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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default ToB Discipline Variant: good idea or bad?

    Recently, some of my players have been asking for alternative variants to their discipline choices in order to better fit their characters. These requests so far have been things like replacing one key skill for another, or changing out energy damage types, or asking to initiate maneuvers through less conventional methods. So far, I've okayed all of them since none of them seemed over powering or game breaking. But do you guys think this is a good idea?

    I'll post the examples in a following post since I'm having a hard time creating new topics right now.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: ToB Discipline Variant: good idea or bad?

    example 1: Player wants to use his jump skill with the desert wind discipline instead of tumble. He wanted to create a character that does a lot of area damage type moves, but he wanted to do so by having his character do a lot of "diving moves" kind of thing. So basically, he wants to perform a lot of these area damage moves after a jump. Naturally, the jump skill makes sense here.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: ToB Discipline Variant: good idea or bad?

    example 2: one of the player who is also a DW practitioner says his character is not of desert origin and his tribe does not revere the fire as much as the thunder. So he wanted to replace the energy damage type from fire to electrical, just to fit his character's flavor.

    example 3: one of my players is a zangief wannabe. Unfortunately, ToB doesn't have a lot of moves that handles slamming very well. All grappling ToB moves involve throwing and countering, which is actually more like Aikido/Judo than wrestling. However, a lot of the Iron Heart strikes, when you just switch out "succeeds in grappling check" instead of just "melee attack", seems to work out well with it. So in the end, he said he was willing to spend a feat just so he can start using his grappling with all of his maneuvers.

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    Default Re: ToB Discipline Variant: good idea or bad?

    'Cept it doesn't. Tiger claw deals with diving attacks, and it has Jump as it's skill.


    As for changing element, I'd rework master of the nine. Make 10 different possible maneuvers to pick from a special list, one for each school, and some universal 'neuver that does 2d6 damage per level with no limit. Make the desert wind 'neuver remove one damage resistance or reduce an immunity to resistance 15, and leave you exhausted, for example.

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    Default Re: ToB Discipline Variant: good idea or bad?

    The first example sounds just fine. Tumble is one of the most powerful skills in the game for anyone that plans to be anywhere near melee. Having a different, less broken skill used for his maneuvers should be quite balanced.
    "I wonder how he's doing?"
    <shout from other room>"QUICK DRAW, WHIRLWIND ATTACK!"
    "Apparently not so well..."
    -From an actual game session

  6. - Top - End - #6
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    Default Re: ToB Discipline Variant: good idea or bad?

    Elliot, the way you handled the changes is perfectly acceptable. None of the proposed options is game breaking, since they all seem to be fairly one for one trades, or at least close enough to it, that it doesn't upset the balance of the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azerian Kelimon View Post
    'Cept it doesn't. Tiger claw deals with diving attacks, and it has Jump as it's skill.


    As for changing element, I'd rework master of the nine. Make 10 different possible maneuvers to pick from a special list, one for each school, and some universal 'neuver that does 2d6 damage per level with no limit. Make the desert wind 'neuver remove one damage resistance or reduce an immunity to resistance 15, and leave you exhausted, for example.
    So your propsed solution is more difficult, requires the reworking of an entire class. In addition to creating a new maneuver, you also have stated more or less that the player should select Tiger Claw, which does not have the same supernatural area attacks that Desert Wind has? I'm really failing to see where you came up with all that, it also is extremely cumbersome compared to just switching out the element the spell has, or the primary skill for a discipline. The proposed fixes are literal 1 for 1 exchanges. Yours involves a hell of a lot of work, for little to no payoff.
    Last edited by Valairn; 2007-11-07 at 12:46 PM.
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    Default Re: ToB Discipline Variant: good idea or bad?

    Aye. the jump change makes no sense, since Tiger claw has done the job for a while.

    The rest seem nice, though I kinda doubt your player is going to be happy when he finds out that huge or higher guys just flick their hands, claws, or whathave you and cancel the grapple.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: ToB Discipline Variant: good idea or bad?

    My big concerns were actually of skill synergies.

    Right now, the player uses Jump for his desert wind maneuvers and that's fine. He has not selected any Tiger Claw disciplines yet so it's not an issue. but if he does, he would get synergies from already having invested skill points into the relevant key skill. My thought right now was to just say that he has effectively switched his tiger claw key skill for his DW key skill and vice versa. This way, he still needs to invest points in case he DOES want to pick up a different discipline.

    I'm also still suspect of the grappling with maneuvers ruling. So far it's been working out okay. I have noticed one thing though: once he establishes a grab on someone, if that person can't break out of the grapple, he is going to be in a WORLD of pain. More so than before because now the guy can use his maneuvers with it.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: ToB Discipline Variant: good idea or bad?

    Yeah, these things sound like decent balanced changes that work well with the character concepts.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: ToB Discipline Variant: good idea or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azerian Kelimon View Post
    Aye. the jump change makes no sense, since Tiger claw has done the job for a while.

    The rest seem nice, though I kinda doubt your player is going to be happy when he finds out that huge or higher guys just flick their hands, claws, or whathave you and cancel the grapple.
    Tiger Claw has jump, but you know what, it doesn't matter, because the character doesn't want to just jump, he wants to jump AND perform supernatural type area attacks. Switching out the primary skill is not an issue in the slightest, and it preserves the players character concept which is a win win for the DM. Making the character take Tiger Claw maneuvers is a useless excercise since it leaves the player unsatisfied and constricted by an unecessary restriction.
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    Default Re: ToB Discipline Variant: good idea or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by elliott20 View Post
    My big concerns were actually of skill synergies.

    Right now, the player uses Jump for his desert wind maneuvers and that's fine. He has not selected any Tiger Claw disciplines yet so it's not an issue. but if he does, he would get synergies from already having invested skill points into the relevant key skill. My thought right now was to just say that he has effectively switched his tiger claw key skill for his DW key skill and vice versa. This way, he still needs to invest points in case he DOES want to pick up a different discipline.
    I was going to suggest doing just that.

    I don't have a comment on the grappling issue.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: ToB Discipline Variant: good idea or bad?

    Tataraus is right, switching out the skills completely between the two disciplines is a perfect solution.
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    Default Re: ToB Discipline Variant: good idea or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by elliott20 View Post
    example 2: one of the player who is also a DW practitioner says his character is not of desert origin and his tribe does not revere the fire as much as the thunder. So he wanted to replace the energy damage type from fire to electrical, just to fit his character's flavor.
    This should be fine, but one thing to keep in mind is some energy resistance is more popular than others. There are a lot more creatures and abilities that are resistant to fire damage than electrical, so switching energy types could make the Desert Wind maneuvers a lot more effective (particularly sonic, which very few things have resistance to). However, since most of it is direct damage stuff, it's not a really big concern... although I'd be sorely tempted to sick a Shambling Mound on him as a surprise.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: ToB Discipline Variant: good idea or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    This should be fine, but one thing to keep in mind is some energy resistance is more popular than others. There are a lot more creatures and abilities that are resistant to fire damage than electrical, so switching energy types could make the Desert Wind maneuvers a lot more effective (particularly sonic, which very few things have resistance to). However, since most of it is direct damage stuff, it's not a really big concern... although I'd be sorely tempted to sick a Shambling Mound on him as a surprise.
    Yeah, be careful about sonic damage.. but otherwise that seems fine to me.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: ToB Discipline Variant: good idea or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    This should be fine, but one thing to keep in mind is some energy resistance is more popular than others. There are a lot more creatures and abilities that are resistant to fire damage than electrical, so switching energy types could make the Desert Wind maneuvers a lot more effective (particularly sonic, which very few things have resistance to). However, since most of it is direct damage stuff, it's not a really big concern... although I'd be sorely tempted to sick a Shambling Mound on him as a surprise.
    OOH, that's a great idea, I gotta keep that in mind for next week!

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: ToB Discipline Variant: good idea or bad?

    You may want to take a look at some of the homebrewed Disciplines on this forum. Some seem to fit what you're looking for very well. Oncoming Storm, Gentle Breeze, Twin Spirit, Ocean Soul, and Falling Star immediately come to mind.

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