, does it look like anything from previous strips?

I assumed it was the snarl.

[Peelee]

Is there a defined idea as to what the fumes/steam in the last panel is, does it look like anything from previous strips?

There's at least one theory.

Are those fumes from acid? Is it acid? I'm guessing acid. Get a nice Indiana Jones "acid, why did it have to be acid" moment from O-Chul and all.

I assumed it was the snarl.

I'll take that bet.

[Hiro Quester]

Dang, Roy, shouldn't have said that. Plans never work when you say them out loud.

Glad to see Lien and O-Chul are (relatively) okay.

I think we’re going to cut away to Lien and O-Chul, and miss the ambush preparations.

That way we don’t break Elan’s rule. We won’t know the details of the ambush plan, so it will still have the required dramatic tension.

[Fyraltari]

I assumed it was the snarl.

The Snarl is purple and blue, this is yellow/green and gray.

[cybishop]

I logged in for the first time in a very long time to point something out. I hope Haley's ambush doesn't involve grappling Xykon. That's one way the plan could backfire.

[hewhosaysfish]

Is there a defined idea as to what the fumes/steam in the last panel is, does it look like anything from previous strips?

Very toxic sulphur fumes?

[Gnoman]

„Just realized how bad the Order's current plan could turn out. If Haley actually kills the trap, they will have to absolutely steamroll Team Evil, lest they find the real corridor. (Of course, if she only bypasses it again, half the problem is solved, but the issue that they may alert Team Evil that they've been missing something in the dungeons if they are spotted emerging from the door would still be there.)”

Note that the Order had no idea there was anything wrong until Roy's attack failed to connect. This means the tunnels are similar enough to have no giveaway that the trap was disabled.

Note also that the entire reason that Xykon and Redcloak are in this tunnel is that they were chasing Durkon.

So, you're chasing a dwarf and are suddenly attacked from behind by that dwarf's known allies. Either this is the result of a trap so subtle and well made that you went through it repeatedly without noticing, or else the dwarf led you into a preplanned ambush. Which is going to seem more likely?

[Rules Lawyer #1]

Nice strip. Ochul's expression is a great counter point to the optimism.

Interesting plan by OotS... putting all their eggs into the surprise basket. When Team Evil beats them, they will have revealed the location of the true entrance. Should be fun!

[Finagle]

I only started reading the forums this last week... but it seems like strips 1223 and 1224 sort of speak directly to some of the discussions here. Is that typical? Gives the strips some added dimension...

The author swears up and down he does not read the forum and has not read it in years. And yet time and time again, the comic directly addresses issues or inconsistencies raised in the forum.

[CaptainMendax]

I find O-Chul's expression hilarious. "God dang it, not this imprisoned crap again."

Might not be what Rich intended, but it made me chuckle.

[Fyraltari]

I logged in for the first time in a very long time to point something out. I hope Haley's ambush doesn't involve grappling Xykon. That's one way the plan could backfire.

It won't because nobody wants to have to make sense of the grappling rules.
Did I make my D&D joke right?

The author swears up and down he does not read the forum and has not read it in years. And yet time and time again, the comic directly addresses issues or inconsistencies raised in the forum.

The issues raised on this forum are raised in response to the content of the comic, Rich, knowing what is in the comic, is very well placed to guess ahead of time what issues would pop up in the mind of the readers and answer them.

[Metastachydium]

Note that the Order had no idea there was anything wrong until Roy's attack failed to connect. This means the tunnels are similar enough to have no giveaway that the trap was disabled.

Note also that the entire reason that Xykon and Redcloak are in this tunnel is that they were chasing Durkon.

So, you're chasing a dwarf and are suddenly attacked from behind by that dwarf's known allies. Either this is the result of a trap so subtle and well made that you went through it repeatedly without noticing, or else the dwarf led you into a preplanned ambush. Which is going to seem more likely?

I'd put it differently: you chase a dwarf, the dwarf runs into a tunnel. The dwarf then disappear, and neither your True Seeing, nor your worg can locate 'em. Then suddenly, as you leave the tunnel, the dwarf emerges from it having grown half an army and the floor of the tunnel is visibly discoloured.
Redcloak would definitely conclude that something's fishy.

[danielxcutter]

Ambushing Team Evil right after they come out, probably weakened, isn't that bad of a plan, but the problem is that if you do the math Xykon is at the level where he should be able to curbstomp them with absolute ease. Even his minimum CR is on the level of a Solar and less restrictive estimates range in the high 20s or even low 30s.

Even ignoring the admittedly imprecise CR system... what are they going to do against him?

• The closest thing to Roy's Spellsplinter Maneuver in the rules is Mage Slayer, which prevents the target from casting defensively and thus actually having to make Concentration checks. Except Xykon is undead and therefore uses his Charisma instead of his Constitution. Roy can hit pretty hard, but he's not ignoring Xykon's DR. So if the SSM remotely works like that then he's going to have trouble disrupting Xykon's spells. And any rounds spent readying an attack are rounds he's not smashing Xykon's skull in.
• Durkon can bypass Xykon's DR effortlessly, but the problem is hitting. He's so behind on levels from the rest of the Order he's practically a cohort. And while clerics can buff their melee prowess to ridiculous amounts, that typically takes a few rounds without Persistent or Quicken Spell, feats Durkon's never shown - and he's certainly not going to have the rounds to cast those in combat, or maybe even the spell slots. Minrah is going to be doing even less against Xykon.
• Haley and Belkar are basically useless because they're going to be doing at most single-digit damage against him. Elan can use bardic music at least, but the rest of his spells don't really work against Xykon.
• Few spells V can cast or possibly will ever cast have much effect on Xykon. Blasting's out aside from Magic Missile, enchantments are out since he's undead, the Hand spells can't do anything due to those new Boots of Freedom of Movement Xykon got in the dungeons and even things like Forcecage both prevent the rest of the Order from attacking him and also can be bypassed by Xykon just teleporting out of them. Not to mention that the IFCC can yoink them out of the fight whenever they want to. They might have learned Sunburst, but there's only so many they can prepare and Xykon's going to make them his primary target if they use it.

And this is just his defensive capabilities, let alone what his allies can do.

Honestly, if this was an actual game and not a story, I'd probably call BS. It's why I'm betting Xykon gets defeated once and for all because Roy bull rushes him into the Rift and the Snarl eats him.

[TuringTest]

And yes, ambushing Xykon from behind as he exits the dungeon is a winning move - just so long as whatever is being kept inside by the teleport trap doesn't show up first. Or during.

Why has it not occurred to Redcloak or Oona that those wooden doors wouldn't stop the monsters they are fighting in the dungeons? What keeps the monsters from coming out?

I'd say that's a very common trope of tabletop roleplaying

The monsters NEVER go out the dungeon unless they're chasing the PJS, it's a dragon on patrol that may return any minute now, or they're goblins raiding the countryside before the start of the adventure (thus generating rumors for the PJs to follow).

[Rogar Demonblud]

The author swears up and down he does not read the forum and has not read it in years. And yet time and time again, the comic directly addresses issues or inconsistencies raised in the forum.

That's because the Playgrounders are very predictable.

[Lord Torath]

• The closest thing to Roy's Spellsplinter Maneuver in the rules is Mage Slayer, which prevents the target from casting defensively and thus actually having to make Concentration checks. Except Xykon is undead and therefore uses his Charisma instead of his Constitution. Roy can hit pretty hard, but he's not ignoring Xykon's DR. So if the SSM remotely works like that then he's going to have trouble disrupting Xykon's spells. And any rounds spent readying an attack are rounds he's not smashing Xykon's skull in.

Roy's sword is Starmetal, and Xykon doesn't seem to have damage reduction against it (p2). Plus there's that green glow that is "particularly harmful to the undead."

[gatemansgc]

Wow! I wasn't expecting another so quickly! Amazing!

i know, right? first time i open firefox when i bring my computer out of sleep (after doing my stuff in icedragon and cyberfox) i check OOTS, IG and reddit! i also open a wikipedia tab in case i wanna RC patrol for vandalism.

i was not expecting another out of nowhere even though i go through the motions of checking several times per day.

i mean i'm probably one of the few here who doesn't play D&D at all yet i'm addicted to this comic XD

also it's nice to see lien and o'chul again :D they've been away since comic 1189!

[Fyraltari]

i mean i'm probably one of the few here who doesn't play D&D at all yet i'm addicted to this comic XD

I couldn't say wether non-D&D players are majority on this forum, but I definitely think we are a majority of the comic's readers.

[hungrycrow]

I think the most interesting piece of information here is that Green and Orange have facilities for taking prisoners, presumably within walking/flying distance of the Monster Hollow.

[BruceGee]

So usually I'd say there's no chance of this ambush plan working... But I'm thinking it will.

I'm putting my quatloos on "no chance at all of it working," mainly for the reasons Elan gave a few strips ago -- too soon, too many players who haven't put their pieces on the board yet to have the big epic confrontation. Plus isn't it practically a bardic law that the heroes must make their final stand from a position of desperation and hopeless odds, not from a position of strength?

[bguy]

Ambushing Team Evil right after they come out, probably weakened, isn't that bad of a plan, but the problem is that if you do the math Xykon is at the level where he should be able to curbstomp them with absolute ease. Even his minimum CR is on the level of a Solar and less restrictive estimates range in the high 20s or even low 30s.

Even ignoring the admittedly imprecise CR system... what are they going to do against him?

• The closest thing to Roy's Spellsplinter Maneuver in the rules is Mage Slayer, which prevents the target from casting defensively and thus actually having to make Concentration checks. Except Xykon is undead and therefore uses his Charisma instead of his Constitution. Roy can hit pretty hard, but he's not ignoring Xykon's DR. So if the SSM remotely works like that then he's going to have trouble disrupting Xykon's spells. And any rounds spent readying an attack are rounds he's not smashing Xykon's skull in.
• Durkon can bypass Xykon's DR effortlessly, but the problem is hitting. He's so behind on levels from the rest of the Order he's practically a cohort. And while clerics can buff their melee prowess to ridiculous amounts, that typically takes a few rounds without Persistent or Quicken Spell, feats Durkon's never shown - and he's certainly not going to have the rounds to cast those in combat, or maybe even the spell slots. Minrah is going to be doing even less against Xykon.
• Haley and Belkar are basically useless because they're going to be doing at most single-digit damage against him. Elan can use bardic music at least, but the rest of his spells don't really work against Xykon.
• Few spells V can cast or possibly will ever cast have much effect on Xykon. Blasting's out aside from Magic Missile, enchantments are out since he's undead, the Hand spells can't do anything due to those new Boots of Freedom of Movement Xykon got in the dungeons and even things like Forcecage both prevent the rest of the Order from attacking him and also can be bypassed by Xykon just teleporting out of them. Not to mention that the IFCC can yoink them out of the fight whenever they want to. They might have learned Sunburst, but there's only so many they can prepare and Xykon's going to make them his primary target if they use it.

And this is just his defensive capabilities, let alone what his allies can do.

Honestly, if this was an actual game and not a story, I'd probably call BS. It's why I'm betting Xykon gets defeated once and for all because Roy bull rushes him into the Rift and the Snarl eats him.

On the other hand the Order knows what kind of spells Xykon has and can pretty effectively defend itself against his two favored attack spells (Energy Drain and Meteor Swarm). Durkon's Mass Energy Drain will neutralize Energy Drain and wide casting of Protection from Energy (Fire) will largely negate Meteor Swarm. (Yes, the Order would still take bludgeoning damage from Xykon's meteors, but the bludgeoning damage (which is only going to be 2d6 X 4) is pretty minor damage for a 9th level spell.) And while Xykon can debuff the Order's protections the round he is doing that is a round where he is not directly attacking the Order which means they are essentially guaranteed at least 2 rounds of attacks on him before he even starts to do any real damage them (three if they get a surprise round.) Roy and Durkon can do a lot of damage to Xykon with two or three rounds of free attacks.

And while its true that Belkar, Haley, and V can't really do much damage to Xykon himself, they can certainly be effective against Redcloak, Oona, and Greyview. (Indeed with Power Word Stun, V has a real good shot at neutralizing Redcloak in the very first round.)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The issues raised on this forum are raised in response to the content of the comic, Rich, knowing what is in the comic, is very well placed to guess ahead of time what issues would pop up in the mind of the readers and answer them.

Furthermore, it is also relatively easy to find comics answering questions that the forum never asked, demonstrating that Rich isn't reading the forum to know what to answer, but instead predicts the kind of questions that might be in any reader's minds (whether they are forum members or not) and tries to address them.

Thinking that Rich adds text to answer the forum, I feel, is egotism of the highest degree. We aren't that crucial to Rich's writing process. We are, in fact, utterly irrelevant to it.

Grey Wolf

[Rogar Demonblud]

Not quite. We do pay for it by buying stuff.

*goes to look for interesting stuff at CafePress*

[cybishop]

Even ignoring the admittedly imprecise CR system... what are they going to do against him?

With our outside-universe knowledge as readers, the Order's best strategy is probably to drag Redcloak and optionally also Oona through the booby trap and kill or at least incapacitate them while Xykon is cut off from them. Redcloak has already used a few high-level spell slots. That multi-dimensional stone probably also interferes with Word of Recall so he might not be able to retreat. This puts Team Evil's plan for the gate on hold indefinitely, because they need a high-level divine caster, and leaves the Order much better off and Team Evil much worse off in the next encounter.

With only their in-universe knowledge, they'll probably focus on whichever of Team Evil looks the most damaged and try to finish them off. This is essentially a gamble on how Team Evil's dungeon delve goes. It's assuming Team Evil gets in serious fights to begin with. They just opened their second door with a big red X on it and presumably are finding it occupied by monsters. This should make them very suspicious about their search. They might fight one oddly large rat and regroup. That would be bad for the Order's plan.

So maybe they'll start off with the second thing, notice it's not going well after they're already in combat, and exploit the booby trap as an escape plan?

[gatemansgc]

Roy's sword is Starmetal, and Xykon doesn't seem to have damage reduction against it (p2). Plus there's that green glow that is "particularly harmful to the undead."

also of course the giant has stated before that he goes by the basic rules of the game unless they'd get in the way of the story. story is everything and it's paid off in such a great webcomic!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Not quite. We do pay for it by buying stuff.

*goes to look for interesting stuff at CafePress*

That is important to the comic as an enterprise (although I prefer the efficiency of subscribing to his Patreon, my economic teacher always insisted that regular, smaller predictable payments are preferable to larger singular unpredictable ones), but not to the writing process itself. Yes, yes, "one must have a roof above one's head and a belly full to write" and the like, but if Rich were to explain his writing process (and indeed, I think he has), there is no "check the forums to see what questions have arisen needing an answer" step.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Thinking that Rich adds text to answer the forum, I feel, is egotism of the highest degree.

Grey Wolf

Speaking as someone who regularly exercises egotism of the highest degree, I feel like this is egotism of a slightly smaller degree.

[RblDiver]

Minor point of order, I know he at least occasionally checks at least the first page of forum notes. There have been times people've pointed out some inconsistency that he's then corrected, but yeah few and far between and not to a significant degree :P

[Drake Halfmoon]

On the other hand the Order knows what kind of spells Xykon has and can pretty effectively defend itself against his two favored attack spells (Energy Drain and Meteor Swarm). Durkon's Mass Energy Drain will neutralize Energy Drain and wide casting of Protection from Energy (Fire) will largely negate Meteor Swarm. (Yes, the Order would still take bludgeoning damage from Xykon's meteors, but the bludgeoning damage (which is only going to be 2d6 X 4) is pretty minor damage for a 9th level spell.) And while Xykon can debuff the Order's protections the round he is doing that is a round where he is not directly attacking the Order which means they are essentially guaranteed at least 2 rounds of attacks on him before he even starts to do any real damage them (three if they get a surprise round.) Roy and Durkon can do a lot of damage to Xykon with two or three rounds of free attacks.

And while its true that Belkar, Haley, and V can't really do much damage to Xykon himself, they can certainly be effective against Redcloak, Oona, and Greyview. (Indeed with Power Word Stun, V has a real good shot at neutralizing Redcloak in the very first round.)

I assume you meant Durkon's Mass Death Ward. Problem is, Xykon can simply use Superb Dispelling and that will be that. And it won't protect them whatsoever from physical damage which Oona and Greyview dish out in bulk. I think the X-factor here is the Monster in the Darkness. He knows they are friends of O-Chul, and O-Chul's friends are effectively his friends. Additionally, the Order have knowledge that could "upset the balance" between Redcloak and Xykon, namely Redcloak's true intentions. This falls back in line with the MitD since Xykon instilled a mental command to eat Redcloak should he ever betray him.

I know if Redcloak dies, that would likely doom any chance of getting the Dark One's aid, but I think there's another deity who could be used instead.