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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Zhorn's Avatar

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    Default Re: My DM is using this homebrew version of True Strike - too powerful?

    I'd steer clear of the expanded crit range proposal for the same reason as the guaranteed crit one, cantrips are too easily tacked onto builds that get more mileage out of crits than others (rogues, paladins, hexblades) that it'll really up the damage disparity with more reliable nova-potentials.

    Either go for the Auto hit: singular, no crit chance, but lands a reliable hit
    Or the scaling 1d4 +To Hit per-tier modifier

    Also avoid any proposals for the cantrip granting advantage, that's one of the pitfalls that made True Strike a nightmare to balance in the first place.
    And tacking on extra damage on top of that again is just power creep.
    Last edited by Zhorn; 2021-01-28 at 01:07 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: My DM is using this homebrew version of True Strike - too powerful?

    There was a 3rd party book I found called evolving cantrips. The guy took the non damage cantrips and made them level and get better along with the damaging spells. I really liked true strike from there.

    True Strike
    At 5th Level You can choose to gain a +5 bonus to your next
    attack roll against the target, instead of gaining advantage.
    Additionally, the attack ignores half and three-quarters cover.
    The spell no longer requires concentration.
    At 11th Level The spell's effects last for 1 minute or until you
    make your first attack against the target. You also learn the
    target's lowest saving throw between Strength, Dexterity, and
    Constitution.
    At 17th Level When you cast this spell, you can choose
    another creature within range to receive its benefits in
    addition to yourself.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: My DM is using this homebrew version of True Strike - too powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhorn View Post
    I'd steer clear of the expanded crit range proposal for the same reason as the guaranteed crit one, cantrips are too easily tacked onto builds that get more mileage out of crits than others (rogues, paladins, hexblades) that it'll really up the damage disparity with more reliable nova-potentials.

    Either go for the Auto hit: singular, no crit chance, but lands a reliable hit
    Or the scaling 1d4 +To Hit per-tier modifier

    Also avoid any proposals for the cantrip granting advantage, that's one of the pitfalls that made True Strike a nightmare to balance in the first place.
    And tacking on extra damage on top of that again is just power creep.
    Fair enough. I'll just let him know that the crit thing makes the rogue and paladin unbalanced. Maybe he'll boost something else to compensate, or maybe he'll just stick to the to-hit.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: My DM is using this homebrew version of True Strike - too powerful?

    I personally don't think making it a blade cantrip is the way to make it better. But if that is the direction your DM wants to take it, then I think it would be best to stick to the kind of scaling they use. It is important to note that the only thing that scales for cantrips is damage, so that they roughly mirror martial classes' weapon attacks. Compare guidance and resistance, which don't scale. Instead of increasing the bonus to hit (which goes against bounded accuracy), why not just increase the damage?

    True Strike
    Divination cantrip
    Casting time: 1 action
    Range: Self (30-foot radius)
    Components: S, M (a weapon worth at least 1 sp)
    Duration: Instantaneous
    You brandish the weapon used in the spell's casting and make a weapon attack with it against one creature within 30 feet of you. You add 1d4 to the attack roll.
    This spell's damage increases when you reach certain levels. At 5th level, the weapon attack deals an extra 1d8 force damage to the target on a hit, and increases by 1d8 at 11th level (2d8) and again at 17th level (3d8).


    This does damage comparable to booming blade, assuming the target suffers the rider damage once every third or fourth hit. Of note, this would be the only way to get bonus damage with a ranged weapon, so it's still pretty outside the norm for 5e, but the player in question is going Bladesinger, so it shouldn't be an issue.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: My DM is using this homebrew version of True Strike - too powerful?

    to be honest, it is powerful and it does break game design principles we see in dnd but true strick is a "Trap spell" Like "Trap cards" in magic. it's designed to be bad and teach you a lesson about the action economy and that in and of its self is bad design so letting the obvious trap bad spell be good is ok, it's more of a preference in gameplay. I believe the "trap cards" and "Trap option" have no place in card games or dnd so I am fine with overcorrecting the problem. it also opens up some interesting gameplay interaction. it's not overpowered it's just really f***ing good. the only change I would suggest is instead of increasing the number of dice increases the dice size. it would bring it down to just being really good instead of boarding on overpowered.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: My DM is using this homebrew version of True Strike - too powerful?

    I think the issue is that it breaks the math of the game. Scaling d4s is a lot, and I would say it would be much more reasonable if you replaced the scaling d4s with proficiency bonus, which is what the math of the game is based on. If your group likes rolling dice, try scaling it with a singular die that increases in size, ala bardic inspiration.
    Sure, it would still be powerful for rogues, paladins, and maybe bladesingers and hexblades, but it wouldn't massively outshine the other blade cantrips, at least if you don't build yourself around this modified truestrike. Without the expanded crit range, I can't imagine anyone other than a sharpshooter rogue taking this. So really, you just need to adjust the numbers.
    Compare:
    lvl 1: +1d4 (avg 2.5) vs +2. Crit range avg 17-20 vs 18-20
    lvl 5: +2d4 (avg 5) vs +3 vs +1d6 (avg 3.5) . Crit range: 15-20 vs 17-20 vs 16-20
    lvl 11: +3d4 (avg 7.5) v +4 vs +1d8 (avg 4.5). Crit range: 12-20 vs 16-20 vs 15-20
    lvl 17: +4d4 (avg 10) vs + 6 vs + 1d12 (avg 6.5). Crit range: 10-20 vs 14-20 vs 13-20.

    So yeah, 1d4 -> 2d4 -> 3d4 -> 4d4 is just too much. Proficiency bonus, bardic inspiration scaling or 1d4->1d6 -> 2d4 -> 2d6 are all within the realm of numbers the game is designed for, while still being powerful.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: My DM is using this homebrew version of True Strike - too powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by thoroughlyS View Post
    I personally don't think making it a blade cantrip is the way to make it better. But if that is the direction your DM wants to take it, then I think it would be best to stick to the kind of scaling they use. It is important to note that the only thing that scales for cantrips is damage, so that they roughly mirror martial classes' weapon attacks. Compare guidance and resistance, which don't scale. Instead of increasing the bonus to hit (which goes against bounded accuracy), why not just increase the damage?

    True Strike
    Divination cantrip
    Casting time: 1 action
    Range: Self (30-foot radius)
    Components: S, M (a weapon worth at least 1 sp)
    Duration: Instantaneous
    You brandish the weapon used in the spell's casting and make a weapon attack with it against one creature within 30 feet of you. You add 1d4 to the attack roll.
    This spell's damage increases when you reach certain levels. At 5th level, the weapon attack deals an extra 1d8 force damage to the target on a hit, and increases by 1d8 at 11th level (2d8) and again at 17th level (3d8).


    This does damage comparable to booming blade, assuming the target suffers the rider damage once every third or fourth hit. Of note, this would be the only way to get bonus damage with a ranged weapon, so it's still pretty outside the norm for 5e, but the player in question is going Bladesinger, so it shouldn't be an issue.
    The player he's fixing it for is going bladesinger, but there's another guy wanting to play rogue, and I just know he'll take arcane trickster for this.

    I got a lot of good ideas here. I'll present them to him. The biggest aspect being crit and rogues.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: My DM is using this homebrew version of True Strike - too powerful?

    3.5 replacements:

    1. Do not scale number of d4s.

    1b. Instead add 1d6 damage per tier.

    2. Take the best of the d4s, not the sum.

    3. Revert to baseline. Then add 1d12 damage per tier to the true stike attack.

    I go with 3. 1b is a modification on 1, the rest are independent suggestions.
    Last edited by Yakk; 2021-05-06 at 07:52 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: My DM is using this homebrew version of True Strike - too powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    3.5 replacements:

    1. Do not scale number of d4s.

    1b. Instead add 1d6 damage per tier.

    2. Take the best of the d4s, not the sum.

    3. Revert to baseline. Then add 1d12 damage per tier to the true stike attack.

    I go with 3. 1b is a modification on 1, the rest are independent suggestions.
    So the thing that I keep coming back to is that it's called "True Strike".

    There are a few things it can be balanced around:
    A) Increasing accuracy and damage
    B) Increasing accuracy only (to eventually be a guaranteed hit)
    C) Increasing damage only

    Option C doesn't make a lot of sense for a Cantrip called "True Strike". The only classes that I think would use Option B are rogue and paladin. Option A seems to be what most here have recommended.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: My DM is using this homebrew version of True Strike - too powerful?

    It's been a few months since you opened the thread. Curious what you and your DM came up with.

    I agree with whoever said to just make it a bonus action. It's way less complicated and fills a niche of "this attack really REALLY needs to land so I'll sacrifice some action economy for it" without overshadowing any particular options in the game off the top of my head (Rogues have busy bonus actions, Paladins don't necessarily have easy access to it, BB/GFB will probably do more damage and not sacrifice the bonus action, anyone with a bonus action attack would probably rather use that instead, etc.)

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: My DM is using this homebrew version of True Strike - too powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinar View Post
    It's been a few months since you opened the thread. Curious what you and your DM came up with.

    I agree with whoever said to just make it a bonus action. It's way less complicated and fills a niche of "this attack really REALLY needs to land so I'll sacrifice some action economy for it" without overshadowing any particular options in the game off the top of my head (Rogues have busy bonus actions, Paladins don't necessarily have easy access to it, BB/GFB will probably do more damage and not sacrifice the bonus action, anyone with a bonus action attack would probably rather use that instead, etc.)
    Once I pointed out the brokenness of expanding crit range, he kinda just threw the baby out with the bath water so to speak. It was a real shame because I thought it was a neat idea, but he decided it was safer to just not home brew it at all.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: My DM is using this homebrew version of True Strike - too powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by sayaijin View Post
    Once I pointed out the brokenness of expanding crit range, he kinda just threw the baby out with the bath water so to speak. It was a real shame because I thought it was a neat idea, but he decided it was safer to just not home brew it at all.
    That's a shame. If the spell was just a bonus action it would be Zephyr Strike but weaker (no ignoring OAs, no bonus movement), and hence incredibly appropriate for a cantrip. You could even make it break concentration on other spells like ZS does by making it a concentration spell, like how the various Smite spells work.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: My DM is using this homebrew version of True Strike - too powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by quindraco View Post
    That's a shame. If the spell was just a bonus action it would be Zephyr Strike but weaker (no ignoring OAs, no bonus movement), and hence incredibly appropriate for a cantrip. You could even make it break concentration on other spells like ZS does by making it a concentration spell, like how the various Smite spells work.
    Well that's the other reason. The guy who took it was AT/Bladesinger, and he started giving the rogue the Aim bonus action from Tasha's. Once Aim came online, there wasn't enough benefit for him unless it pumped up damage or accuracy in another way.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: My DM is using this homebrew version of True Strike - too powerful?

    My thought process was:

    "The next attack against that target gains a bonus to attack equal to your Proficiency. You can also spend your Bonus Action this turn to make a melee or ranged weapon attack against that target".

    That's a balanced cantrip, one that isn't only good for doing one thing and one that isn't going to be spammed every friggin' turn. It also can't be easily abused by Quicken Spell or other shenanigans.

    Make it powerful, versatile, but at a cost.

    There's also no point in complicating things by adding a ton of annoying 1d4s. RNG is already applied through the attack roll, so there's no need to overcomplicate it more than that.
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2021-05-06 at 01:21 PM.
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  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: My DM is using this homebrew version of True Strike - too powerful?

    Why this obsession with making True Strike top tier? Every suggestion I see breaks it more than it fixes it. It's as if the existence of TS is somehow offensive, why not just remove it from circulation by banning it if it's so bad?

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: My DM is using this homebrew version of True Strike - too powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by sayaijin View Post
    So my DM wanted to "fix" the cantrip True Strike, but I'm worried it is going to be too powerful.

    He's made it a weapon attack cantrip like booming blade, but it works with any proficient weapon (even ranged) and it gives +1d4 to attack roll.

    The part I'm worried about is where he's made it where it the d20+d4 is equal to or greater than 20, then he's treating the attack as a crit and the attack as magical. Then he's giving it the additional d4 at 5th, 11th, and 17th so 2d4, 3d4, and 4d4...seems like an auto crit at 17th level.

    He's saying it's balanced because it's still only ever one attack and martials would prefer multiple attacks, but there's a guy who wants to play Rogue...
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  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: My DM is using this homebrew version of True Strike - too powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by DwarfFighter View Post
    Why this obsession with making True Strike top tier? Every suggestion I see breaks it more than it fixes it. It's as if the existence of TS is somehow offensive, why not just remove it from circulation by banning it if it's so bad?
    Removing a problem is just one way of fixing it. I assume people want to still use True Strike, but it just sucks so removing True Strike doesnt also remove the desire to use True Strike.
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  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: My DM is using this homebrew version of True Strike - too powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Removing a problem is just one way of fixing it. I assume people want to still use True Strike, but it just sucks so removing True Strike doesnt also remove the desire to use True Strike.
    I don't think it's "just one way" in the sense that it's equal to the other failed attempts - it's a pretty conclusive and effective fix with arguably no negative game balance impacts. :)

    (I humbly suggest that there is no way the game is hurt by the absence of this cantrip, as it is written.)

    -DF

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: My DM is using this homebrew version of True Strike - too powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by DwarfFighter View Post
    Why this obsession with making True Strike top tier? Every suggestion I see breaks it more than it fixes it. It's as if the existence of TS is somehow offensive, why not just remove it from circulation by banning it if it's so bad?
    I can't speak for everyone, but I really like the idea of a Gish using magic to make their weapon attacks more accurate. We have cantrips that make melee attacks more powerful, but if you want more accuracy you need to use a leveled spell.

    My DM's argument was past tier one, virtually no one would use a cantrip that only allowed for one attack unless it had a rider for damage like BB or GFB. The thread accurately pointed out that he overcompensate by changing the math on crit chance, but I still like the concept of a cantrip that makes one weapon attack more accurate.

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: My DM is using this homebrew version of True Strike - too powerful?

    Personally I think changing it to bonus action and keeping its concentration is sufficient to make gishes want it as an option. They might not always want to use it in favour of something else (maintaining other concentration spells, other BA uses like dual wielding, other BA uses like Cunning Action) but that's fine. It's still something they might want in their toolkit.
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  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: My DM is using this homebrew version of True Strike - too powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by sayaijin View Post
    I can't speak for everyone, but I really like the idea of a Gish using magic to make their weapon attacks more accurate.
    Surely the RAW version of the TS does exactly that?

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  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: My DM is using this homebrew version of True Strike - too powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by DwarfFighter View Post
    Surely the RAW version of the TS does exactly that?

    -DF


    As I'm sure you already know, the trap of true strike is that unless your character benefits from having advantage (Elven Accuracy or Rogue Sneak Attack), then you're better off attacking twice as opposed to using true strike and then attacking the next turn. The only exception to this that I can think of is if a caster is using a high level spell with an attack roll, and they need it to hit.

    Therefore, the draw of "fixing" true strike is that it's such a bad spell it's practically begging to be fixed. There are many threads about it, so we don't need to get into it too much here, but the general consensus about homebrewing true strike is either
    1) Make it a bonus action, but give it some negative that makes you not spam it every turn (takes concentration)
    or
    2) Make it a blade cantrip that has a fixed bonus to hit, but scaling bonus to damage.

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    Default Re: My DM is using this homebrew version of True Strike - too powerful?

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