OOTS #1224 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

Yet, a Disintegrate ray hits a person and instantly dusts that person's armor, clothes, skin, muscles, bones, internal organs, blood, gut flora, everything - yet it doesn't touch the air molecules around them,

No-sentient air always makes its dexterity saving throw.

[Ironsmith]

I think you've confused sentience with sapience here. They may act solely on instinct, but they are certainly aware of what things are natural dangers to them.

Not in this case, no. If we want to get into the semantics of sapience versus sentience, insects don't qualify for either. Lacking a centralized nervous system takes them off the table for a lot.

No-sentient air always makes its dexterity saving throw.

Plus, it's already a group of free-floating molecles; exactly how much more disintegrated can it get?

[Canisius]

Seems pretty early in this book to have a final confrontation. So I'm hoping we get diverted into a story about the Azurites learning about their mysterious captors.

(I don't just do this with episodic webcomics - at the end of each chapter of fiction I read, I like to spend a few seconds wondering "where will this go next?)

[skim172]

There's also the fact that it's possible to make homing missiles without making them sentient either, so...

Ah, but a homing missile targets a certain radar signature or a heat signal or a coordinate in space. When it chases its target, it doesn't "see" a plane or recognize that the plane is not the same thing as the environment around it.

But a Disintegrate spell can differentiate between its target and what's around it. It knows what is a person and what isn't. And that fundamentally requires some level of cognition to be able to conceptualize what is an "object" or "entity" that is different from the objects around it. A human body isn't innately a "human" - it can be defined as a mass of organic compounds, or a conglomeration of complex cells, or an accumulation of different types of tissues, or an bunch of intertwined layers of different fluid and electric circuits, or a skeleton with a bunch of gooey bits stuck to it, or a bag of flesh with some other things inside it, or a mosaic of colors - and many other ways.

A camera sees us as reflections of light. An X-ray sees us as a map of different densities. A microphone hears us as vibrations of gas molecules. It takes some sort of cognition - and relatively advanced cognition (compared to like, bacteria) - to conceive of this as a single unified entity that has significance as a "thing", that is separate from the other sensory data around it. And then to destroy that thing, and only that thing.

When that homing missile hits a plane and explodes, it's not going to affect only the plane that it hits. It's going to spread out and damage all in a certain radius from the point of detonation. That explosion does not extend beyond that radius, nor will it stop when it reaches the end of the plane.

But Disintegrate's destructive power does not diminish with distance from its original point of impact. It keeps going, with equal destructive force, until it abruptly stops when it reaches the target's feet. That is something pretty remarkable.

Also remarkable - the Disintegrate ray knows that it's supposed to kill the raging barbarian that it's targeted at. It does not, for example, allow itself to be stopped by some passing bacteria or a floating spray of pollen, or any of the microscopic organisms that reside on the barbarian's skin. These are also living creatures, separate from the target - but the Disintegrate spell knows it's not supposed to stop for them.

[Peelee]

Ah, but a homing missile targets a certain radar signature or a heat signal or a coordinate in space. When it chases its target, it doesn't "see" a plane or recognize that the plane is not the same thing as the environment around it.

But a Disintegrate spell can differentiate between its target and what's around it. It knows what is a person and what isn't.

No it doesn't. It knows solid, contiguous objects up to a maximum volume. The person, clothes, items, etc are all within its volume requirements. The ground is not. The larger contiguous object that is too big for the volume requirement is excluded.

Thats very simple, basic programming. Nothing more.

[bunsen_h]

No-sentient air always makes its dexterity saving throw.

You're reminding me of Alexander Abian and his "theories" about how MATTER BEHAVES so as to INCREASE its sense of SECURITY. Including, yes, sentient air... which he claimed is afraid of sulfuric acid, for example.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
ABIAN MASS-TIME EQUIVALENCE FORMULA m = Mo(1-exp(T/(kT-Mo))) Abian units.

ALTER EARTH'S ORBIT AND TILT - STOP GLOBAL DISASTERS AND EPIDEMICS

ALTER THE SOLAR SYSTEM. REORBIT VENUS INTO A NEAR EARTH-LIKE ORBIT

TO CREATE A BORN AGAIN EARTH (1990)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not one of our favourite people in the science and math newsgroups, back in the day.

[MoiMagnus]

Magic's ability to recognize and discern a living being and its accoutrements as a single distinct entity separate from the environment around it is actually quite remarkable.

[...]

I'd contest the existence of atoms in the D&D universe. You will probably have an easier time finding a coherence if you try to use some less scientific frameworks like, like the reality being made of "shadows" from the world of concepts (cf Platon). In other words, the fact that an object is yielded by a living being is a physical property of the object and of the living, which can be experimentally tested, not a weird property of spells.

In this approach, going through fire yielding objects does not damage them if you survive, both with magical fire (spells explicitly say it) and mundane fire.

(Similarly, a lot of magic make much more sense if you assume matter is made of the different elements, like the aristotelian view of the world, instead of atoms)

[hamishspence]

There's always the option of combining atomic theory with Aristotelian theory, as per this essay:


http://mimir.net/essays/planarphysics.html

[KorvinStarmast]

Ah, but a homing missile targets a certain radar signature or a heat signal or a coordinate in space. When it chases its target, it doesn't "see" a plane or recognize that the plane is not the same thing as the environment around it.

It's a bit of a problem trying to tie RL stuff into Magic in D&D, but let me take a crack at this from another angle:

The boost phase intercept method of Ballistic Missile Defense (a 25 year old effort at least) goes after a very discrete thing using a finely tunable/focused laser. When I knew anything about it, though, it wasn't man portable. I suspect that with the advances in AI over the past ten years, and the compression of processors, you'll find a lot more nuance in what's in a seeker head than the illustrations you've been offering. (FWIW, there's an entire family of brilliant munitions that target certain parts of an armored vehicle's armor, but it's been years since I was up to date on those).

As I mentioned in another post, it's been over 15 years but some of the new guidance packages I was aware of for air munitions had well transcended what a Sidewinder does with IR. Between a couple of NDAs and not being current, I'll stop there.

To sum up: I think that AI is progressing to the point that something like what Disintegrate does, vis a vis target discrimination and destructive potential is either on line now or will be very soon. That said, I see the mechanics of disintegrate as a two part implementation: the Wizard acts as the unit with the laser designator (wizard brain sees and selects the target) and the spell effect acts as the aircraft launching the Hellfire or dropping the GBU-12 or whatever.

I suspect that the only character in OoTS who would appreciate this kind of answer is Redcloak, and his 'periodic table of the elements' elemental summons. The rest would, I suspect, roll their eyes at all this.

[danielxcutter]

It's a bit of a problem trying to tie RL stuff into Magic in D&D, but let me take a crack at this from another angle:

The boost phase intercept method of Ballistic Missile Defense (a 25 year old effort at least) goes after a very discrete thing using a finely tunable/focused laser. When I knew anything about it, though, it wasn't man portable. I suspect that with the advances in AI over the past ten years, and the compression of processors, you'll find a lot more nuance in what's in a seeker head than the illustrations you've been offering. (FWIW, there's an entire family of brilliant munitions that target certain parts of an armored vehicle's armor, but it's been years since I was up to date on those).

As I mentioned in another post, it's been over 15 years but some of the new guidance packages I was aware of for air munitions had well transcended what a Sidewinder does with IR. Between a couple of NDAs and not being current, I'll stop there.

To sum up: I think that AI is progressing to the point that something like what Disintegrate does, vis a vis target discrimination and destructive potential is either on line now or will be very soon. That said, I see the mechanics of disintegrate as a two part implementation: the Wizard acts as the unit with the laser designator (wizard brain sees and selects the target) and the spell effect acts as the aircraft launching the Hellfire or dropping the GBU-12 or whatever.

I suspect that the only character in OoTS who would appreciate this kind of answer is Redcloak, and his 'periodic table of the elements' elemental summons. The rest would, I suspect, roll their eyes at all this.

V might appreciate it, actually.

[Peelee]

You're reminding me of.....
Not one of our favourite people in the science and math newsgroups, back in the day.

I choose to believe you mean I remind you of absolutely one of your favorite people.

[Doug Lampert]

No-sentient air always makes its dexterity saving throw.

Doesn't help:

A) There are no dexterity saving throws in this edition.

2) Disintegrate is a ranged touch attack followed by a fortitude save for reduced damage, it isn't even a reflex save.

iii) If it is non-sentient then it lacks a wisdom score (unable to perceive its surroundings), which means it's an object, and unattended objects don't get a save against disintegrate anyway.

[bunsen_h]

I choose to believe you mean I remind you of absolutely one of your favorite people.

Heh. I beg your pardon. I should have said "you're reminding me about" or "... about the goofy theories" or some such.

Abian was one of the more noted Usenet crackpots. His Theory of Everything (as we would put it now) was that everything is sentient and is motivated by seeking a sense of security. Things fall because they're nervous about being high up, and feel better when they're safely on the ground. The outermost electron of a sodium atom is lonely, and feels happier when it's filling an empty orbital spot in a chlorine atom in the company of other electrons. That kind of thing.

[Skull the Troll]

Ah, but a homing missile targets a certain radar signature or a heat signal or a coordinate in space. When it chases its target, it doesn't "see" a plane or recognize that the plane is not the same thing as the environment around it.

But a Disintegrate spell can differentiate between its target and what's around it. It knows what is a person and what isn't. And that fundamentally requires some level of cognition to be able to conceptualize what is an "object" or "entity" that is different from the objects around it. *Snip*

Or, you know, it's magic.

[Doug Lampert]

Or, you know, it's magic.

This, D&D land has THOUSANDS of things that make no sense based on physics.

There is plainly a life-force, it exists, it even has a name (positive energy), more can be added to someone healing their wounds, it can be taken away weakening or killing you with no actual wounds.

If someone dies, you can use a modest fifth level spell to bring them back, even if they were over level 9,000. But you can't make a creature of that power by magic, it requires that their soul exist and be available and a bunch of other stuff. People in D&D land have immortal souls and life force.

And most spells treat carried objects as part of you. You teleport with your gear. If it were scattered on a training dummy the caster wouldn't be able to take even a fraction of it (unless he picks up the training dummy itself and carries the whole thing as one of his carried objects).

Disintegrate, LIKE VIRTUALLY EVERY OTHER SPELL IN THE GAME, interacts to some extent with the soul and/or life force of the target (or with the magic or negative energy substituting for life force in the cases of non-living creatures).

Disintegrate doesn't KNOW anything about your size or shape, it interacts with the magical you that clearly exists in D&D land, because that's how the magic works.

If we were arguing star-trek phasers, there might be a point to this, but insisting on a materialistic explanation for how magic works in D&D land is doomed to failure, because there are plenty of spells that explicitly interact with the non-material aspects of living creatures like their life-force and souls.

[KorvinStarmast]

If we were arguing star-trek phasers, there might be a point to this, but insisting on a materialistic explanation for how magic works in D&D land is doomed to failure, because there are plenty of spells that explicitly interact with the non-material aspects of living creatures like their life-force and souls.

Not to mention Tenser's Floating Disc.
I mean, how did that buoancy thing work, again?

[Riftwolf]

This, D&D land has THOUSANDS of things that make no sense based on physics.

There is plainly a life-force, it exists, it even has a name (positive energy), more can be added to someone healing their wounds, it can be taken away weakening or killing you with no actual wounds.

If someone dies, you can use a modest fifth level spell to bring them back, even if they were over level 9,000. But you can't make a creature of that power by magic, it requires that their soul exist and be available and a bunch of other stuff. People in D&D land have immortal souls and life force.

And most spells treat carried objects as part of you. You teleport with your gear. If it were scattered on a training dummy the caster wouldn't be able to take even a fraction of it (unless he picks up the training dummy itself and carries the whole thing as one of his carried objects).

Disintegrate, LIKE VIRTUALLY EVERY OTHER SPELL IN THE GAME, interacts to some extent with the soul and/or life force of the target (or with the magic or negative energy substituting for life force in the cases of non-living creatures).

Disintegrate doesn't KNOW anything about your size or shape, it interacts with the magical you that clearly exists in D&D land, because that's how the magic works.

If we were arguing star-trek phasers, there might be a point to this, but insisting on a materialistic explanation for how magic works in D&D land is doomed to failure, because there are plenty of spells that explicitly interact with the non-material aspects of living creatures like their life-force and souls.

As an addendum to this (which goes over a lot of what I wanted to say): do you think the wizards who designed and standardised the Disintegrate spell didn't think of all that stuff? The spell specifically leaves behind all equipment, probably because the first draft got the Archmage kicked from his party for dusting the loot. Wizards wouldn't mass-distribute a spell that didn't work exactly as was most universally convenient.

[bunsen_h]

How can this be? From a physical perspective, the molecules of your body aren't broadly different from the molecules of the dirt your feet are in contact with. If it worked by dissolving everything that is in contact with whatever it hits - then a single use of Disintegrate should cause a runaway chain reaction, dissolving your body, then the ground under you, then the entire planet and its atmosphere.

From a biological perspective, there is definitely a difference between living cells and non-living matter - but then, why would it affect the clothes you're wearing? And why would it work against golems or undead or other animated entities of non-living matter?

Maybe we could come up with a complex scientific explanation. But I think the simplest answer is that the targeting of a Disintegrate spell is guided by a sentient mind. A consciousness looks upon a scene and identifies what is and what is not "the target". That cognitive distinction marks out the limits of the Disintegrate's area of effect.

I'm reminded of a scene in a book (which I will not name) in which the equivalent of a D&D Baleful Polymorph is intercepted by the bacteria on the intended victim's skin.

It is the opposite of a good book.

[Jasdoif]

The spell specifically leaves behind all equipment, probably because the first draft got the Archmage kicked from his party for dusting the loot.

It was received poorly enough in 3.0 to get that change for 3.5, at the very least.

[Peelee]

Doesn't help:

A) There are no dexterity saving throws in this edition.

2) Disintegrate is a ranged touch attack followed by a fortitude save for reduced damage, it isn't even a reflex save.

iii) If it is non-sentient then it lacks a wisdom score (unable to perceive its surroundings), which means it's an object, and unattended objects don't get a save against disintegrate anyway.

A.) Non-sentient air gets dexterity saving throws against everything slower than, say, 150,000 feet per round.
2.) See A.
iii.) See A.

Additionally: I love your list system.

Now, if you want to dispute that movement speed, I can bad math all day long!

It was received poorly enough in 3.0 to get that change for 3.5, at the very least.

3.0: Wizards mass-distributing spells that don't work exactly as was most universally convenient since 2000!

[Jasdoif]

3.0: Wizards mass-distributing spells that don't work exactly as was most universally convenient since 2000!

The unacknowledged public beta model had some downsides, yes.

[Riftwolf]

It was received poorly enough in 3.0 to get that change for 3.5, at the very least.

In fairness, there was nothing in that link that said Disintegrate *did* destroy equipment, though 'first object hit' suggests loopholes of the '50 pairs of swimming trunks' variety.

[Jasdoif]

In fairness, there was nothing in that link that said Disintegrate *did* destroy equipment

I'm fairly confident "leaving behind only a trace of fine dust" means any equipment left behind would be in the form of fine dust; the list of magic items that function as fine dust is pretty short.

[Peelee]

I'm fairly confident "leaving behind only a trace of fine dust" means any equipment left behind would be in the form of fine dust; the list of magic items that function as fine dust is pretty short.

And of the available options, not even always fun.

[Riftwolf]

I'm fairly confident "leaving behind only a trace of fine dust" means any equipment left behind would be in the form of fine dust; the list of magic items that function as fine dust is pretty short.

On a side tangent: has Dust Armour ever been a thing? Like a magical swirl of dust that acts as armour and maybe grants circumstantial concealment?

[Peelee]

On a side tangent: has Dust Armour ever been a thing? Like a magical swirl of dust that acts as armour and maybe grants circumstantial concealment?

Sure! You gotta put it in the enemy's eyes first, but after that their attacks miss a lot more.

[Jasdoif]

And of the available options, not even always fun.

Not always, but it's pretty fun for undead rogues; since it allows a Fortitude save they're unaffected, and stunned targets are sneak-attack-able.

On a side tangent: has Dust Armour ever been a thing? Like a magical swirl of dust that acts as armour and maybe grants circumstantial concealment?

Probably? The closest thing I can think of off the top of my head, though, the warlock invocation entropic warding combines the concealment-like miss chance of entropic shield with the tracking negation of pass without trace, which I imagine like being surrounded by a swirling maelstrom of magical dust obscuring you from the sight of your enemies and sandblasting your footprints beyond recognition.

[greenfunkman]

On a side tangent: has Dust Armour ever been a thing? Like a magical swirl of dust that acts as armour and maybe grants circumstantial concealment?

I'd allow it in my 5e game as a combo of mage armour and prestidigitation. So you would have to keep casting the dust part every turn to keep the partial concealment up. Otherwise the dust falls away and you have just mage armour.

[StarT_Teg]

Will there be new re-issues of the comic books after the release of the last book? On kickstarter or smtn.

Greetings from a big fan from Russia

[Fyraltari]

Will there be new re-issues of the comic books after the release of the last book? On kickstarter or smtn.

Greetings from a big fan from Russia

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