Best multiclass/dip options for Rune Knight?

[Mitsu]

What are some best mutlclass options for Rune Knight? I already know I will be picking Loxodon or Simic Hybrid because they can grapple 1-2 extra creatures and leave your hands free.

Should I even multiclass? And if so - when?

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Is it worth for example taking a level of rogue for expertise over something like a feat like skill expert for advantage on athletics, as you are looking a grappling? Unless you are getting more out of it than that I'd say no, particularly for the fighter class that gets more feats than any other.
Maybe if you posted more about what your vision is either mechanically or thematically it would help. But given what you posted, the range of feats available, and your access to them it seems like single class would be the way to go.

[Sol0botmate]

Multiclassing RK is not a bad idea, especially for a dip of 1-4 levels.

HOWEVER.

Rune Knight is especially packed with features on every level. Giant's Might, Extra Attack, Rune Shield, Runes, Action Surge, Extra ASI on level 6, then level 7 the strongest Runes and suddenly level 8- another ASI! 3 more levels and Extra Attack!

It's packed. Both in features and actions. You can check my Loxodon build here, but it will also work with Simic Hybrid, which works exactly the same as Loxodon as I was wrong about Simic Hybrid in my build post here: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=810

Anyway.

Dip/Multiclass should cover your weak sides. Obviously damage of RK can be solved by GWM. Controll is what he is best at. Melee combat is his jam. As tank and Support he is top tier (Hill Rune, Grapples, grapple combo with casters, Runic Shield, Storm Rune). So what is missing? Spell protection and combat vs casters is his weakness.. So this is what we want to boost!

As Fighter you want to start with as high WIS as possible. 13 is usaully what you can achieve. You want to pick RES (WIS) at some point as WIS saves are the most common saves that can disable your Rune Knight.

So if we already packed some points into WIS, then WIS-based classes are our possible dips: Clerics, Druids and Rangers.

I especially like Peace Cleric dip as Emb. Bond is just bonkers. It boosts attacks (GWM!), it boosts ability checks (Grapple/Shove!) and it boosts saving throws (WIS/CHA). 1 level gives you Bless, Shield of Faith and Emb.Bond. Bless will further boosts your GWM attacks + saves and SoF boosts your AC. One is better when fight vs casters comes in, second one more vs melee enemies. I would go no further than 4 levels here (Just to grab ASI). 4 levels is good because it gives you Silence. Now Silence is especially nasty with grappler like Loxodon or Simic Hybrid. You can cast silence on enemy casters, run to them, action surge - and grapple them. Then you can pommel them to death as there is no way a caster will get out of your grapple.

Simillar reason for Desert Druid. Here you get Enlarge/Reduce (Tasha's) to get ability to grapple Gargantual enemies faster + 1d4 to every attack, Absorb Elements (since your DEX is low you will eat a lot of damage from Evo spells/effects) for mitigating elemental burst damage and Silence (Desert) for same reason as above. But you also get here Fog Cloud. If you took Blind Fighting (good Fighting Style for grappler) then you can use it after grappling enemies into your party hazard to shield yourself from enemy magic (spells with "can see"). Last but not least - Spike Growth for dragging you enemies through it for some additional damage (even 15 feet is free 6d4 dmg on grappleded enemies)

Last is Ranger Gloom Stalker. Sadly here you would need 5 levels to get Silence. But you also get Silence + Fog Cloud here and you can also get Gloom Stalker Dread Ambusher, giving you additional attack at start of combat (great for Simic Hybrid especially as that's extra grapple or shove!) and invisibility in darkness vs darkvision enemies, which will again protect you from enemy spells in darkness. You also get second Fighting style so you can start with Defense as Fighter and only take Blind Fighting once you multiclass to Gloom Stalker to combo with Fog Cloud. And of course - Spike Growth.

Overall I think that Fighter if fine for 12 levels. You get many good things, 3 attacks and more ASI. However after level 12 Fighter struggles because magic becomes more apparent + more WIS saves starts to hit. So I would go for either:

1. Rune Knight 5/1 Peace Cleric/7 Rune Knight/3 Peace Cleric (Bless, SoF, Emb.Bond, Silence)
2. Rune Knight 12/4 Desert Druid (Enlarge/Reduce, Absorb Elements, Fog Cloud, Silence, Spike Growth)
3. Rune Knight 12/5 Gloom Stalker Ranger. (Absorb Elelements, Fog Cloud, Silence, Extra Attack at start of the turn and invisibility in darkness, second Fighting Style, Spike Growth)

This is how I plan to go with my Rune Knight but I am yet not sure which one will be best.

This will cover you well vs enemy spell-casters on top of boosting your grapplings or team support gameplay.

Druid and Ranger multiclass allow you for combos like:

1. Giant's Might->Silence->Action Surge->Grapple enemy casters. Game over for casters. GG
2. Giant's Might ->Enlarge->Action Surge->Shove Grapple Gargantual enemy and make him your... dog.
3. Giant's Might->Spike Growth->Action Surge->Grapple/Shove ->From next turn move with them on Spike Growth (if you have Long Strider that is 8d4 for each grappled crature)
4. Giant's Might->Grapple melee enemies->Action Surge->Fog Cloud. Now with Blind Fighting you don't have to shove them as you have advantage, they have disadvantage and you are protected from enemy spells so you can do your thing.
5. Giant's Might->Grapple melee enemies->Action Surge: GWM attacks with advantage in darkness because you are Gloom Stalker.

[Mitsu]

Is it worth for example taking a level of rogue for expertise over something like a feat like skill expert for advantage on athletics, as you are looking a grappling? Unless you are getting more out of it than that I'd say no, particularly for the fighter class that gets more feats than any other.

We can start with Extra non-combat feat so I took Skill Expert (Athletics), which gives me Expertise already.

Multiclassing RK is not a bad idea, especially for a dip of 1-4 levels.

HOWEVER.

Rune Knight is especially packed with features on every level. Giant's Might, Extra Attack, Rune Shield, Runes, Action Surge, Extra ASI on level 6, then level 7 the strongest Runes and suddenly level 8- another ASI! 3 more levels and Extra Attack!

It's packed. Both in features and actions. You can check my Loxodon build here, but it will also work with Simic Hybrid, which works exactly the same as Loxodon as I was wrong about Simic Hybrid in my build post here: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=810

Anyway.

Dip/Multiclass should cover your weak sides. Obviously damage of RK can be solved by GWM. Controll is what he is best at. Melee combat is his jam. As tank and Support he is top tier (Hill Rune, Grapples, grapple combo with casters, Runic Shield, Storm Rune). So what is missing? Spell protection and combat vs casters is his weakness.. So this is what we want to boost!

As Fighter you want to start with as high WIS as possible. 13 is usaully what you can achieve. You want to pick RES (WIS) at some point as WIS saves are the most common saves that can disable your Rune Knight.

So if we already packed some points into WIS, then WIS-based classes are our possible dips: Clerics, Druids and Rangers.

I especially like Peace Cleric dip as Emb. Bond is just bonkers. It boosts attacks (GWM!), it boosts ability checks (Grapple/Shove!) and it boosts saving throws (WIS/CHA). 1 level gives you Bless, Shield of Faith and Emb.Bond. Bless will further boosts your GWM attacks + saves and SoF boosts your AC. One is better when fight vs casters comes in, second one more vs melee enemies. I would go no further than 4 levels here (Just to grab ASI). 4 levels is good because it gives you Silence. Now Silence is especially nasty with grappler like Loxodon or Simic Hybrid. You can cast silence on enemy casters, run to them, action surge - and grapple them. Then you can pommel them to death as there is no way a caster will get out of your grapple.

Simillar reason for Desert Druid. Here you get Enlarge/Reduce (Tasha's) to get ability to grapple Gargantual enemies faster + 1d4 to every attack, Absorb Elements (since your DEX is low you will eat a lot of damage from Evo spells/effects) for mitigating elemental burst damage and Silence (Desert) for same reason as above. But you also get here Fog Cloud. If you took Blind Fighting (good Fighting Style for grappler) then you can use it after grappling enemies into your party hazard to shield yourself from enemy magic (spells with "can see"). Last but not least - Spike Growth for dragging you enemies through it for some additional damage (even 15 feet is free 6d4 dmg on grappleded enemies)

Last is Ranger Gloom Stalker. Sadly here you would need 5 levels to get Silence. But you also get Silence + Fog Cloud here and you can also get Gloom Stalker Dread Ambusher, giving you additional attack at start of combat (great for Simic Hybrid especially as that's extra grapple or shove!) and invisibility in darkness vs darkvision enemies, which will again protect you from enemy spells in darkness. You also get second Fighting style so you can start with Defense as Fighter and only take Blind Fighting once you multiclass to Gloom Stalker to combo with Fog Cloud. And of course - Spike Growth.

Overall I think that Fighter if fine for 12 levels. You get many good things, 3 attacks and more ASI. However after level 12 Fighter struggles because magic becomes more apparent + more WIS saves starts to hit. So I would go for either:

1. Rune Knight 5/1 Peace Cleric/7 Rune Knight/3 Peace Cleric (Bless, SoF, Emb.Bond, Silence)
2. Rune Knight 12/4 Desert Druid (Enlarge/Reduce, Absorb Elements, Fog Cloud, Silence, Spike Growth)
3. Rune Knight 12/5 Gloom Stalker Ranger. (Absorb Elelements, Fog Cloud, Silence, Extra Attack at start of the turn and invisibility in darkness, second Fighting Style, Spike Growth)

This is how I plan to go with my Rune Knight but I am yet not sure which one will be best.

This will cover you well vs enemy spell-casters on top of boosting your grapplings or team support gameplay.

Druid and Ranger multiclass allow you for combos like:

1. Giant's Might->Silence->Action Surge->Grapple enemy casters. Game over for casters. GG
2. Giant's Might ->Enlarge->Action Surge->Shove Grapple Gargantual enemy and make him your... dog.
3. Giant's Might->Spike Growth->Action Surge->Grapple/Shove ->From next turn move with them on Spike Growth (if you have Long Strider that is 8d4 for each grappled crature)
4. Giant's Might->Grapple melee enemies->Action Surge->Fog Cloud. Now with Blind Fighting you don't have to shove them as you have advantage, they have disadvantage and you are protected from enemy spells so you can do your thing.
5. Giant's Might->Grapple melee enemies->Action Surge: GWM attacks with advantage in darkness because you are Gloom Stalker.

WOW! Man, thank you so much for this. This is more than I expected! I think I will go with one of those. I was thinking about Barbarian (yeah, lame, I know...) but those options will give me way more tools to play with as Grappler! :D

I love this community!

[5eNeedsDarksun]

We can start with Extra non-combat feat so I took Skill Expert (Athletics), which gives me Expertise already.



WOW! Man, thank you so much for this. This is more than I expected! I think I will go with one of those. I was thinking about Barbarian (yeah, lame, I know...) but those options will give me way more tools to play with as Grappler! :D

I love this community!

I agree with the other poster that level 12 (or 11) is a good place to branch out if you play that long. My original thought was based on a shorter campaign. Getting your 3rd attack, to me, is what separates fighters from other martials, then adding something significant from multiple levels of another class makes sense.

[Spo]

WOW! Man, thank you so much for this. This is more than I expected! I think I will go with one of those. I was thinking about Barbarian (yeah, lame, I know...) but those options will give me way more tools to play with as Grappler! :D

I love this community!

I was also thinking of pairing this with a wild magic barbarian for some bursting with magic feel to the build but now your post is forcing me to look at other considerations.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts

[Sol0botmate]

We can start with Extra non-combat feat so I took Skill Expert (Athletics), which gives me Expertise already.



WOW! Man, thank you so much for this. This is more than I expected! I think I will go with one of those. I was thinking about Barbarian (yeah, lame, I know...) but those options will give me way more tools to play with as Grappler! :D

I love this community!

No problem. I am really big fan of Rune Knight. It's really good Fighter subclass.

Expert in Athletic at start already saves you one ASI so that is very good start!

One more thing about multiclassing Fighter is that magic items will have big impact on your decisions. Fighters usually really need magic items to scale better with something as strong as Wizard or Paladin. So maybe your DM will give some items that will help you vs spells/casters, maybe you will get Ring of Freedom of Movement (one of the best things you can give your Fighter to help him match casters), magical shield that will protect vs spells etc.

So keep that in mind, because with right magic items - you don't have to multiclass at all.

Also ask your DM about magic items in general for your campaign. If it's high magic setting/campaign - there is a big chance you will get your hands on STR magic items like Gloves of Ogre Strength or Giant's Belts. Which would help you save ASI.

One of the problems with STR melee classes is that investing in STR on ASI can be wasted as soon as you find STR magic item and realize that you wasted one or two ASI for increasing that stat.

If possible focus first on CON (it's Rune Knight great stat anyway) and see if maybe you will stumble across Ogre Gloves/Hill Giant Belt in your first 6 levels of character.

Of course in the end- play as you prefer :)

[CMCC]

Spirit Guardians meshes REALLY well with characters who can increase their size (druids/rune knights). The number of squares your SG covers grows immensely with each new size category.

I'm just gonna leave that here for you.

[Sol0botmate]

Spirit Guardians meshes REALLY well with characters who can increase their size (druids/rune knights). The number of squares your SG covers grows immensely with each new size category.

I'm just gonna leave that here for you.

While I agree with SG being awesome, I think if you multiclass at level 12 of non-caster class and looking at taking that multiclass into Tier 4 gameplay - damage from spells should not be your priority. And For Rune Knight Spike Growth actually works better than SGs:

1. You are very immobile once you grapple and you will grapple at least two enemies
2. You need to hold them inside party caster hazard (unless it's something like Storm Sphere or Sickening Radiance casted by Evoker) so you won't move much during combat
3. SGs damage is 3d8 radiant, half on WIS save. So even if both enemies you grappled fail save, that's on average 27 dmg.
4. Spike Growth on the other hand will allow you to move both enemies min. 3 squares (and you can line it up with your caster hazard) with half your speed, which will result in each of them taking 6d4 damage without any save. That is 12d4 dmg, which is 30 dmg. No save.

But if someone wants to Cleric for some other feature then yes, SGs will work very well, giving additional damage to your grappled targets and boosting your DPR.

Albeit you won't see that till level 17 though.

[CMCC]

While I agree with SG being awesome, I think if you multiclass at level 12 of non-caster class and looking at taking that multiclass into Tier 4 gameplay - damage from spells should not be your priority. And For Rune Knight Spike Growth actually works better than SGs:

1. You are very immobile once you grapple and you will grapple at least two enemies
2. You need to hold them inside party caster hazard (unless it's something like Storm Sphere or Sickening Radiance casted by Evoker) so you won't move much during combat
3. SGs damage is 3d8 radiant, half on WIS save. So even if both enemies you grappled fail save, that's on average 27 dmg.
4. Spike Growth on the other hand will allow you to move both enemies min. 3 squares (and you can line it up with your caster hazard) with half your speed, which will result in each of them taking 6d4 damage without any save. That is 12d4 dmg, which is 30 dmg. No save.

But if someone wants to Cleric for some other feature then yes, SGs will work very well, giving additional damage to your grappled targets and boosting your DPR.

Albeit you won't see that till level 17 though.

Technically level 8 is when you can start taking advantage of this. And there is no actual NEED to play a grappler rune knight. If you want to go from 36 squares to 64 squares - and basically control whole areas - you can do that. It's also that much harder for enemies to get out of your area at half speed. The damage is solid, and gets better with more enemies that you can cover. But the control/tanking aspect is very good IMO

I haven't read through all your builds, and I assume this has been addressed, but how are you dealing with the damage you take when running enemies through spike growths?

[Sol0botmate]

Technically level 8 is when you can start taking advantage of this. And there is no actual NEED to play a grappler rune knight. If you want to go from 36 squares to 64 squares - and basically control whole areas - you can do that. It's also that much harder for enemies to get out of your area at half speed. The damage is solid, and gets better with more enemies that you can cover. But the control/tanking aspect is very good IMO

I haven't read through all your builds, and I assume this has been addressed, but how are you dealing with the damage you take when running enemies through spike growths?

While there is no NEED I think you lose too much on Rune Knight control by not going for 3rd attack. Not only this increases your damage outpute but also allows you for more Controll vs enemies in one turn.

Example: With 3 Attacks + Action Surge 3 attacks Rune Knight Simic Hybrid (or Loxodon) can in single turn:

1. Grapple 3 enemies, Action Surge: Shove 3 enemies. 3 enemies 0 speed, prone, disadvantage on attacks, advantage for team. Party Wizard cast Wall of Fire - let them burn.
2. Take out Javelin, throw on enemy caster - activate Rune of Fire. Grapple two enemies, Action Surge: shove two enemies, 3rd attac: attack with GWM and advantage one of shoved enemies. Result: One enemy restrained, 2 shoved+grappled. Use Reaction on Stone Rune. One enemy charmed.
3. Grapple 1 enemy as one attack (boss), shove him at second, atttack at third. Action Surge: Attack 3 more times. Result: enemy shoved+grappled, 4x GWM attacks with Advantage turn one
4. Grapple 1 enemy (boss), shove him at second attack, third attack throw javelin at enemy castaster, activate fire Rune. Reaction: Stone Rune. Action Surge: attack 3x with Advantage shoved boss.
5. Level 15 RN with 3 attacks and Action surge. Attack two times with javelins, activate 2x Fire Rune, restrain 2 enemies, reaction: Stone Rune, charm one. Attack with grapple another one. Action surge, shoved him. Second attack -grapple another one, third attack - shove. Next turn: Stone Rune on another enemy to Charm.
Restult after 1 turn + beginning of 2nd: 2 enemies shoved and grappled, 2 enemy casters restrained, 2 enemies charmed.

Hence why I think Rune Knight benefits greatly from level 11 and 3rd attack. It gives him more opportunities to grapple and control enemies on battlefield before they can react and posses a thread to party.

As for Spike Growth:

You run enemies on the edge of Spike Growth obviously, not inside it. They are grappled so you stay on save edge of Spike Growth and drag them along first squars where SG starts.