OOTS #1224 - The Discussion Thread

[Jasdoif]

It won't because nobody wants to have to make sense of the grappling rules.

If anyone casts freedom of movement, you'll know why.

---

The issues raised on this forum are raised in response to the content of the comic, Rich, knowing what is in the comic, is very well placed to guess ahead of time what issues would pop up in the mind of the readers and answer them.

Indeed.

Lol. My thoughts EXACTLY.
I expect to see some Author Commentary in the next book on this very page; "Now everyone on the forums had their panties in a twist with what Crystal was, how she got there, and who brought her back. There was so much arguing and speculation, I decided "Screw IT!" and just cast 'Summon Plot Exposition!"

No. More like when I introduce something that's not immediately apparent, I always have a plan for, at some point, explaining what's going on—it's just that everyone spends all their energy arguing about it from the moment it shows up that by the time I get around to explaining, everyone else is so sick of arguing and speculation that they project their feelings on to me.

I'm explaining these things now because to not do so at some point would be a glaring omission, nothing more. What people speculate about on the forum doesn't really matter to me very much. If I really just wanted to shut up forum-goers, I would just post a clarification here, not spend comic time explaining something that I don't think needs explaining.

For example, people have been confused about how Bozzok found them, and I assure you no explanation is forthcoming in the comic beyond the information already revealed, because it can be easily deduced and it doesn't need further dwelling upon for the story to make sense.

---

I couldn't say wether non-D&D players are majority on this forum, but I definitely think we are a majority of the comic's readers.

The Giant said "More than half of the readers of OOTS do not play D&D at all", and that was nine years ago.

[Peelee]

I assume you meant Durkon's Mass Death Ward. Problem is, Xykon can simply use Superb Dispelling and that will be that.

Using a 7th level spell slot to make Xykon burn an epic level spell slot sounds pretty dang efficient to me.

[Snails]

also of course the giant has stated before that he goes by the basic rules of the game unless they'd get in the way of the story. story is everything and it's paid off in such a great webcomic!

Rich has an excellent command of the rules, as he was a D&D game designer for a short stint. But he does not remember everything, and makes mistakes, occasionally.

The big reason he does not get into tracking minutia is he wants his story to be understandable by anyone with general knowledge of the genre (e.g. a once casual player of some other edition who never played 3e). So relying on details from 3e splatbooks is right out (with a few exceptions for narrow jokes or mining for ideas). He wants his story to be recognizable as a kind of literature, not a super long game session he made up.

[Edric O]

I realize I'm one strip late, but I just want to pat myself on the back for having guessed exactly what was going to happen back on strip #1221:

Wait... why is everyone talking about the Order possibly being plane shifted or teleported (and the evidence against this)? I thought the function of the Entrance Trap was obvious: You get teleported if you step through it while it's active. The corridor with the yellowish floor, where the Order is currently located, is the one actually inside the mountain, the one actually behind the door. So the Order didn't go anywhere. They are exactly where they think they are. The corridor with the dark(er) green floor, matching the first few meters behind the entrance, isn't actually inside the mountain - it's in a different location, and you get teleported to that location when you pass through the active trap. Also, the active trap makes you see this remote location when looking in from the entrance, rather than seeing what is actually there (the yellowish floor).

So all of the dungeons that Team Evil cleared, are not actually located inside the mountain. They are places that Team Evil got teleported to. The Gate isn't at the end of any of the dungeons because the dungeons are not what is actually behind the doors. The first people to see what is actually behind one of the doors are the Order.

Now that the trap is active again, when Team Evil opens the door they will see what the Order originally saw - the corridor with the dark(er) green floor - and they will get teleported into that corridor by the trap. The Order will see them vanish as they walk past the trap line.

Well, okay, maybe not quite exactly what was going to happen...

Then the Order will realize what's going on (once the initial shock wears off), they will explore the real corridor that they are in, and they will find... something. Not the Gate, I assume, but something else that's actually hidden inside this mountain. Presumably something related to the mysterious voices that took Lien and O-Chul.

...but really close!

[TheNecrocomicon]

I'm putting my quatloos on "no chance at all of it working," mainly for the reasons Elan gave a few strips ago -- too soon, too many players who haven't put their pieces on the board yet to have the big epic confrontation. Plus isn't it practically a bardic law that the heroes must make their final stand from a position of desperation and hopeless odds, not from a position of strength?

Both the big confrontations in the last book, by all rights, should have had the Order in a position of strength. There was the fight against Lurkon and a few lesser vampire spawn, and it got horribly bungled and briefly outright lost, because nobody in the party outside of Roy can really resist vampiric domination, and those around who could (i.e. Hilgya) must have rolled badly on their save.

Then there was the final fight at the Council chambers, where the Order had the backing of an entire clan of dwarven characters with class levels. They toasted a freakin' nightcrawler, of all things, without breaking much of a sweat, nor were the dominated guards much of an obstacle either. Durkon merely had to get inside with his magically empowered hammer to end the vampires' plan with a single stroke.

If anyone casts freedom of movement, you'll know why.

What, like on a routine basis, maybe? And then two strips later, Xykon has new boots that do the same thing?

[Jasdoif]

What, like on a routine basis, maybe? And then two strips later, Xykon has new boots that do the same thing?

Exactly! And then there's the ring. So many ways to say "the grappling rules aren't worth using" in-universe.

[bguy]

I assume you meant Durkon's Mass Death Ward. Problem is, Xykon can simply use Superb Dispelling and that will be that.

Yes, Xykon can cast Superb Dispelling but again a round he is doing that is a round he is not damaging the Order (and in fact is doing 10d6 damage to himself). So first round Xykon casts Energy Drain and sees it fizzle. Second round, he casts Superb Dispelling. He doesn't even begin to start doing damage to the Order until the third round.

Conversely Roy is pounding on Xykon each round. Roy is high enough level to get at least 3 attacks per round and per the Class and Level Geekery Thread he has a strength score of at least 29 and is using a +5 weapon which he wields two handed for which he has weapon specialization. That means Roy is doing damage of 2d6 +20 per hit + whatever damage the green fire effect does to undead. Assuming he is able to hit at least two out three attacks per round that means he should be able to do at least 50 points of damage to Xykon per round, so with two rounds of essentially free attacks, Roy by himself will have already done somewhere around 100 points of damage to Xykon. We don't know exactly how many HPs Xykon has, but it's doubtful its much over 200 and could be much less. (Liches don't get a CON bonus after all, so even if we assume Xykon is as high as 30th level, if he is only getting an average number of HPs per level (6.5) then he would only have 195 HPs). That means in just two rounds, Roy would already be halfway to destroying Xykon and would only need two more rounds to finish the job. And it's going to be very hard for Xykon to destroy Roy (with his high number of hit points, good saves, and extensive cleric support) in just two rounds.

And it won't protect them whatsoever from physical damage which Oona and Greyview dish out in bulk.

But if Redcloak goes down in the first round (which is very possible if Haley sneak attacks him and then V power word stuns him) then Oona and Greyview are going to be tied up fighting Haley, Elan, Belkar, and V by themselves. I really don't think Oona and Greyview win that fight. And that still leaves Durkon and Minrah to back up Roy against Xykon.

I think the X-factor here is the Monster in the Darkness. He knows they are friends of O-Chul, and O-Chul's friends are effectively his friends. Additionally, the Order have knowledge that could "upset the balance" between Redcloak and Xykon, namely Redcloak's true intentions. This falls back in line with the MitD since Xykon instilled a mental command to eat Redcloak should he ever betray him.

I would agree with that except that the MITD isn't with Xykon and Redcloak right now. Thus he's currently a non-factor in any hypothetical Order ambush of Team Evil.

[drazen]

Haley calling the trap the "cherry on top" means I might have been actually on to something with my "Serini will use a combination of all of the Gate defenses" theory.

The teleport trap is both deception/illusion (Girard) and arcane magic (Dorukan).

The unknown voices could be natural creatures (Lirian).

The monsters are might (Kraagor).

Still not sure how a paladin's honor (and an entire legion of ghost-martyrs) would play in to it, though.

[Ionathus]

Haley calling the trap the "cherry on top" means I might have been actually on to something with my "Serini will use a combination of all of the Gate defenses" theory.

The teleport trap is both deception/illusion (Girard) and arcane magic (Dorukan).

The unknown voices could be natural creatures (Lirian).

The monsters are might (Kraagor).

Still not sure how a paladin's honor (and an entire legion of ghost-martyrs) would play in to it, though.

It WOULD be dramatically appropriate for the final gate to have the strongest defenses! Unsure if it will actually be a combination of everything, but if anyone was to incorporate the philosophies of everybody on the team, it'd be the halfling who managed to broker their truce after the schism.

[homersolo]

I am making my prediction:

That which is being held inside by this "trap" is..... the MITD's species, and perhaps his family.

[Ionathus]

The Giant said "More than half of the readers of OOTS do not play D&D at all", and that was nine years ago.

Probably fair to note that since he wrote that, D&D has had an explosion in popularity thanks to 5E and lots of media/podcasts/streams around it. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that more of the readership has tried D&D out for the first time since then, and learned more about the rules -- I count myself among them, in fact.

That could all be a moot point of course, since most new players are likely playing 5e instead of 3.5 - but I'd be interested to see the data.

[TARINunit9]

The fact that O-Chul and Lien are not just still alive, but fed and unharmed in a very standard, made-by-humanoid-engineers style of dungeon throws up a lot of implications. It kind of completely changes their situation, and what we're supposed to infer about their invisible assailants

[WindStruck]

Yes, great plan, Roy. Leap out from the teleportion trap, and when you inevitably fail to kill Xykon and his team due to all the defenses and contingencies they have, you'll tip them off to the exact reason they haven't been able to find anything.

[Ironsmith]

The fact that O-Chul and Lien are not just still alive, but fed and unharmed in a very standard, made-by-humanoid-engineers style of dungeon throws up a lot of implications. It kind of completely changes their situation, and what we're supposed to infer about their invisible assailants

Not really. Redcloak owned and used a similar dungeon (acquired with Azure City, granted), and the way they're chained up implies torture (you ever hold your hands over your head for ten minutes? Imagine doing that for days on end). Not to mention the fumes(?) leaking in from off-panel; that particular shade of acrid green is usually reserved for toxins, both in this comic and otherwise. We can only assume they're fed because they haven't yet starved to death, and not directly harmed due to the lack of visible scarring, but that's about it. The implied conditions are hardly ideal.

[Fyraltari]

It's only been two days, even if they haven't been fed they wouldn't be dead. Hell, even if they were denied water they wouldn't be dead yet. They'd be in terrible shape, though. Then again, Roy was basically fine after being impaled by a dinosaur and O-Chul once swam in acid and still had enough oomph to run, so they might be fine even then.

[Edric O]

Yes, great plan, Roy. Leap out from the teleportion trap, and when you inevitably fail to kill Xykon and his team due to all the defenses and contingencies they have, you'll tip them off to the exact reason they haven't been able to find anything.

Well, what choice do they have at this point? The way I see it, the Order has 3 options:

1. Use the teleportation trap to ambush and attack Team Evil. Basically, Roy's plan.

2. Hide. They are in the perfect hiding place, and could presumably remain there indefinitely, until Team Evil stops looking for them.

3. Explore the dungeon they are in.

They've ruled out #3 because they don't want to accidentally weaken the defenses of the Gate. That leaves either Roy's plan or option #2. The problem with option #2 is that it means permanently giving up the element of surprise. Team Evil will be prepared for them tomorrow, or whenever they come out from their hiding place.

[Doug Lampert]

Minor point of order, I know he at least occasionally checks at least the first page of forum notes. There have been times people've pointed out some inconsistency that he's then corrected, but yeah few and far between and not to a significant degree :P

Link

Is the specific post about the giant reading the forum, he checks to make sure that the comic is being seen properly. The post also mentions that a particular point where Rich "addressed the forum" was simply an obvious point he needed to address.

[jacehan]

Well, what choice do they have at this point? The way I see it, the Order has 3 options:

1. Use the teleportation trap to ambush and attack Team Evil. Basically, Roy's plan.

2. Hide. They are in the perfect hiding place, and could presumably remain there indefinitely, until Team Evil stops looking for them.

3. Explore the dungeon they are in.

They've ruled out #3 because they don't want to accidentally weaken the defenses of the Gate. That leaves either Roy's plan or option #2. The problem with option #2 is that it means permanently giving up the element of surprise. Team Evil will be prepared for them tomorrow, or whenever they come out from their hiding place.

There's a fourth option - head back outside the caves and ambush them out there, so they can get the surprise without revealing how the trap works.

[Peelee]

There's a fourth option - head back outside the caves and ambush them out there, so they can get the surprise without revealing how the trap works.

Option 5: wait it out until Team Evil tackles doors again, go into one they picked, bypass trap, ambush them on way out when they're low on spells, slots, and HP. Biggest downside of this one is they have no way of knowing how many doors they'll try in a day, and too few means they've not been weakened enough. Plus, the small matter of the nonzero chance of finding the Gate in the meantime.

[Fyraltari]

There's a fourth option - head back outside the caves and ambush them out there, so they can get the surprise without revealing how the trap works.

This might bring the bugbears into the fight.

[Doug Lampert]

This might bring the bugbears into the fight.

Agreed:

Bugbears, MitD, other allies unknown to TOotS; and additionally, stepping outside the trap without knowing where Team Evil is risks stepping out just as Team Evil comes back from their first encounter with a comment about how "that monster would never have let the dwarf past, so we need to check the tracks more carefully outside... Oh! There he is! Appearing out of thin air right in front of us and giving us a surprise round! How nice!"

Really, you are IN a very good hunter's blind that you KNOW the target will pass in front of. This is a good situation, use it if possible.

[Mind, it won't work, it's too early in this book, but trying is still a good thing to do.]

[Goblin_Priest]

The Giant has, multiple times, stated that he does NOT read the comment threads and does NOT modify the comic based on what is in the comment threads.

I'm not sure I believe that, given how on the nose some of the in comic commentary is toward explaining things that often irrational viewers in the comment threads come up with that don't really need to be explained. But I give him the benefit of the doubt as he gives us wonderful comics.

He might get third-hand summaries, though.

Because, as you've said, it does often feel like he is directly reacting to questioning and speculation made on the forums.

[elros]

From a writing standpoint, I commend the Giant for finding a way to explain what is going on in the corridor, and then pivoting to the paladins in a way that makes sense and is entertaining. It is reminder how difficult it is to pace a story arc when each column has to be a freestanding comic, usually with a punchline. Well done!

[Angelalex242]

I do hope the Paladins get freed before the big battle.

Smite evil packs a whallop when done by a strong enough paladin.

Lord Soon just about won, ya know.

[bravelove]

Welp sucks to be the paladins

[danielxcutter]

Roy's sword is Starmetal, and Xykon doesn't seem to have damage reduction against it (p2). Plus there's that green glow that is "particularly harmful to the undead."

Starmetal is just Adamantine+@. The green fire is a nice bonus, but Roy's not actually bypassing Xykon's DR. He's just taking the 15 points out of his damage.

On the other hand the Order knows what kind of spells Xykon has and can pretty effectively defend itself against his two favored attack spells (Energy Drain and Meteor Swarm). Durkon's Mass Energy Drain will neutralize Energy Drain and wide casting of Protection from Energy (Fire) will largely negate Meteor Swarm. (Yes, the Order would still take bludgeoning damage from Xykon's meteors, but the bludgeoning damage (which is only going to be 2d6 X 4) is pretty minor damage for a 9th level spell.) And while Xykon can debuff the Order's protections the round he is doing that is a round where he is not directly attacking the Order which means they are essentially guaranteed at least 2 rounds of attacks on him before he even starts to do any real damage them (three if they get a surprise round.) Roy and Durkon can do a lot of damage to Xykon with two or three rounds of free attacks.

Xykon can cast Epic Mage Armor and has an item that provides a deflection bonus; his AC is unlikely to be that low. Roy's probably going to succeed at most two attacks per round without authorial fiat and Durkon might not manage that even then.

And while its true that Belkar, Haley, and V can't really do much damage to Xykon himself, they can certainly be effective against Redcloak, Oona, and Greyview. (Indeed with Power Word Stun, V has a real good shot at neutralizing Redcloak in the very first round.)

There's still the problem that Redcloak and Oona aren't exactly going to be faffing around, either.

With our outside-universe knowledge as readers, the Order's best strategy is probably to drag Redcloak and optionally also Oona through the booby trap and kill or at least incapacitate them while Xykon is cut off from them. Redcloak has already used a few high-level spell slots. That multi-dimensional stone probably also interferes with Word of Recall so he might not be able to retreat. This puts Team Evil's plan for the gate on hold indefinitely, because they need a high-level divine caster, and leaves the Order much better off and Team Evil much worse off in the next encounter.

Amazing. Absolutely everything you just said is wrong.

Er, well maybe not absolutely everything, but you get the idea.

There's two big flaws in this. One, there's no indication "multidimensional stone" interferes with teleportation whatsoever. Blocking Ghostform means it also interacts with the Ethereal Plane, but simply being "multidimensional" doesn't block teleportation; teleportation typically uses the Astral(or occasionally the Shadow) Plane so unless you flat-out cut off the area from other planes period then it's not blocking teleportation. Xykon can just use Greater Teleport to pop out, and if they don't instantly gank Redcloak he'll get away with Word of Recall.

Two, Redcloak dying is the about the third worst scenario possible - the top three are "Snarl breaks loose and destroys the multiverse", "Snarl breaks loose and the gods unravel the world, thus making the cycle continue for eternity". I know people who don't know what happened in Start of Darkness are more than happy to throw him under the bus, but "convincing Redcloak" is an entire quest not just an option. And if you do know what happened in SoD... well, you'd probably be less inclined to do so.

With only their in-universe knowledge, they'll probably focus on whichever of Team Evil looks the most damaged and try to finish them off. This is essentially a gamble on how Team Evil's dungeon delve goes. It's assuming Team Evil gets in serious fights to begin with. They just opened their second door with a big red X on it and presumably are finding it occupied by monsters. This should make them very suspicious about their search. They might fight one oddly large rat and regroup. That would be bad for the Order's plan.

So maybe they'll start off with the second thing, notice it's not going well after they're already in combat, and exploit the booby trap as an escape plan?

Yeah, I think that's going to be a problem.

Yes, Xykon can cast Superb Dispelling but again a round he is doing that is a round he is not damaging the Order (and in fact is doing 10d6 damage to himself). So first round Xykon casts Energy Drain and sees it fizzle. Second round, he casts Superb Dispelling. He doesn't even begin to start doing damage to the Order until the third round.

Xykon very much knows that the Order has clerics who can ward party members against fire and negative energy. I doubt he'll open with Superb Dispelling, but he's got other spells to use against the Order. Like Mass Hold Person or Cloudkill. He can also blast them with lightning. Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage is still going to incapacitate someone or flat-out take them out the fight without teleportation. And that's just off the top of my head.

Conversely Roy is pounding on Xykon each round. Roy is high enough level to get at least 3 attacks per round and per the Class and Level Geekery Thread he has a strength score of at least 29 and is using a +5 weapon which he wields two handed for which he has weapon specialization. That means Roy is doing damage of 2d6 +20 per hit + whatever damage the green fire effect does to undead.

Wrong; as I said earlier in this post starmetal doesn't actually bypass Xykon's DR. So you've got to take off 15 points off that by default, and that's assuming he hits.

Assuming he is able to hit at least two out three attacks per round that means he should be able to do at least 50 points of damage to Xykon per round, so with two rounds of essentially free attacks, Roy by himself will have already done somewhere around 100 points of damage to Xykon.

We don't know exactly how many HPs Xykon has, but it's doubtful its much over 200 and could be much less. (Liches don't get a CON bonus after all, so even if we assume Xykon is as high as 30th level, if he is only getting an average number of HPs per level (6.5) then he would only have 195 HPs). That means in just two rounds, Roy would already be halfway to destroying Xykon and would only need two more rounds to finish the job. And it's going to be very hard for Xykon to destroy Roy (with his high number of hit points, good saves, and extensive cleric support) in just two rounds.

He's... not.

I put some numbers into a Power Attack calculator. I assumed Roy has four iteratives per round, BAB +18, a Haste effect, has 29 Str, a +5 greatsword, a +3 to-hit and damage from Elan's bardic music, and Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization. I am aware that Roy might have feats like Sense Weakness to somewhat bypass the DR and we don't know how much the green fire does, but I think that's not terribly unreasonable.[/quote]

If Xykon has 35 AC, which is probably much lower than the average for his CR, that's about 81 damage without the green fire. If he has 40 AC, that's about 53 points.

It's not accurate to say that Xykon would only have average hit points either; the forum did the math a while ago and it turns out V must have near max hit points for their HD to survive their fight against him when they were Soul Spliced. There's also feats like Improved and Epic Toughness, as well as Redcloak healing him, but I suppose it's reaching a bit at that point.

Durkon joining in would help, but his to-hit isn't really as good. He hasn't invested as much as Roy into melee and is lower level, so even with Divine Power he's not going to be doing as much damage.

[quote]But if Redcloak goes down in the first round (which is very possible if Haley sneak attacks him and then V power word stuns him) then Oona and Greyview are going to be tied up fighting Haley, Elan, Belkar, and V by themselves. I really don't think Oona and Greyview win that fight. And that still leaves Durkon and Minrah to back up Roy against Xykon.

They need Redcloak alive though. I think it's not improbable that they could take him down in the surprise round, yes, but I don't feel optimistic.

V and Elan could also provide magical support, I guess.

Also I'd have Minrah attack the goblins, because she's not high level enough to hit hard enough or last long enough against Xykon.

I would agree with that except that the MITD isn't with Xykon and Redcloak right now. Thus he's currently a non-factor in any hypothetical Order ambush of Team Evil.

Yeah, I think it's a bit early for the MITD's redemption arc to reach a climax here.

It WOULD be dramatically appropriate for the final gate to have the strongest defenses! Unsure if it will actually be a combination of everything, but if anyone was to incorporate the philosophies of everybody on the team, it'd be the halfling who managed to broker their truce after the schism.

I very much agree.

[Shining Wrath]

Is there a defined idea as to what the fumes/steam in the last panel is, does it look like anything from previous strips?

My vote is "Normal dungeon dampness". They don't look injured, which even a Paladin would be after a couple of days in a mist that damages.

Roy's sword is Starmetal, and Xykon doesn't seem to have damage reduction against it (p2). Plus there's that green glow that is "particularly harmful to the undead."

I don't know if Roy's sword bypasses Xykon's DR or not. When they fought at Azure City Xykon seemed to feel the hits, and Roy's leveled up since then.

What I do know is that the entire point of Roy forming the Order of the Stick is killing Xykon, and he is optimized to do that. To Xykon, Roy's Some Guy Who Shows Up. To Roy, Xykon is his reason for living and an existential threat to the entire universe. You would think that in a fight to the death both sides would care equally - but I don't think that's always true even in real life, and in this story, Xykon has no idea what's headed his way. 3.5 calculations aside, as a matter of story it's going to be very disappointing if they throw down and Xykon wins, or gets away.

What's going to be interesting, though, is Durkon is going to save Redcloak's life at some point - so say my tea leaves. Durkon and Minrah know Redcloak is the key to saving the universe from the Snarl. In fact, the only thing that may convince Redcloak they told him the truth is Durkon saving him at some cost to himself.

[Algeh]

In the strip when Redcloak claimed the fake phylactery off of the dead elder craftsman he hired to make it, he kept the fake in a fancy carrying case, and promptly dropped the real one into what I would figure is a Bag of Holding, which is probably still on his person for safekeeping (while Xykon snatched the carrying case with the fake phylactery).

I guess the question for me is, would there be any way to escape or burst out of the demiplane or extraplanar space that constitutes a Bag of Holding? Especially when one doesn't have limbs yet?

Redcloak's backup holy symbol is diamond-shaped. Redcloak's current holy symbol is round. And I, for one, find that quite interesting.

Yeah, that was weird. I saw that the second we saw him in the Bugbear village, but I assumed it was a stylistic mistake. Maybe it’s the real phylactery? Why hasn’t Xykon noticed?

Xykon thinks he has the real one. As far as he's concerned, that's just a holy symbol Redcloak dredged up so the backup one stays a backup.

Maybe. I'm just theorizing here, after all.

He still had the diamond-shaped one at Girard's pyramid, so either it's an art error since then (maybe used a reference with the old phylactery when upgrading Redcloak to the new art style?) or Redcloak swapped it out after they teleported north, maybe at the same time as MITD got his new umbrella, since he had it in the first bugbear village strip.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

He still had the diamond-shaped one at Girard's pyramid, so either it's an art error since then (maybe used a reference with the old phylactery when upgrading Redcloak to the new art style?) or Redcloak swapped it out after they teleported north, maybe at the same time as MITD got his new umbrella, since he had it in the first bugbear village strip.

Both him and Xykon have had plenty of downtime for crafting, after their spell slots were consumed but there were still hours left in the day, so he could have trivially told Xykon "I'm not feeling the square symbol, I'm going back to the round" if Xykon had bothered to ask, which he probably would not have anyway. As to whether that is the true phylactery or RC did craft a new holy symbol, I won't speculate.

Grey Wolf

[TARINunit9]

Not really. Redcloak owned and used a similar dungeon (acquired with Azure City, granted), and the way they're chained up implies torture (you ever hold your hands over your head for ten minutes? Imagine doing that for days on end). Not to mention the fumes(?) leaking in from off-panel; that particular shade of acrid green is usually reserved for toxins, both in this comic and otherwise. We can only assume they're fed because they haven't yet starved to death, and not directly harmed due to the lack of visible scarring, but that's about it. The implied conditions are hardly ideal.

I always read comic 1189 that we were dealing with beings beyond the need for anything so mundane as dungeons and torture. Incorporeal beings occupying the cracks between gods and devils

Part of it comes from the ambiguity of the line "Was getting worried that poison wasn't up to the task of cutting through your paladin mojo." I assumed the emphasis was on the word "poison", as if to imply these incorporeal beings don't normally use something so mundane as toxic darts either. But 1224 clarifies the emphasis was on the word "that"; these ordinary beings using greater invisibility have many poisons, and weren't sure which ones were best against paladins